That 60 minute feeling

[Van wink 2,994]

Becoming a regular feature of games at CR where I'm looking at my watch around 60 mins and thinking we need some fresh legs on here. Happens so often and the whole place just gets flatter and flatter, we sit deeper and deeper, and we all see the same thing repeated. The crowd tried to lift the game today but its so hard when players are nervous, sitting back and looking drained of energy.

One request to Daniel, please FFS make some subs earlier on, when it's so obvious we are running out of steam

[sonyc 5,489]

One thing that Lambert always seemed to do was make subs  between the 60'th to 65 minute. It often kept it changed the momentum. It's the only criticism I have of DF. I hope he changes it.

[daly 500]

No chance of that happening 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Yep.. lost more points from being one nil up than any other team. Made tough work against a really poor side today 

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

Yeah, much as I love Farke I really think he could be proactive with his subs more often. He'll often roll the dice a bit if we're losing, but it's no coincidence that we've lost so many points from winning positions this season.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

The bigger issue is why don't we have players capable of 90 mins football? 

[Il Pirata 249]

100% agree with the OP. 

I'd be really surprised if anyone can make an argument for Farke's decision to essentially not to make any substitutions. 

We've been punished too many times by teams finding a second wind, whilst we fatigue. It was unnecessarily close to happening again today. It feels like we have self created disadvantage. 

Would love to know Farke's thoughts on this. Be nice if Archant could press the issue a little. 

[Il Pirata 249]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

The bigger issue is why don't we have players capable of 90 mins football? 

Not sure if your being facetious..... But it isn't a case of that, when the opposition uses their full entitlement of substitutions before we've made one, there's a good argument  to support their team being fresher than ours. Simply put, 30% fresher! That's a potentially huge competitive advantage. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

36 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Becoming a regular feature of games at CR where I'm looking at my watch around 60 mins and thinking we need some fresh legs on here. Happens so often and the whole place just gets flatter and flatter, we sit deeper and deeper, and we all see the same thing repeated. The crowd tried to lift the game today but its so hard when players are nervous, sitting back and looking drained of energy.

One request to Daniel, please FFS make some subs earlier on, when it's so obvious we are running out of steam

I'm really not sure I agree with your assessment of today's game Van wink. Yes, Bournemouth had a little flurry roughly around the 60 minute mark, but after that we got totally on top again - Teemu missed a clear one-on-one, Duda really should have scored and their keeper made a great save from Emi.  If you had been the manager today who would you have taken off at or before the 60 minute mark and who would you have replaced them with from our options on the bench? 

[Van wink 2,994]

4 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'm really not sure I agree with your assessment of today's game Van wink. Yes, Bournemouth had a little flurry roughly around the 60 minute mark, but after that we got totally on top again - Teemu missed a clear one-on-one, Duda really should have scored and their keeper made a great save from Emi.  If you had been the manager today who would you have taken off at or before the 60 minute mark and who would you have replaced them with from our options on the bench? 

We went through a 10 to 15 minute period when we hardly got out of our own half, and that was against 10 men! Perversely Bens' red card seemed to up the energy levels. Who to take off is a matter for the manager, if it had been me maybe Kenny would have been the first to have a rest. 

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

Godfrey's red card probably scuppered what plans Farke had. He must be furious with him as that meant he didn't know whether to stick or twist. In general though I think game management and substitutions are Farke's weekness. 

[Nono 19]

What is the obsession with hating McLean. 

No way he should have come off. 

 

[Il Pirata 249]

Cantwell for Hernandez 65 minutes should be a pretty standard substitution. Cantwell's performance drops off a cliff around the hour mark. Probably due to his first half work rate, but we end up carrying him. Completely unnecessary. Hernandez should start for me, but he has all the attributes for a perfect impact sub. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

We played 45 minutes of the game with a man advantage so there is really no excuse for performance dropping of. It should have been the reverse. But I do agree that DF baffles with his substitutions and their timing.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

15 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Cantwell for Hernandez 65 minutes should be a pretty standard substitution. Cantwell's performance drops off a cliff around the hour mark. Probably due to his first half work rate, but we end up carrying him. Completely unnecessary. Hernandez should start for me, but he has all the attributes for a perfect impact sub. 

That's just a weird post in my eyes Il Pirata. In the last 10 minutes of today's game Cantwell (more than any other Norwich player) stepped up to the plate and saw us across the line. He was still putting in 100% effort - making forward runs and defending from the front. He won us a crucial late corner with a great piece of skill and robbed Adam Smith on the half way line and drove forward leading Smith to cynically hack him down and get booked. (Both these bits of play took vital time off the clock and got us on the front foot late in the game). 

[hampton canary 24]

He also refuses to ever leave a player on the halfway line for opposition corners and free kicks. Having 10 men in the box is a hindrance in my opinion as real defenders often have their own players getting in the way. How many clearance headers have Buendia and Cantwell ever made, leave one on the halfway line and you immediately take 2 opposition players out of the equation. 

[All the Germans 1,075]

31 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Cantwell for Hernandez 65 minutes should be a pretty standard substitution. Cantwell's performance drops off a cliff around the hour mark. Probably due to his first half work rate, but we end up carrying him. Completely unnecessary. Hernandez should start for me, but he has all the attributes for a perfect impact sub. 

Hernandez should have 100% been on prior to the sending off and the obvious replacement is either Cantwell, Buendia or Duda. I would have removed one of those; probably Emi, because, as good as he is with the ball, when we're winning, the likelihood that he will throw a strop when he gets tackled / fouled / lose the ball and not track back potentially outweighs his massive benefit of being magic with the ball. However,  today, as others have said, Cantwell ran around all day and was one of the few to keep going full speed, even at the end. His running disrupted them and helped see the game out.

[lake district canary 4,531]

5 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Hernandez should have 100% been on prior to the sending off and the obvious replacement is either Cantwell, Buendia or Duda. I would have removed one of those; probably Emi, because, as good as he is with the ball, when we're winning, the likelihood that he will throw a strop when he gets tackled / fouled / lose the ball and not track back potentially outweighs his massive benefit of being magic with the ball. However,  today, as others have said, Cantwell ran around all day and was one of the few to keep going full speed, even at the end. His running disrupted them and helped see the game out.

Agree with all this. Also, Emi had been yellow carded and ran the risk of getting another if he put in a tired challenge late in the game.

[Hairy Canary 668]

49 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Cantwell for Hernandez 65 minutes should be a pretty standard substitution. Cantwell's performance drops off a cliff around the hour mark. Probably due to his first half work rate, but we end up carrying him. Completely unnecessary. Hernandez should start for me, but he has all the attributes for a perfect impact sub. 

I know football is all about opinions but this is close to being perverse! Cantwell was constantly on the front foot throughout the game and in the last five minutes, when several others were flagging, he twice drove deep into opposition territory and won us a corner and a free kick. His energy levels never dropped from where I sat.

the last two appearances from Onel have been his usual mixture of exhilarating and frustration. I can certainly see why he didn't come on today.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Hairy Canary

[BaltimoreBird 127]

Calling for Cantwell or Emi is ridiculous. They were the two that could take the ball and kill the clock.

Putting on Rupp or Trybull for Duda and moving McLean up to the 10 was what I believe to be the first move to be made, but the red card threw off the plan. 

You couldn't argue bringing on Onel too, but doing so because you say Cantwell's work rate dropped is criminal. He got us over the line.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

6 hours ago, Nono said:

What is the obsession with hating McLean. 

No way he should have come off. 

 

He’s the latest scapegoat.

He was superb in the first half and hasn’t got the credit he deserves. Interceptions, headers and work rate were top class

[BarcelonaCanary 3]

Totally agree with this, but would that 60 min slump happen with 5 at back, 2 in holding midfield and then 2 behind and Pukki as the outlets? 3 attacking midfielders isn’t needed and would be better putting another at the back so wing backs have cover to bomb on, especially now Hanley will probably come back in who needs support, especially on oppo breaks? 

[Il Pirata 249]

On 18/01/2020 at 21:05, Thirsty Lizard said:

That's just a weird post in my eyes Il Pirata. In the last 10 minutes of today's game Cantwell (more than any other Norwich player) stepped up to the plate and saw us across the line. He was still putting in 100% effort - making forward runs and defending from the front. He won us a crucial late corner with a great piece of skill and robbed Adam Smith on the half way line and drove forward leading Smith to cynically hack him down and get booked. (Both these bits of play took vital time off the clock and got us on the front foot late in the game). 

Fair enough, I clearly got it wrong on this occasion. I didn't watch the game, but based my opinion of the evidence of other games I've been to this season where Cantwell has clearly been the player to fade first due to fatigue, and the obvious player to make way for Hernandez. Perhaps its more an away from home thing, where the players have to work that extra bit harder. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Il Pirata

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

8 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Fair enough, I clearly got it wrong on this occasion. I didn't watch the game, but based my opinion of the evidence of other games I've been to this season where Cantwell has clearly been the player to fade first due to fatigue, and the obvious player to make way for Hernandez. Perhaps its more an away from home thing, where the players have to work that extra bit harder. 

Fair do's Il Pirata..........

[Pugin 601]

38 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Fair enough, I clearly got it wrong on this occasion. I didn't watch the game, but based my opinion of the evidence of other games I've been to this season where Cantwell has clearly been the player to fade first due to fatigue, and the obvious player to make way for Hernandez. Perhaps its more an away from home thing, where the players have to work that extra bit harder. 

All of these things are measured, scrutinised and analysed on the day of or the day after games so that Daniel has detailed statistical data for when they debrief the game as a group and as individuals. This is no secret and no different from all clubs at our level. Cantwell's workrate is on a par with top players in his position in the EPL and indeed world football. If you know where and how to look, all of this data is available. Any player whose workrate flagged after 65 or 70 minutes would be immediately evident.   

[Il Pirata 249]

19 minutes ago, Pugin said:

All of these things are measured, scrutinised and analysed on the day of or the day after games so that Daniel has detailed statistical data for when they debrief the game as a group and as individuals. This is no secret and no different from all clubs at our level. Cantwell's workrate is on a par with top players in his position in the EPL and indeed world football. If you know where and how to look, all of this data is available. Any player whose workrate flagged after 65 or 70 minutes would be immediately evident.   

As ever, statistic's present a different angle and make for some interesting reading. However, they can overshadow what actually happens. They are very black and white, and often fail to accurately represent or quantify dynamic factors such as players roles with systems and their effect on the team as a whole. 

I certainly don't need statistics to disprove what I saw from Cantwell at Bournemouth (A), Everton and Leicester, where he noticeably faded around the 60-70 minute mark. As I've said before, this is probably to do with the amount of work he does earlier in the game. You might argue that he consistently covers more ground than most, and stats probably back this up. But I saw him a yard slower to the ball, out of position more often, and less effective in possession - of which stats will not show. 

This isn't a Cantwell bash by the way! 

[hogesar 9,616]

I think it probably points more to a lack of quality on the bench as opposed to Farke not wanting to make subs.

Also worth noting that against Bournemouth we were still creating chances and controlling the game in reality.

I imagine with Duda and Rupp bought in, alongside hopefully a fit Drmic for the rest of the season, we'll likely start to see more changes in games.

[Il Pirata 249]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think it probably points more to a lack of quality on the bench as opposed to Farke not wanting to make subs.

Also worth noting that against Bournemouth we were still creating chances and controlling the game in reality.

I imagine with Duda and Rupp bought in, alongside hopefully a fit Drmic for the rest of the season, we'll likely start to see more changes in games.

I wouldn't put Hernandez in the 'lack of quality category.' He's the player most want to see come on, and with reasoned logic. 

[hogesar 9,616]

14 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

I wouldn't put Hernandez in the 'lack of quality category.' He's the player most want to see come on, and with reasoned logic. 

I think Hernandez is strong and quick but this season has proven to be far less effective at actually creating or scoring chances than Todd.

[Il Pirata 249]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think Hernandez is strong and quick but this season has proven to be far less effective at actually creating or scoring chances than Todd.

Fair opinion. I'd argue he hasn't had as much opportunity though, and the attributes he offers (which you mention above), would be hugely beneficial with half an hour to go against tiring defenders. The point isn't so much Todd or Onel, but Farke's inability to effectively utilise both at the right times. 

We don't need to be 0-3 down for Henandez to come on and have the same effect he did against Forest last season, for example. We lost too many points over the Christmas period reacting too slow to changes in the balance of games.