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What is it you realistically want, expect, and demand from your club

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4 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

My name isn't Stuart Webber and I've never threatened to punch anyone - stop being silly. 

Stop telling City fans to go elsewhere just because they do not agree with you or the board. Equally silly.

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4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The club is taking advantage of income streams as and when they are available, like any other good business does, that is all.

Ashamed? Really?  Or are you talking about 

He raised a good point though.. 

Edited by Kenny Foggo

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Be wary, people, of the Marcus Evans model. His initial interest was directed towards Southampton FC, attracted possibly by the acquiring their training at Marchwood, the old Sealand complex down towards the periphery of the New Forest. Prime land in a beautiful area potentially worth many multi millions, subject to planning. Evans and Southampton fell through, I forget exactly why and probably the real reason remains undeclared

Evans' attention turned to Ipswich Town, with its 50 acres of training grounds in affluent Rushmere. The club and its assets were acquired  for a written down cost of something in excess of £6m. The football club and the real estate at Rushmere were swiftly legally separated. A cynic would regard Rushmere as Evans' insurance policy. A bigger cynic would regard it less charitably.

The same issues would be relevant to any sale of Norwich City. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

It was £55 until quite recently. Perhaps it was reassessed on promotion to reflect the prem tv monies and parachute payments that are guaranteed for the next few years!

Of course most of us (including the owners obviously) got our shares for much less than that back in the day although i'm not sure I ever even received a share certificate!

 

@PurpleCanary as well.

There is no defined share price. From the canaries.co.uk faq on shares:

What is the value of my shares?

Norwich City Football Club is an unlisted company and therefore there is no published market share price. The Canaries Trust often purchase NCFC Club shares and therefore may wish to make an offer to purchase your shares.

Click-Here.png to visit their website. Alternatively, please email them at: shares@canariestrust.org.

Please be advised that your shares are worth the price that anybody is prepared to purchase them at, so please feel free to explore options.

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32 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Of course I want that. I want to win every game. I just don't believe getting rid of what we've got and replacing it with an unknown but richer alternative will get that.

When I look at comparable clubs who have that I see one in four who achieve more than us. If you find me a 4/1 shot from the weekends football that may help sway me...

Bottom line is this boils down to what we put our faith in. I always go for people above money. Proven people even more so. 

How many of those comparable clubs have been promoted 3 times to the premier league in the last decade Nutty but unable to stay there?

I would actually accept the argument that last season shows that a rich owner is not necessarily the be all and end all to getting out of the championship. Leeds and Brentford are other decent recent examples of that - they have not spent stupid money under their current regimes either (except maybe Leeds on their coach) but one should get promoted this season.

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

How many of those comparable clubs have been promoted 3 times to the premier league in the last decade Nutty but unable to stay there?

 

None. Which makes our owners three times as successful as theirs.

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9 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:
4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The club is taking advantage of income streams as and when they are available, like any other good business does, that is all.

Ashamed? Really?  Or are you talking about 

He raised a good point though.. 

Not really. All he did was rubbish the club's ethos out of hand, saying it was a lie we are self funded - but we are......we don't have anyone pumping money in and any money we do get is all earned through what the club does itself in the course of it's business. You can count parachute payments in that because if we hadn't been so successful on the pitch, we would not be in the position to get that payment if we go down. Then he said our policy was as unscrupulous as the big clubs who rely on billionares....really? And finally said he wanted a club to be proud of and was that too much to ask for, as if he didn't think he had that now.  Someone that sour at our club given we had the best season any of us can remember last season and can't understand the policy the club has looking forwards, without twisting it beyond reason, has real issues, or really just out to dis the club for the sake of it. 

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1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Your quite right again. Do you think this message board is a true reflection of how most Norwich fans think ? They can go with the model but the regime must and always must stay the same. 
 

Only, he's not quite right. Because the case, whichever way you look at it, isn't that for 'every successful takeover there's a bad one'. It's actually, for every successful takeover theres 3, maybe even 4 bad one's.

For our fans to turn and want to take a gamble on that (more than just a couple of posters on here and the facebook groups, i'm talking the 25k at Carrow Road each week), we're either going to want much better odds or things are going to have to get so bad under our existing ownership that a 4/1 stab at the future of our club will seem a good punt.

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

But again, how many people are buying football clubs for the ROI? 

If we accept that it's very few and largely further down the pile (which is my view too).

Then the question becomes, how many people out there are likely to want to buy Norwich as some kind of soft power exercise (vanity, political, whatever) given that it's geographically isolated, has practically zero international profile and is likely to cost a lot to buy and many more times that to take to the next level?

That's the reason I agree wholeheartedly with BigFish - Cambridge United tick pretty much all of the boxes.

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The following is taken from the 2019 Blackburn accounts. The Venkys bought mid-table Premiership Blackburn for £23 million and cleared a debt of £20 million. They now have a mid-table Championship club and debts of £130 million (either that or the Venkys have put in £108 million that they'll never see back).

 

image.png.fce7df2915ef190e766ad546ad0a64ac.png

image.png.184cb6b9f370b60562acd95b15b3069e.png

 

 

 

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/tSxQKk0XcPCQc3WEr1T8E_YosWI9XSFQbloDm_aDRHc/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KHQXGGXD%2F20200115%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200115T154615Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEO3%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQD1KpL%2FUfqhoFPf9krq7Dr4ykkkn3hRZ7dPlSnBs9%2FZKwIhAOynD2I%2FgU%2ByqjR1wIP%2F79JhBn8lB3%2BhiP2yLpjwcJyFKrQDCHYQAhoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyCsnAwjLxWGLVlZ5wqkQNJ3RApGG4T1uZAuw414CldtGvJgQbbNvfUkVAYdqZeomPIvMLdCpbcGZ23xoGXWj4A4QKvmWDlRN5hfE%2F3pfmOH4wF%2F4TonwME7a3rtxvQdXR%2BSg8GKc0cXsnfC8SK3e9ZTjbBFAaf8Uk8N5FCMXhuiMIj%2FsqncRb40MZdx62%2FuhOsNOm2Kr94QT98gIvx%2F9bSgCMt1B4PzoQSmaS%2B2Y7kIjejr1oPzYzf1nxvz32DIKEHuKznvvH4QQKYzym%2Fkjxsz9qUt9APojyTL0lECpT3%2BQWn2mpKKnUkKl95Ptd6EFuOwomb2DgOqsq4R9TQYeqd16ZBfQDAhLneeN6B3ZJPAU%2Fwl%2BGiYWg1T6jEl4k7N65GJ8AEnYvXEx8%2B5t3MZaz%2FBt9y4bVbyYDSpC4wcPegBSQ8IYKFTGLNjURaDAsvznwisS5o0ltw6FeZiGgKi4duAuUmjmswqdVSgTZJjacTqMwzBPuxVz30A5ab%2FYjHuOhJYyfgt%2BWr11HpAfrgv4%2BD3iI7%2FaMmxG8ma%2FAOtDB%2BSzD0ifzwBTrqAWt%2FPP23KMe9gQQTMa1J%2BG1P2IDyRnhwX0Z8JOoIPFIDwbhl9ulI4dM5KESBGsf1nkqF8hbFT0UXMI8iR9%2F89Q%2BVqxbavmYm%2FHyU7T477uaLP4gCrYPOXrKB4kdEj2nNVoWXU6TUv%2BIpo22IY%2FdfSX%2FTqJUHpLvSPFvW7KtkSY7xHOURVAKgIGbhMkZfaLMGqoUTDNm7Zq2Y2K0HU1CQWdU6nTJ5BobzH3Fws43mUSnZvUFuMdg6kvpuKv7fMDLyHr97Fgo%2FeA0jJ%2BnOisU5cbpcSLlM0cNIshnR3qRESBFtyT0HrwnKjnZ4gQ%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=edbae12fb6b9fad67690a109e2d65384a499068e6ffd865ee8c7e7891d3de635

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1 hour ago, ROBFLECK said:

Don't look at me as a "money first" poster , yet I think we pay enough as NCFC fans!!! They're the ones that should have invested in players before the season started imho... Do I mean "splash out silly money" ... no preferably not , but they should and I think could have done more than they did! I find this frustrating , especially in the plight that we're in now.

So we're on the same page here. You'd like our present successful owners to be richer. My apologies buddy, I thought you wanted someone unknown with more money.

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17 minutes ago, kirku said:

If we accept that it's very few and largely further down the pile (which is my view too).

Then the question becomes, how many people out there are likely to want to buy Norwich as some kind of soft power exercise (vanity, political, whatever) given that it's geographically isolated, has practically zero international profile and is likely to cost a lot to buy and many more times that to take to the next level?

That's the reason I agree wholeheartedly with BigFish - Cambridge United tick pretty much all of the boxes.

We know that our club, where we are in the world, has made transfers more difficult for us, in terms of getting players in. That's been highlighted by those in charge at the relevant times. I imagine the same applies to finding a billionaire who'd like to give us all their money, only it's much harder to find them in the first place.

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Venkey's were lauded on here at the time as being a great example of someone who had no history with Blackburn. It was said "they never set foot in Lancashire before" as a plus point and snub to our owners beliefs.

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1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Stop telling City fans to go elsewhere just because they do not agree with you or the board. Equally silly.

It's the first time I've ever done that Kenny. To say that you're 'ashamed' of our club is in my view ridiculous. 

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48 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

The following is taken from the 2019 Blackburn accounts. The Venkys bought mid-table Premiership Blackburn for £23 million and cleared a debt of £20 million. They now have a mid-table Championship club and debts of £130 million (either that or the Venkys have put in £108 million that they'll never see back).

 

image.png.fce7df2915ef190e766ad546ad0a64ac.png

image.png.184cb6b9f370b60562acd95b15b3069e.png

 

 

 

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/tSxQKk0XcPCQc3WEr1T8E_YosWI9XSFQbloDm_aDRHc/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KHQXGGXD%2F20200115%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200115T154615Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEO3%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQD1KpL%2FUfqhoFPf9krq7Dr4ykkkn3hRZ7dPlSnBs9%2FZKwIhAOynD2I%2FgU%2ByqjR1wIP%2F79JhBn8lB3%2BhiP2yLpjwcJyFKrQDCHYQAhoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyCsnAwjLxWGLVlZ5wqkQNJ3RApGG4T1uZAuw414CldtGvJgQbbNvfUkVAYdqZeomPIvMLdCpbcGZ23xoGXWj4A4QKvmWDlRN5hfE%2F3pfmOH4wF%2F4TonwME7a3rtxvQdXR%2BSg8GKc0cXsnfC8SK3e9ZTjbBFAaf8Uk8N5FCMXhuiMIj%2FsqncRb40MZdx62%2FuhOsNOm2Kr94QT98gIvx%2F9bSgCMt1B4PzoQSmaS%2B2Y7kIjejr1oPzYzf1nxvz32DIKEHuKznvvH4QQKYzym%2Fkjxsz9qUt9APojyTL0lECpT3%2BQWn2mpKKnUkKl95Ptd6EFuOwomb2DgOqsq4R9TQYeqd16ZBfQDAhLneeN6B3ZJPAU%2Fwl%2BGiYWg1T6jEl4k7N65GJ8AEnYvXEx8%2B5t3MZaz%2FBt9y4bVbyYDSpC4wcPegBSQ8IYKFTGLNjURaDAsvznwisS5o0ltw6FeZiGgKi4duAuUmjmswqdVSgTZJjacTqMwzBPuxVz30A5ab%2FYjHuOhJYyfgt%2BWr11HpAfrgv4%2BD3iI7%2FaMmxG8ma%2FAOtDB%2BSzD0ifzwBTrqAWt%2FPP23KMe9gQQTMa1J%2BG1P2IDyRnhwX0Z8JOoIPFIDwbhl9ulI4dM5KESBGsf1nkqF8hbFT0UXMI8iR9%2F89Q%2BVqxbavmYm%2FHyU7T477uaLP4gCrYPOXrKB4kdEj2nNVoWXU6TUv%2BIpo22IY%2FdfSX%2FTqJUHpLvSPFvW7KtkSY7xHOURVAKgIGbhMkZfaLMGqoUTDNm7Zq2Y2K0HU1CQWdU6nTJ5BobzH3Fws43mUSnZvUFuMdg6kvpuKv7fMDLyHr97Fgo%2FeA0jJ%2BnOisU5cbpcSLlM0cNIshnR3qRESBFtyT0HrwnKjnZ4gQ%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=edbae12fb6b9fad67690a109e2d65384a499068e6ffd865ee8c7e7891d3de635

This goes back to my earlier point though about how this is some big money making exercise for Venky's.

They've loaned the club £108m, plus £43m initial outlay from what you're saying.

So unless they believe they can sell Blackburn for £150m or they think Ewood park is worth some crazy amount then they can only really think about making their money back by reestablishing them in the Premier League.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Only, he's not quite right. Because the case, whichever way you look at it, isn't that for 'every successful takeover there's a bad one'. It's actually, for every successful takeover theres 3, maybe even 4 bad one's.

For our fans to turn and want to take a gamble on that (more than just a couple of posters on here and the facebook groups, i'm talking the 25k at Carrow Road each week), we're either going to want much better odds or things are going to have to get so bad under our existing ownership that a 4/1 stab at the future of our club will seem a good punt.

Where’s your facts from ? And again your just slightly tweaking what Nutty Says as always. 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

This goes back to my earlier point though about how this is some big money making exercise for Venky's.

They've loaned the club £108m, plus £43m initial outlay from what you're saying.

So unless they believe they can sell Blackburn for £150m or they think Ewood park is worth some crazy amount then they can only really think about making their money back by reestablishing them in the Premier League.

More likely they expected to be able to remain a "established  Premier League team", failed, the money is gone, a sunk cost, and they cannot get out without realising the loss.

They are now stuck with the debt and no way out.

A salutory lesson

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20 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Ever since the club/company became a PLC (which just stands for public limited company) some time (I think) around 2000 it has been subject to the Takeover Code.

So as soon as anyone acquires 30 per cent of the shares - which by definition would happen if they bought S&J's majority stake - they have to offer to buy all the other shares. And at the highest price they paid to get to 30 per cent. So if they paid S&J £100 they would have to offer that to all. 

Of course these other shareholders don't have to sell, unless the new owner gets to - I think - 90 per cent, in which case they have no choice but to sell.

I don't think this makes it harder or easier for the club to be taken over, as circumstances stand. In essence you take over the club by buying out S&J, and if you are willing and financially able to do that then I doubt the potential threat, which might well not materialise, or at least not entirely, of also having to buy out the other shareholders would bother you.

PS.To add, Jim, re someone buying new shares instead, I was’t quite clear from the wording what point you were making. Yes, that would be better for the club, in that the money would go to the club rather than to S&J and the other existing shareholders, if they wanted to sell.

However, not certain but I think that if done that way the 30 per cent rule would still come into play, so an offer would have to be made for the 600,000-plus existing shares, including those held by S&J, potentially costing the would-be owner more. At the extreme end, if it was £100 a share, then £160m instead of £60m?! It is late but I think that all makes sense...

To add clarity to your response, and Jim’s queries, the last time that the Club allocated any new shares at £100 each was back in 2014.

Taking a couple of steps back however, to circa 2009, when the Club had just been relegated to League One and was struggling with debts of circa £23m, mainly the Aviva bond, the Board proposed an AGM resolution, passed by shareholders in 2010, enabling the Board to allocate up to 1,000,000 ordinary shares without further notice to shareholders. The resolution lasted five years and was renewed again in 2015.

In theory therefore, the Board could more than double the existing share capital of the Club, with the investor acquiring an approximate 2/3rds majority and a significant cash injection.

Obviously, any potential buyer, if they existed, would have to satisfy whatever conditions the existing majority shareholders would want to impose.

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1 minute ago, GMF said:

To add clarity to your response, and Jim’s queries, the last time that the Club allocated any new shares at £100 each was back in 2014.

Taking a couple of steps back however, to circa 2009, when the Club had just been relegated to League One and was struggling with debts of circa £23m, mainly the Aviva bond, the Board proposed an AGM resolution, passed by shareholders in 2010, enabling the Board to allocate up to 1,000,000 ordinary shares without further notice to shareholders. The resolution lasted five years and was renewed again in 2015.

In theory therefore, the Board could more than double the existing share capital of the Club, with the investor acquiring an approximate 2/3rds majority and a significant cash injection.

Obviously, any potential buyer, if they existed, would have to satisfy whatever conditions the existing majority shareholders would want to impose.

Thanks. I was sure as I could be about the  up to 1m and the fact that the board could make these shares available without going back to shareholders but had clean forgotten the five-year bit, and my files are in as much of a mess as our defence. One imagines that might be renewed.

The reason I and probably others use the £100 figure is that as far as I know it is the latest mentioned by the club as an official figure, albeit several years ago. Plus it is a nice round number that allows for easy calculations! I have never assumed it would be the price demanded in a takeover.

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6 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

I can see the point you're making, but I respectfully disagree with it. If it does happen, I'll happily hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

To quote the excellent point made by @BigFishI seem to recall Tony Bloom saying it cost him £200 million to get Brighton to where they are which gives some idea of the sums you are looking at. Who is going to pay that to come to Norwich? Who is going to splash that level of cash when one bad season puts it all at risk?

I’d imagine they may have splashed at the start of the Season, but we won’t be as attractive now. Didn’t Delia say she wasn’t going to profit on a sale of the club? Or have I dreamt that up?

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1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Where’s your facts from ? And again your just slightly tweaking what Nutty Says as always. 

Where did the 'facts' you originally agreed with come from, then?

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4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Not really. All he did was rubbish the club's ethos out of hand, saying it was a lie we are self funded - but we are......we don't have anyone pumping money in and any money we do get is all earned through what the club does itself in the course of it's business. You can count parachute payments in that because if we hadn't been so successful on the pitch, we would not be in the position to get that payment if we go down. Then he said our policy was as unscrupulous as the big clubs who rely on billionares....really? And finally said he wanted a club to be proud of and was that too much to ask for, as if he didn't think he had that now.  Someone that sour at our club given we had the best season any of us can remember last season and can't understand the policy the club has looking forwards, without twisting it beyond reason, has real issues, or really just out to dis the club for the sake of it. 

I can see his point of being proud of what we are doing in this league.. not that great is it. As a supporter he has as much right to his views as anybody and should not be subject to the "go somewhere else" just because he disagrees with you and others with similar views to yours. I don't Fully agree with him but I would not be so pompous as to tell him to go elsewhere.

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41 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I can see his point of being proud of what we are doing in this league.. not that great is it. As a supporter he has as much right to his views as anybody and should not be subject to the "go somewhere else" just because he disagrees with you and others with similar views to yours. I don't Fully agree with him but I would not be so pompous as to tell him to go elsewhere.

All well and good, but it wasn't me who suggested he go elsewhere, I just asked the question why so ashamed or was he talking about Binwich.

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26 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

All well and good, but it wasn't me who suggested he go elsewhere, I just asked the question why so ashamed or was he talking about Binwich.

True

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7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Of course I want that. I want to win every game. I just don't believe getting rid of what we've got and replacing it with an unknown but richer alternative will get that.

When I look at comparable clubs who have that I see one in four who achieve more than us. If you find me a 4/1 shot from the weekends football that may help sway me...

Bottom line is this boils down to what we put our faith in. I always go for people above money. Proven people even more so. 

Yes Delia is consistent, we know what we're getting. Proven at relegation. 

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24 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

More promotions than relegations. Some people just choose to see the glass half empty.

Some just accept all the relegations as the norm. It’s such a waste after the the effort to get there. 

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2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Some just accept all the relegations as the norm. It’s such a waste after the the effort to get there. 

As opposed to just not experiencing promotion at all - like a lot of similar clubs are size with wealthy owners are dealing with.

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I'd like better queues to the beers. Better toilets. On a superfluous level.

But on a more fundamental level, Premier League mid table enjoyment. Because it's never guaranteed but it's more nail biting and competitive than the Championship because ultimately we'll always be playing to avoid relegation, which, for me, is more fun (when you consider dining at the table of the elite) than aiming for a top 6 Champ position beating the likes of (no disrespect) Rotherham, Bolton, Blackburns et al season on season.

We have one of the best infrastructures we've ever had before, so for me, beyond the above what else is there?!

Cheaper official merch maybe?

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