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Hardhouse44

What is it you realistically want, expect, and demand from your club

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

The sale of Maddison was very important, but you have to take into account the sale of Pritchard and the Murphy twins as well, all young players being sold on for significant amounts. Imagine if the finances of the club had been in good state before we sold them, the net income from their sales (over £50m) would have been available for developing further.  That is the position we are in today - a healthy club with assets we can sell for big money to attract new young players to the club and bring them through.

As for things being bad in the past, yes, I would agree that club policies over the years have been flawed - but we all accepted McNally's idea of every penny going into buying players - and that got us into the financial mess in the first place. I agree that Worthy was kept too long, I agree that the Hughton appointment was not a good one as it meant complete change rather than trying to build on Lambert's philosophy (although of course I supported Hughton while here). I even agree in hindsight that the Gunn experiment was not good, although I think the idea was a good one with a group of Norwich ex-players in charge to develop a Norwich way of playing. So yes, mistakes have been made, but if you look at the present, what is actually happening now at the club, we are in the best place we have ever been in terms of saleable assets and in overall stability. 

I know we are struggling in the top league and lack of big finance is a factor, but overall the club is in a very, very healthy situation for developing itself, over a number of years. Even now, if we sold just four players and netted £120m plus, add the parachute payment if we are relegated, whatever that is - £60m? - we then have a pool of £180m+ that does not need to be spent on paying debts or non-sensical big contracts - it can be put into developing the squad, helping buy in other young talent to develop, even developing the stadium. We have a good thing going for us.

Do you really think that any of that will happen? I cannot see us spending much money on anything. I hope I am wrong and the club blossoms and comes back stronger, but I just feel there’s going to be some form of an excuse coming from the owners and the sales money just evaporates for wages over the years and we are left languishing in the championship miles behind richer clubs. Again, I hope I am wrong, I like being wrong as a pessimist.

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Just now, king canary said:

I think the initial issue in this thread was it seemed to be highlighted as an example of our owners investing- which it clearly wasn't. In fact the scheme was there because of their unwillingness to invest.

Unwilling or unable?I'm not so sure Delia could pull the money required  to  revamp  Colney out of her derriere.  It was a success,  mission accomplished and all parties satisfied I dont get the issue. If someone wrongly claimed it was their investment,  that's their mistake, soneones opinion being incorrect  doesn't alter the facts, any more than Jimbos false assertions. 

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1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Unwilling or unable?I'm not so sure Delia could pull the money required  to  revamp  Colney out of her derriere.  It was a success,  mission accomplished and all parties satisfied I dont get the issue. If someone wrongly claimed it was their investment,  that's their mistake, soneones opinion being incorrect  doesn't alter the facts, any more than Jimbos false assertions. 

I don't know their personal wealth so you're right it could be either. 

My key point though is borrowing from the fans and then paying back with Premier League money isn't investing.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

I don't know their personal wealth so you're right it could be either. 

My key point though is borrowing from the fans and then paying back with Premier League money isn't investing.

I agree  on  this.  So no dispute  here, just get tired of lack of comprehension of what is true and what isn't....by some. 

As a sidenote,  the bond scheme could lead to bigger similar  schemes, a crowdfunding solution to the investment that so many crave. The potential  is there to raise a lot of money without  selling out the Club to either banks or SRCIs. I know which I'd  prefer. 

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14 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Dear dim Jim, when will you accept that  the bond offer was a good thing all round, Colney got revamped, the bondholders got their  money back plus interest and the Club was, at no point at financial risk due to this. Maybe you could explain to us all, coherently,  what exactly is your gripe about this scheme? Could you not purchase bonds? Did you have plans to turn Colney into a housing estate?  What is the problem? We're  all ears ( well, eyes).

There isn’t a problem but if anything it actually highlights that our owners are not able to fund or invest in the club. It’s a pretty modest scheme of improvements in comparison to what many other prem or champ clubs have done (in some cases funded in part or whole by their owners) but it’s clearly a good thing that money has been invested into improved facilities that will help us to not fall so far behind other clubs.

it is not, however, an example of owners investing in the club  or the community. It was borne out of necessity/desperation if anything.

club were also a bit tight repaying the bond immediately as they did as well!

 

 

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

There isn’t a problem but if anything it actually highlights that our owners are not able to fund or invest in the club. It’s a pretty modest scheme of improvements in comparison to what many other prem or champ clubs have done (in some cases funded in part or whole by their owners) but it’s clearly a good thing that money has been invested into improved facilities that will help us to not fall so far behind other clubs.

it is not, however, an example of owners investing in the club  or the community. It was borne out of necessity/desperation if anything.

club were also a bit tight repaying the bond immediately as they did as well!

 

 

If there no problem, why gripe?  There was nothing underhand, dishonest or shady about  it at all. 

Do you know the expression  " looking a gift horse in the mouth". Some things can  literally be taken at face value.  

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5 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I agree  on  this.  So no dispute  here, just get tired of lack of comprehension of what is true and what isn't....by some. 

As a sidenote,  the bond scheme could lead to bigger similar  schemes, a crowdfunding solution to the investment that so many crave. The potential  is there to raise a lot of money without  selling out the Club to either banks or SRCIs. I know which I'd  prefer. 

If you're going to start crowdsourcing funding then for me, you need to be talking about putting the club into fan ownership. 

Personally I'm not a 'stinking rich owner' advocate- I just believe if we're sticking with a funding model that involves owners not actually putting their own money in then we should be looking at getting the fans more involved. I'd entirely shut up about Tom Smith taking over if part of the deal was Delia & MWJ working to put 20-30% of their current shareholding into fan ownership.

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4 minutes ago, king canary said:

If you're going to start crowdsourcing funding then for me, you need to be talking about putting the club into fan ownership. 

Personally I'm not a 'stinking rich owner' advocate- I just believe if we're sticking with a funding model that involves owners not actually putting their own money in then we should be looking at getting the fans more involved. I'd entirely shut up about Tom Smith taking over if part of the deal was Delia & MWJ working to put 20-30% of their current shareholding into fan ownership.

I'd have no problems  with that kaceyo,  Bayern Munich  run a very  tight ship and I believe  it only costs €20 approx for a standard  ticket, now that's a template  I would buy into ( not literally,  I'm skinter  than Delia).

In  an ideal world,  Tom would take over, ensuring continuity   while a process  of  transfer of Club ownership  to the supporters  is instigated , with all the checks and balances in place to ensure a steady upward trajectory without risking putting our unique  club at risk of losing its identity.  We have a good thing going right now  , just need to find a way  to make it better  while still being ourselves   .

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Apparently there are lots of them hiding behind Delia's bins but she won't let them in the kitchen.

We could have fantastic bins if we had a rich owner. Biffa, they could buy us out and we could call ourselves the Binners

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14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Apparently there are lots of them hiding behind Delia's bins but she won't let them in the kitchen.

We could have fantastic bins if we had a rich owner. Biffa, they could buy us out and we could call ourselves the Binners

Now there's an offer we can't refuse.......

  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

But the club is debt free and the clubs you have quoted will be in millions of pounds worth of debt. They must be aiming high to purchase a top division french club!

The clubs I mentioned have very low income streams because they're in League One. With a bit of investment, they could potentially get the club back to the Prem and all the riches that entails. We were at our most attractive to buy when we were in League One, and are at our least attractive as an investment proposition right about now.

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16 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Apparently there are lots of them hiding behind Delia's bins but she won't let them in the kitchen.

We could have fantastic bins if we had a rich owner. Biffa, they could buy us out and we could call ourselves the Binners

Nah, that's a rubbish idea...

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1 minute ago, Mello Yello said:

Now there's an offer we can't refuse.......

Can we please keep a lid on these bin jokes ?

 

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1 minute ago, Woodman said:

Nah, that's a rubbish idea...

These same jokes keep getting recycled.

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2 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Can we please keep a lid on these bin jokes ?

 

You're waste-ing your time. I have plenty more at my disposal.

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51 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

So what fans would you have running the fan ownership ?

Anyone that posts on here regularly......... meetings would be great fun.

No, seriously that would be the hardest part i'd say, i suppose a cross section of all the various supporters groups...with all the politics that brings along with it. I suppose the best way would be to look at say, Bayern, and see how they did it, it may have started at formation for all i know, in which case we'd have to look elsewhere if such a thing has been achieved and how they did it. Maybe a Scampi eating competition to decide who is Chairman. 

What i actually think will happen is that our future after this season will see a slow but steady improvement in our finances, infrastructure, playing staff and League position....if we carry on as we have the last couple of years This of course will take time and too long for some, but as im only 57 i reckon i'll have time, barring the unexpected, to see it happen. I doubt there'll be any major changes in the structure of the Club(not incl personnel) unless this chosen path fails  , ie we plummet .

Then God only knows. We 'go again' i suppose.I'm in no hurry.

Edited by wcorkcanary

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I wonder if our expectations are set by how City were doing when we first started following the team? For the first ten years of my support Norwich were a lowly second-tier team, so anything better than that seems a bonus to me. Therefore I am happy with our current status and think that being a top-26 side in the country is a challenging objective.

Style of play matters to me a lot, so I am happy to see how the football has developed under Farke, even though I was fairly sceptical in that first season. Last year was fantastic, and this year is a recognition of just how difficult it is to survive at this level. Still, we play very well at times even if we can't keep it going for ninety minutes, and the team are still trying their best on the pitch despite it must be very disheartening for them to keep losing. I hope that they keep at it until the end of the season and I will support them all the way if they do, even if the results are not good.

Life still goes on if we are relegated and I think we are good enough to bounce back again - and that means another thrilling season in prospect next year. So while it would be better if we were not struggling, I'm still overall happy with things and the general direction of the club which I believe is upwards.

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1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Anyone that posts on here regularly......... meetings would be great fun.

No, seriously that would be the hardest part i'd say, i suppose a cross section of all the various supporters groups...with all the politics that brings along with it. I suppose the best way would be to look at say, Bayern, and see how they did it, it may have started at formation for all i know, in which case we'd have to look elsewhere if such a thing has been achieved and how they did it.

Of all these supporters groups the vast majority of them do not have a constitution, hold AGM's or have a democratically elected committee with officers. For that matter they do not have a membership.

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9 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

The clubs I mentioned have very low income streams because they're in League One. With a bit of investment, they could potentially get the club back to the Prem and all the riches that entails. We were at our most attractive to buy when we were in League One, and are at our least attractive as an investment proposition right about now.

If a buyer is buying the current majority shareholding then it all depends how much money they want for it doesn't it?

There are also quite a large number of issued but unallocated shares which i think were valued at £55 each but that was a couple of years ago so i don't know what the current price per share is.

 

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What is an "Established Premier League Club"?

As I see it; Man U, Man C, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs & Arsenal are established in that it would take a massive disaster for them to ever be relegated.

Then there are Leicester & Everton who might flirt with the top positions and are likely to be safe from relegation.

Then there are the rest that are currently in PL. All are at risk of relegation. Maybe not this year but would you put your money on any of them still being in PL in 5 years time?

After that, take a look in the championship. There are half a dozen teams down there that are likely to be found either at the top of the Champs or in the lower PL over the next few years, and a dozen more that could get there for a season or 2 given a good season or 2.

Only a couple of seasons ago, Stoke looked like they were established in PL. Look where they are now!

Even looking down at L1 would anyone be surprised to see the likes of Sunderland or Portsmouth in the PL in 5 years time? Possibly a few others too.

So no, I don't see us as ever being an "Established Premier League Team" as I don't think we will ever break into those few top "safe" places. More likely we will continue to go up and down through the years, just like we have for the last 30 years or so.

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2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

If a buyer is buying the current majority shareholding then it all depends how much money they want for it doesn't it?

There are also quite a large number of issued but unallocated shares which i think were valued at £55 each but that was a couple of years ago so i don't know what the current price per share is.

Well yes, of course it does. But logic dictates that a club like Sunderland, playing in the third tier with lots of debt and a half-empty stadium, would be more likely to be available for a nominal fee. If you were the owner, why would you want to sell a debt-free, sustainable, futureproofed club with a full stadium, plenty of funding and an excellent management team for peanuts?

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Just now, TIL 1010 said:

Of all these supporters groups the vast majority of them do not have a constitution, hold AGM's or have a democratically elected committee with officers. For that matter they do not have a membership.

No one said it was going to be easy. Maybe a Lottery( limited to names that have purchased home tickets or been members in last , say 10 yrs) then, that would give a random cross section of supporters. If you're on the Clubs data base as a legit fan then you're in the draw. Seems fair. If you do not wish to take a seat then your seat goes back in the hat.

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2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I wonder if our expectations are set by how City were doing when we first started following the team? For the first ten years of my support Norwich were a lowly second-tier team, so anything better than that seems a bonus to me. Therefore I am happy with our current status and think that being a top-26 side in the country is a challenging objective.

Style of play matters to me a lot, so I am happy to see how the football has developed under Farke, even though I was fairly sceptical in that first season. Last year was fantastic, and this year is a recognition of just how difficult it is to survive at this level. Still, we play very well at times even if we can't keep it going for ninety minutes, and the team are still trying their best on the pitch despite it must be very disheartening for them to keep losing. I hope that they keep at it until the end of the season and I will support them all the way if they do, even if the results are not good.

Life still goes on if we are relegated and I think we are good enough to bounce back again - and that means another thrilling season in prospect next year. So while it would be better if we were not struggling, I'm still overall happy with things and the general direction of the club which I believe is upwards.

I think there is something in that RtB although i don;t think is applies in all cases. Certainly though I think fans in my peer group are perhaps more demanding or more frustrated with the limitations of the current ownership than some who are much younger or much older. Possibly not a coincidence that my formative years (and that of most of whom I attend games with) watching Norwich City (by which i mean when I started to go to games regularly as a child and then on my own as a teenager) were mid 80's to mid 90's when we were obviously one of the best sides in the country and genuinely challanging at the top level.

 

That said I also went to virtually every game under Rioch, Hamilton, Roeder, Grant and in the early and latter stages of Worthy when we had some really poor sides at times and had a great time following us all over the country, I think though that there wasn;t the same level of frustration as we just didn't have the players/hope which is why I think I find spells like now, (when we have 6 or 7 really gifted players and a place at the top table for them to perform at) looking like being wasted so frustrating.

 

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21 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I wonder if our expectations are set by how City were doing when we first started following the team? For the first ten years of my support Norwich were a lowly second-tier team, so anything better than that seems a bonus to me. Therefore I am happy with our current status and think that being a top-26 side in the country is a challenging objective.

Style of play matters to me a lot, so I am happy to see how the football has developed under Farke, even though I was fairly sceptical in that first season. Last year was fantastic, and this year is a recognition of just how difficult it is to survive at this level. Still, we play very well at times even if we can't keep it going for ninety minutes, and the team are still trying their best on the pitch despite it must be very disheartening for them to keep losing. I hope that they keep at it until the end of the season and I will support them all the way if they do, even if the results are not good.

Life still goes on if we are relegated and I think we are good enough to bounce back again - and that means another thrilling season in prospect next year. So while it would be better if we were not struggling, I'm still overall happy with things and the general direction of the club which I believe is upwards.

You could be spot on. Same applies to me when I started supporting and agree with everything you've said.

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@feedthewolf (quote function is playing up)

Well one reason might be if as an owner you realised that you cannot sustain a premier league club and that your ownership is holding the club back and there was someone else in the wings who was prepared to put serious money into the club. 

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10 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

@feedthewolf (quote function is playing up)

Well one reason might be if as an owner you realised that you cannot sustain a premier league club and that your ownership is holding the club back and there was someone else in the wings who was prepared to put serious money into the club. 

I think a lot of people would pay 'peanuts' for our club promising to deliver the world afterwards. If that materialised or not is of course a completely different question.

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This assumption that there's richer and better owners in the wings is just figment of imagination. Nothing more.

I also can't see why borrowing money from fans and paying it back is not investment where as an owner putting money in and taking it back is investment. It was a brilliant scheme which I was happy and proud to be part of.

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2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Nutty and Lakey please.

Much better to have keyboard kates who never go...

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