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Keith Scott

Farke getting off lightly

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5 hours ago, Well b back said:

Just look at how players have improved from Maddison to Tettey and then please let me know he is a bad coach. He’s so bad in fact that tiny German club Dortmund seem to see him as the answer to their problems. 

I agree, a good coach, but a mediocre manager.  There is a massive difference, however, where does the responsibility lie to have recognised this?

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7 minutes ago, Ray said:

I agree, a good coach, but a mediocre manager.  There is a massive difference, however, where does the responsibility lie to have recognised this?

Any chance that you could give evidence to back up this very broadbrush statement Ray or are you just content to parade your opinion as fact? 

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Never content to parade my opinion as fact and have not done so here and indeed never have done.  However, to answer your question, imo a good coach because he has brought on some very good youngsters (good coach), however, we are 8 points adrift of safety having been ahead in 6 of our last 9 games I believe, yet have won none of them, hence my opinion of being a mediocre manager, insomuch a manger's job in these instances would be to manage the game (substitutions, tactics, etc.) to ensure a win.  A good manager would have at least won some of these games, in my opinion only of course.

Does that answer your request?

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12 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Any chance that you could give evidence to back up this very broadbrush statement Ray or are you just content to parade your opinion as fact? 

This is hilarious... One to bring up soon one feels 😂

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3 minutes ago, Ray said:

Never content to parade my opinion as fact and have not done so here and indeed never have done.  However, to answer your question, imo a good coach because he has brought on some very good youngsters (good coach), however, we are 8 points adrift of safety having been ahead in 6 of our last 9 games I believe, yet have won none of them, hence my opinion of being a mediocre manager, insomuch a manger's job in these instances would be to manage the game (substitutions, tactics, etc.) to ensure a win.  A good manager would have at least won some of these games, in my opinion only of course.

Does that answer your request?

A thin squad not capable dealing with the physicalities of the to league doesn't help.

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9 minutes ago, Ray said:

Never content to parade my opinion as fact and have not done so here and indeed never have done.  However, to answer your question, imo a good coach because he has brought on some very good youngsters (good coach), however, we are 8 points adrift of safety having been ahead in 6 of our last 9 games I believe, yet have won none of them, hence my opinion of being a mediocre manager, insomuch a manger's job in these instances would be to manage the game (substitutions, tactics, etc.) to ensure a win.  A good manager would have at least won some of these games, in my opinion only of course.

Does that answer your request?

And getting us promoted as Champions last season playing some of the most exciting and entertaining football that most of us have ever seen at Carrow Road - in spite of spending a small amount of money compared to a number of our competitors? Was that mediocre too? 

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I agree, that said my opinion still remains, he is a good coach but, shall I say, still learning as a manager.  My fervent wish is that he is capable of doing so.

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4 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

And getting us promoted as Champions last season playing some of the most exciting and entertaining football that most of us have ever seen at Carrow Road - in spite of spending a small amount of money compared to a number of our competitors? Was that mediocre too? 

No it wasn't but it was in the championship where the gulf in standard is all too evident to us. 

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Furthermore, yes exciting football, which I thoroughly enjoy, however, imo his game management appears to be on a learning curve, which is why I feel he is currently a mediocre manage, hopefully to become a good manger and let's hope a great manager here at NCFC.

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8 minutes ago, Ray said:

Furthermore, yes exciting football, which I thoroughly enjoy, however, imo his game management appears to be on a learning curve, which is why I feel he is currently a mediocre manage, hopefully to become a good manger and let's hope a great manager here at NCFC.

Well I agree with most of that Ray, but I would substitute 'promising' for 'mediocre'. 

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

We spent next to nothing & won the Championship.

 

Great. We're not in the Championship though are we?

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23 minutes ago, Ray said:

Never content to parade my opinion as fact and have not done so here and indeed never have done.  However, to answer your question, imo a good coach because he has brought on some very good youngsters (good coach), however, we are 8 points adrift of safety having been ahead in 6 of our last 9 games I believe, yet have won none of them, hence my opinion of being a mediocre manager, insomuch a manger's job in these instances would be to manage the game (substitutions, tactics, etc.) to ensure a win.  A good manager would have at least won some of these games, in my opinion only of course.

Does that answer your request?

Pretty much agree with this Ray although the description 'mediocre manager' is a tad harsh. Some of the football played last season and at times this campaign has been truly outstanding. In terms of pure 'football' Farkes team is the best I've seen since starting to watch the Yellows in the very late 1960's. However, best 'team' they most certainly aren't (IMO) as the frailties and predictable style have remained unaltered. 

The Sheffield Utd home game was a huge example of how Farke completely misread what was required at half time (or the players simply ignored him maybe!). As the players went off the field, I said to my son that 'a storm is coming early second half and Farke  has to deal with that from the start'. Anyone who knows Wilder knew what was going to happen but we were totally unprepared for it it seemed. For the first ten minutes or so we needed to keep the ball as far away from our goal as we could and if that meant 'going long and pushing up to win the second ball' then that's exactly what we had to do. We didn't and the result was a foregone conclusion.  That is why (to my mind) there are serious question marks about his overall man management abilities in match day situations (like that).    

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Hi yellowrider120,

By mediocre I mean; 'If you describe something as mediocre, you mean that it is of average quality but you think it should be better.' (Collins Dictionary).  Although I would agree in general re last season, the opposition was a different beast and therefore my judgement is based on his performance as a Prem Manager and as I said it is my fervent wish that he goes on to be a great manager here at NCFC, although I do have nagging doubts based on what I have seen.  I know all teams will have an 'off' game, but we do seem to have not turned up 3 or 4 times this year, that is circa 1 in 6 games, and I for one do not understand why,  I also refer back to the taking the lead and not winning situation, based on a little research I have discovered that the team which scores first win approx 70% of the time, well that would equate to us having another 8 points from the last 9 games??  Yes, I know he is still learning, etc. it's just, through my impatient eyes, I wish he would/could learn a tad quicker, because I want my cake and to eat it, right now.  Well, we can all live in hope I guess.

I seem to recall Leicester winning something like 7 of their last 9 fixtures the season before they won the league and they were rooted at the bottom prior to that, so there is a precedent for our future.

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On 12/01/2020 at 16:50, king canary said:

Farke is still a young coach and this is his first time at this level. He was always going to have some struggles and is open to critique as is anyone. There are certainly some concerns for me around his game management and squad management but what he clearly brings to the table far outweigh those concerns.

I would agree with this. I do think Farke has been disappointing this season if i'm honest. Overall its not his fault if we go down as he has not got the squad options he needs but do think the poor marking from set plays, the poor starts to the second half and the refusal to make subs until after we concede (even if you can see the tide has turned against us in the game or certain players have run out of steam and are struggling) have been relatively consistent traits during his reign and I have been disappointed that he has not adapted quicker this season. I felt the tactics at Man U were particularly naive (we were so wide open it was ridiculous). 

Who knows though how things might have been were we able to play three centre backs and wing backs in a few of these games to tighten up a bit and ultimately i would not want anyone else in charge next season if we do go down. 

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On 12/01/2020 at 19:53, Thirsty Lizard said:

And getting us promoted as Champions last season playing some of the most exciting and entertaining football that most of us have ever seen at Carrow Road - in spite of spending a small amount of money compared to a number of our competitors? Was that mediocre too? 

I think you could still argue that we did not control.manage a lot of games as well as we could have done last season. Look at the number of goals we conceded, how many games were ding dong affairs or needed us to score a late winner or equaliser. I don;t think we used subs early or well enough at times last season either.

So I so think there is something in the claim that Farke's game management could be improved. He is, however, clearly an outstanding coach who seems to improve nearly every player he works with and who also seems to be popular with his players.

I also remain unconvinced that we got the medical/sport science side of things quite right this season with all the injuries we suffered from at a stage of the season when players should not actually have become fatigued (unlike for example the recent Christmas period where there were 4 games in 10 days). I would love to know what we changed from last season and whether the club has had a look at it and may do things differently next season. 

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I think you could still argue that we did not control.manage a lot of games as well as we could have done last season. Look at the number of goals we conceded, how many games were ding dong affairs or needed us to score a late winner or equaliser. I don;t think we used subs early or well enough at times last season either.

So I so think there is something in the claim that Farke's game management could be improved. He is, however, clearly an outstanding coach who seems to improve nearly every player he works with and who also seems to be popular with his players.

I also remain unconvinced that we got the medical/sport science side of things quite right this season with all the injuries we suffered from at a stage of the season when players should not actually have become fatigued (unlike for example the recent Christmas period where there were 4 games in 10 days). I would love to know what we changed from last season and whether the club has had a look at it and may do things differently next season. 

I really have to take issue with that Jim. There were loads of examples last season of Farke bringing on substitutes who changed the game. Vrancic at home to Sheffield Wednesday, Rhodes at home to Millwall, Hernandez at home to Forest and that's in 5 seconds off the top of my head. 

In fact I would say that the introduction of Hernandez against Forest was one of the most spectacularly successful substitutions that I've ever seen. 

Edited by Thirsty Lizard
Added a bit more

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To be fair to Jim Thirsty, he did say "at times".  We will of course never know what would have happened if subs had or had not been brought on in any game.  I agree with you there were times when he did make telling substitutions, however I also agree with Jim, insomuch there were times I felt he could have been more pro-active.  It is possible of course that his success last year with his chosen methodology led to a belief the same methodology would give the same success this year?

It will be interesting to see if the 'incomings' feature this weekend, and if so, if there is any difference/improvement to our performance and/or tactics?

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I think Ray's assessment is very fair and accurate. Of course DF got us promoted in great style last season and comes over as a very approachable guy but I am sure he maintains a very stubborn streak. The Man U game highlighted all our usual shortcomings with soft goals conceded, asleep at the corner which led to a goal, and four defenders being slow to close down Greenwood for the last one. We seem totally unable to change tactics and it is particularly noticeable when we come out for the second half in most games we seem to just knock the ball around with no impetus and seem to play on the basis that something will happen. The early goal against Palace was followed by this style. This should have led to us forcing the pace, but we just continued to tick over.

Of course he is not alone in the managerial stakes. Few managers remain continually successfull and even the very capable Eddie Howe looks to be the next one to get the chop. It often seems to me that many players will make an effort to support a new manager but then gradually lose a bit of enthusiasm. It is really only the Klopp's and Guardiola's of this world who possess the knack to retain the momentum. At least we have not wasted 60 million in to the transfer market and will have another crack at the Championship title next season.

 

 

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On 12/01/2020 at 15:09, TeemuVanBasten said:

He's a good man manager, good at fostering team spirit and togetherness.

But is he really anything special tactically? Seems to just have one way of playing, no plan B, never rotates the squad unless forced, and I don't think he really anticipates the opposition getting on top when fans can 'feel it' so is reactive with his substitutions after we go behind rather than proactive.

According to Norwich fans at the moment we have 7 x £30m+ youngsters and a future world class manager. Yet we're rock bottom of the league, on course for our poorest ever season in the top flight.

It doesn't really add up, either Farke isn't top class, or several of our players are massively over rated by our fans. Its probably somewhere in between that, a bit of both. 

People have bought too much into the Webber hype train, instigated by the man himself, and they keep talking about a 'model' that they don't understand, that doesn't really exist, and they draw parallels with various European greats.

Recently it feels like Norwich fans are more deluded than Leeds fans. 

They're rated at that price because of their potential. All of our highly rated young players also play in defence or in positions where you need to create regularly with consistency. If I could pick a position to blood young players in it wouldn't be defence or as our main attacking outlet, it's far less than ideal but it is where we're at right now. 

If none of our young players improved anymore they wouldn't even be £5m players let alone 30m. Those ratings are all based on potential and resale value, as it is in the moment I'd say Farke has only 3 players who are PL class every game to work with in Krul, Tettey and Pukki. He's doing very well given the circumstances. 

No manager is faultless and expecting a long term coach of NCFC to have no flaws is laughable. He's a great manager, one of the best in our history, enjoy him while he's here.

Edited by Christoph Stiepermann

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22 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

They're rated at that price because of their potential. All of our highly rated young players also play in defence or in positions where you need to create regularly with consistency. If I could pick a position to blood young players in it wouldn't be defence or as our main attacking outlet, it's far less than ideal but it is where we're at right now. 

If none of our young players improved anymore they wouldn't even be £5m players let alone 30m. Those ratings are all based on potential and resale value, as it is in the moment I'd say Farke has only 3 players who are PL class every game to work with in Krul, Tettey and Pukki. He's doing very well given the circumstances. 

No manager is faultless and expecting a long term coach of NCFC to have no flaws is laughable. He's a great manager, one of the best in our history, enjoy him while he's here.

Sure, but the price for 'potential' in the case of Daniel James was £15m.

For Ryan Sessegnon it was £25m. 

For James Maddison it was £23m.

But for some reason everybody is saying all of our young players are worth £30m a piece, when that seems to actually be above the current range when applying the domestic player premium.

Market seems to give something more like a range of £10m to £25m for young English players with potential, I don't understand where this £30m figure has come from that people keep banding about, feels very optimistic to me, we saying our youngsters are so good that they will raise the threshold of the entire market? 

There are other young talents who don't play for Norwich for the big teams to fight over, they aren't exclusive to us, that Aaron Connolly looks the business, and Aaron Ramsdale at Bournemouth, Eze at QPR and McNeil at Burnley. 

I think some fans are going to end up a bit disappointed by some of the transfer fees, the upfront money in particular, I expect to see transfer fees which come packed with clauses and sell on percentages. They may go on and succeed like Maddison, but they could end up back in the Championship like the Murphy's.  

The other day somebody said £40m a piece for the three defenders, yet Harry Maguire had two years of regular England caps and three full years of Premier League football to realise £55m. 

Out of the young bunch the one who is closest to being 'ready' for the XI of a stronger team at this level is actually currently on our bench, Jamal Lewis by far the most consistent... is Ryan Bertrand any better, for example? Max Aarons perhaps the most valuable as he's a year or two behind the rest.

I'd expect a Cantwell fee to be something more like £15m + add ons, he's good but he's just not at the level of a James Maddison. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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15 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Sure, but the price for 'potential' in the case of Daniel James was £15m.

For Ryan Sessegnon it was £25m. 

For James Maddison it was £23m.

But for some reason everybody is saying all of our young players are worth £30m a piece, when that seems to actually be above the current range when applying the domestic player premium.

Market seems to give something more like a range of £10m to £25m for young English players with potential, I don't understand where this £30m figure has come from that people keep banding about, feels very optimistic to me, we saying our youngsters are so good that they will raise the threshold of the entire market? 

There are other young talents who don't play for Norwich for the big teams to fight over, they aren't exclusive to us, that Aaron Connolly looks the business, and Aaron Ramsdale at Bournemouth, Eze at QPR and McNeil at Burnley. 

I think some fans are going to end up a bit disappointed by some of the transfer fees, the upfront money in particular, I expect to see transfer fees which come packed with clauses and sell on percentages. They may go on and succeed like Maddison, but they could end up back in the Championship like the Murphy's.  

The other day somebody said £40m a piece for the three defenders, yet Harry Maguire had two years of regular England caps and three full years of Premier League football to realise £55m. 

Out of the young bunch the one who is closest to being 'ready' for the XI of a stronger team at this level is actually currently on our bench, Jamal Lewis by far the most consistent... is Ryan Bertrand any better, for example? Max Aarons perhaps the most valuable as he's a year or two behind the rest.

I'd expect a Cantwell fee to be something more like £15m + add ons, he's good but he's just not at the level of a James Maddison. 

Mcguire was sold for around £80M. 

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It's appalling how Farke is walking the plank when things go badly for us while the shady Stuart Webber doesn't get a mention.

Who was it that gave Farke so few /poor quality central defenders for the campaign ?

It should be Webbers balls on the block as far as I'm concern.

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Maddison and James didn’t have a Premier League appearance  between them when signed. Bearing in mind our five all have and that the market will have inflated again by the summer and that they are all on long contracts I suspect we will get more than £15-20m

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Farke has done a tremendous job. 

So has Wilder. In a number of areas Wilder has advantages over Farke.

1. His side is physically more robust.

2. He doesn’t play like any other manager.

3. He has been backed in the transfer market.

4. His team’s values include winning an arm wrestle with opponents and not just out passing them.

5. He’s had no serious fitness problems and a consistent defensive set up.

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2 hours ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Maddison and James didn’t have a Premier League appearance  between them when signed. Bearing in mind our five all have and that the market will have inflated again by the summer and that they are all on long contracts I suspect we will get more than £15-20m

It's a key difference. 

Whilst making mistakes scouts are able to see our younger players potential at the top of the English game because they can watch them play against the best players in the world. It's far less risky than a James or a Maddison who hadn't played a single match in the Premier League.

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53 minutes ago, Bonzo said:

Farke has done a tremendous job. 

So has Wilder. In a number of areas Wilder has advantages over Farke.

1. His side is physically more robust.

2. He doesn’t play like any other manager.

3. He has been backed in the transfer market.

4. His team’s values include winning an arm wrestle with opponents and not just out passing them.

5. He’s had no serious fitness problems and a consistent defensive set up.

Wilder's other big advantage is his personality. He demands the absolute best from his players in every game regardless of opposition and when he doesn't get it he hammers them. You can imagine Wilder's pre match and half time team talks rousing his players. He has the fear factor. Unfortunately Farke doesn't seem to have this, in many ways he comes across as too nice. Our second half capitulations may have  something to do with the way the manager addresses the players in important situations. 

Anyway, all the best. Keith. 

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On 12/01/2020 at 16:40, Since 1980 said:

Farke will be here longer than you think.

Nope, I would put my money on him leaving if he gets a shot at being manager of a Bundesliga club! I don't think it's fair on him to be criticised too much either , if you don't get any backing it makes the job of being a PL manager very hard. I agree that he has made mistakes (substitutions, game management,...) but he's not the main reason we are down in the cellar

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I think Farke is one of those people that will not be swayed by the lure of big clubs. If he had been, he would have stayed with Dortmund - or at least stayed in Germany to develop his coaching career there in the Bundesliga. Instead he took on a relatively small club with big financial issues, a club that had just been relegated and having to build from scratch. I wouldn't be surprised if he will be thinking the job isn't finished and that for his own satisfaction he will want to see how far he can go with us. We may or may not be relegated, but the job he started was not a two year project, it was a long term building process and I am hoping he will love us so much he won't want to leave. Imo he would only want to leave if the club changed it's approach.

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I think the only criticism I can level at Farke is his game management. We often leave it far too late to make the changes required to either chase or hold a game.

Amadou seems like a very useful holding player to either compliment or replace a (understandably) leggy Tettey when we are holding onto games, but rarely features from the bench.

However when chasing games, sometimes you have to look at the bench and wonder who on earth he brings on... It is not Farke's fault that the options on the bench are lacking.

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