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pete

A dearth of strikers

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3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

They have also been absolutely crystal clear that they see their job at the club as a long term one.

I thought Webber made it very clear that he was leaving in the summer of 2022? 

So that's a promotion next season, then presumably staying up the year after, then offski? 

The 'vision' or 'project' or 'model' fails to inspire because of that small piece of information. There's a limit to what can be achieved in the next 2.5 years, when a year of that is going to spent in the Championship again. 

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4 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I imagine that twisted piece of anti-logic makes sense in your head......... I'd take Webber who brought in Pukki on a free against the clown(s) at Newcastle who brought in Joelinton for £40 million any day of the week. 

I’d take staying up like Newcastle as opposed to relegation.

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11 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I’d take staying up like Newcastle as opposed to relegation.

I'd take having a 52,000 capacity ground like Newcastle and all the extra revenue that brings in compared to us..... (but I still wouldn't want Joelinton 😂). 

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Agreed that bad players can cost a lot of money.

Agree that good players don't always cost a lot of money.

But a team can attempt to sign good players for little money and fail in that strategy, and that's what we've done over the past year, because only Byram has managed to force his way into the side and then keep his place. 

Also, Buendia cost circa-£5m we've since been able to ascertain. This summer we didn't spend £5m on anybody; I don't think it is unreasonable for fans to have expected us to invest a small amount of money in players with the potential to go on to become important players for us, even if that's post-relegation. We spent about £4m/£5m on James Maddison when we last came up.

The problem with 'banking' the cash is that we signed James Maddison as a Premier League side, beating a lot of competition for his signature. I doubt he'd have chosen us if we were either still in the Championship. As a Championship side we are behind the likes of Brighton and Burnley in the transfer market, as simple as that. 

This past summer was the time to attract a few young talents, I still don't understand why we didn't invest in new assets. Perhaps that will become clearer as time goes on, perhaps the next accounts will give us all a bit of a shock as we've had an unexpected expense, or perhaps we're building a new City Stand. Maybe it will all become clear, but at the moment I don't understand why we haven't invested in the playing staff. 

I don't think it would be particularly difficult to find an upgrade on Marco Stiepermann for £5m, if the current regime would struggle to do that then perhaps they aren't as good as we thought they were? 

Would we get £2m for Stiepermann? That's the point. 

We did do that - we brought in Daniel Adshead, Aidan Fitzpatrick and Reece McAlear all for reported fees of around £300,000 - no doubt with plenty of add on clauses. 

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26 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'd take having a 52,000 capacity ground like Newcastle and all the extra revenue that brings in compared to us..... (but I still wouldn't want Joelinton 😂). 

Or that horrible man that owns them.

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Pukki has been brilliant, but by God have we been crying out for some support. Dennis Srbeny looked poor in the championship, let alone as the game changer in the Premier League. It has been almost embarrassing watching him come on at times. The fact we have sold him mid-season shows how highly he was regarded by the coaching staff. Drmic has been a sick note and hardly looked like changing a game when fit. It is an embarrassment that Farke has to put out statements saying "we will give our all to stay up", whilst being forced to give an acadamy graduate his first league start in a must win game. 

Why has Joelinton suddenly become the only comparison point to our recruitment? Obviously he is ****e and cost far too much money. I don't think I've met a single Norwich who wanted a 40m striker to support Pukki. 

However, in the same window - rival clubs has signed McBurnie, Mousset and Maupay. Each for less than half of what Joelinton cost and all young at 23 years old. Most importantly, all have scored vital goals from the bench and won their teams important points.

Fulham rightly took flak for their recruitment, but were also rightly praised for bringing in Mitrovic. A player who has held value and been their best asset in the following season.

Edited by HertsCanary93

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2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Why are Newcastle suddenly the epitome of poor recruitment? Last time I checked they were sitting comfortably in mid-table despite being tipped for relegation and the club being in a state of mutiny. They've obviously done something right...

The topic is the lack of investment in strikers and Joelinton is probably the prime example of an expensive flop, even if Newcastle are doing well.

There are loads of examples that people could name - Che Adams (15m, zero goals), Moise Kean (27.5m, zero goals), Success (12.5m, 2 goals in three seasons), Muto (9.5m, zero goals). There are loads more: Batshuayi, Tosun, Iheanacho etc.

Transfers are clearly hit and miss. The reality is that Byram could easily have been the one who was crocked for the season and Drmic the bargain buy (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2009729-arsenal-transfer-rumours-josip-drmic-would-be-step-in-right-direction).

I don't think any of the summer transfers are particularly bad players, it's just frustrating that they haven't featured much. 

If Villa go down with us then it would prove Webber right: we could've spent 100 million, got relegated and be screwed. Instead, we will be fine financially with a good set up, which puts us in a good position to "have another go" next season. It's part of the long term plan.

 

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Credit to Webber for the recruitment last season at champ level but its clear that this season (i.e. in the summer) he has messed up and he has not provided Farke with a squad that is fit for purpose, both in terms of numbers in some areas and also in terms of having a variety of different players that would potentially enable us to play a different and more solid style of play. Very disappointing. He either was naive in terms of what is required to succeed at this level or alternatively thought we could buck the trend.

If you are going to run a smallish squad and have players like Srbenny or Hanley in it then you need to make sure your first reserves/Plan B players are reliable and don;t have a dreadful injury record. I know we got Drmic cheap because of his injury record in recent seasons but it was idiotic to rely on him as our only real back up to Pukki and it was also stupid not to get an extra centre back when we had 2 injured, Klose has had a poor record with injury in recent times and (if rumour is to be believed) Farke was keen to play with 3 CB's at times this season.

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3 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

The topic is the lack of investment in strikers and Joelinton is probably the prime example of an expensive flop, even if Newcastle are doing well.

There are loads of examples that people could name - Che Adams (15m, zero goals), Moise Kean (27.5m, zero goals), Success (12.5m, 2 goals in three seasons), Muto (9.5m, zero goals). There are loads more: Batshuayi, Tosun, Iheanacho etc.

Transfers are clearly hit and miss. The reality is that Byram could easily have been the one who was crocked for the season and Drmic the bargain buy (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2009729-arsenal-transfer-rumours-josip-drmic-would-be-step-in-right-direction).

I don't think any of the summer transfers are particularly bad players, it's just frustrating that they haven't featured much. 

If Villa go down with us then it would prove Webber right: we could've spent 100 million, got relegated and be screwed. Instead, we will be fine financially with a good set up, which puts us in a good position to "have another go" next season. It's part of the long term plan.

 

People constantly banging on about Villa spending £100m never mention the fact that they really had to do so because they had a worse team than us and when you then took out the loan players they didn;t really have a team at all. The had to spend a lot more than us because the squad they had on their books was cr*p and would never have survived. 

We were starting from a much better place than them in terms of the squad we had at our disposal and did not need to spend the sort of money they have spent.

I am, however firmly of the view that had our summer transfer business consisted of signing Mings (we laughed at them but he's arguably been the nest defender in the prem outside of Liverpool) plus a decent midfielder and a younger up and coming back up striker from the lower leagues then we would probably have had enough to stay up.

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

People constantly banging on about Villa spending £100m never mention the fact that they really had to do so because they had a worse team than us and when you then took out the loan players they didn;t really have a team at all. The had to spend a lot more than us because the squad they had on their books was cr*p and would never have survived. 

We were starting from a much better place than them in terms of the squad we had at our disposal and did not need to spend the sort of money they have spent.

I am, however firmly of the view that had our summer transfer business consisted of signing Mings (we laughed at them but he's arguably been the nest defender in the prem outside of Liverpool) plus a decent midfielder and a younger up and coming back up striker from the lower leagues then we would probably have had enough to stay up.

 

You not watched many leicester games this season? I’d say they have a much better defender than mings on their books 

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21 hours ago, Clint said:

Most prem teams will have 3/4 forwards of varying degrees of ability but all deemed to be capable. I doubt any other team will go to Old Trafford this season being forced to give a debut to an 18 year old forward and no cover on the bench. 

Aston Villa started yesterday's Premier League home game against Man City with precisely zero forwards on the pitch. 

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

People constantly banging on about Villa spending £100m never mention the fact that they really had to do so because they had a worse team than us and when you then took out the loan players they didn;t really have a team at all. The had to spend a lot more than us because the squad they had on their books was cr*p and would never have survived. 

We were starting from a much better place than them in terms of the squad we had at our disposal and did not need to spend the sort of money they have spent.

I am, however firmly of the view that had our summer transfer business consisted of signing Mings (we laughed at them but he's arguably been the nest defender in the prem outside of Liverpool) plus a decent midfielder and a younger up and coming back up striker from the lower leagues then we would probably have had enough to stay up.

 

It's just not that easy though Jim. Southampton did precisely that when they shelled out £16 million on Che Adams. Remember him?  Sixteen appearances this season - no goals. 

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Che Adams has been kept out the team by arguably the most in-form striker in the league, Danny Ings. He came off the bench in their last match to assist the winning goal, winning their team more vital points. They have turned down offers for him, as they know that you need depth and options up front.

Also, Adams is 23 years old and a striker likely to score 20+ goals in the championship. He will hold his value and would likely be their number one striker if they got relegated.

I do not think he is a bad signing at all.

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4 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

Che Adams has been kept out the team by arguably the most in-form striker in the league, Danny Ings. He came off the bench in their last match to assist the winning goal, winning their team more vital points. They have turned down offers for him, as they know that you need depth and options up front.

Also, Adams is 23 years old and a striker likely to score 20+ goals in the championship. He will hold his value and would likely be their number one striker if they got relegated.

I do not think he is a bad signing at all.

Oh surely you didn't actually just write that did you? 

If Che Adams had signed for us for £15 million and a wages of around £40,000 a week for a five year contract and had then proceeded to score precisely zero goals in 16 Premier League appearances the internet would have melted under the strain of the Pink'un lynch mob demanding that Webber be burnt at the stake for signing such a dud. 

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1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Oh surely you didn't actually just write that did you? 

If Che Adams had signed for us for £15 million and a wages of around £40,000 a week for a five year contract and had then proceeded to score precisely zero goals in 16 Premier League appearances the internet would have melted under the strain of the Pink'un lynch mob demanding that Webber be burnt at the stake for signing such a dud. 

Yeah, I did write that.

If Norwich were 12th placed, and Teemu was keeping him out the team with 14 goals in 22 games - I think every Norwich fan in their right mind would be still be happy.

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58 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

Yeah, I did write that.

If Norwich were 12th placed, and Teemu was keeping him out the team with 14 goals in 22 games - I think every Norwich fan in their right mind would be still be happy.

Oh come on - you're wriggling. The discussion was about Che Adams and whether or not he was a good signing. You're trying to deflect from that by talking about the relative fortunes of Norwich and Southampton. 

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14 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Oh come on - you're wriggling. The discussion was about Che Adams and whether or not he was a good signing. You're trying to deflect from that by talking about the relative fortunes of Norwich and Southampton. 

He was one of the best strikers to visit Carrow Road last season, scored 22 goals and he is 23 years old. Being reduced to cameos by the most in form premier league striker does not instantly make you a waste of money, a terrible player or even a bad signing.

Would I rather have him coming off the bench instead of Dennis Srbeny? Yes. Would I rather he started over Idah against Man Utd? Also yes. Would I like him to compete with Pukki in the championship next season? Also yes.

He's not Steven Naismith where he is over the hill and looking for his last pay check. He was one of the best young players in the championship and still has a lot to prove. Unlike Dennis Srbeny, you don't see Southampton trying to flog him mid-season - they want to keep him as they know he can offer them something.

If he does get sold - they will likely get a loan fee and then make their money back on the permanent - because young English talent doesn't lose it's value in 22 games.

Edited by HertsCanary93
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7 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

He was one of the best strikers to visit Carrow Road last season, scored 22 goals and he is 23 years old. Being reduced to cameos by the most in form premier league striker does not instantly make you a waste of money, a terrible player or even a bad signing.

Would I rather have him coming off the bench instead of Dennis Srbeny? Yes. Would I rather he started over Idah against Man Utd? Also yes. Would I like him to compete with Pukki in the championship next season? Also yes.

He's not Steven Naismith where he is over the hill and looking for his last pay check. He was one of the best young players in the championship and still has a lot to prove. Unlike Dennis Srbeny, you don't see Southampton trying to flog him mid-season - they want to keep him as they know he can offer them something.

If he does get sold - they will likely get a loan fee and then make their money back on the permanent - because young English talent doesn't lose it's value in 22 games.

I understand all that - I was impressed by him at Carrow Road last season too. He's young and he may still come good as may Joelinton at Newcastle who I've mentioned earlier.  

My point is that none of what you've mentioned above would have stopped some people on this board from savaging him and Webber if he'd signed for us on the same deal that he signed for Saints. 

 

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1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I understand all that - I was impressed by him at Carrow Road last season too. He's young and he may still come good as may Joelinton at Newcastle who I've mentioned earlier.  

My point is that none of what you've mentioned above would have stopped some people on this board from savaging him and Webber if he'd signed for us on the same deal that he signed for Saints. 

 

You can be one of the best players at a club and still get savaged by fans on a message board. Just look at Todd Cantwell.

The only point I am trying to make, is that Rival clubs have made as many prudent signings this summer as others have bad signings. For every Joelinton there is a McBurnie, Mousset, Maupay or yes, even Adams. We would take any of the latter four on our bench in a heartbeart, we would also be happy for any of them to lead our line next season or at least make their money back.

Our striking options outside Pukki have been essentially non-existent.

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Thirsty, you appear to unwittingly be basically backing up my point.
Firstly, I said most teams in the league would have 3/4 capable forwards, not all.

By pointing out that Villa, a team also in the relegation zone and got battered yesterday, started yesterday’s match without a striker surely just emphasises my point? 

 

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