Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Dean Coneys boots

Paradox in defence

Recommended Posts

Here is something that has me scratching my head. 
 

Taken individually 3/4 of our defence are very highly respected and said to be worth millions - Godfrey, Aarons and Lewis. And yet collectively our defence has been poor last season as well as this. 
 

1. Are they over rated? 


2. Are they too young to play together at same time?

3. Are they struggling to defend due to tactics played?

4 Are they better attacking than defending?

5. Are they let down by midfield?

6. Do they just lack experience?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. No.

2. Maybe (they didn't have the experience last season as well as this).

3. Yes we are an attacking side with flair.

4. Yes, see above.

5. Not particularly but we could do with an upgrade imo.

6. Yes, see above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spurs also have good individual defenders but struggle to defend as a team. I think the issue is that the other 6 outfield players are just not big or strong enough to cope in the Premier League and as a result our defenders are put under more pressure than other teams 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Approx two thirds of our goals have been conceded during set piece situations or crosses into the box. 

There are probably a few reasons for this - we're not the tallest/physical team, zonal marking and in-play tactics like not doing enough to cut out the crosses into the box.

We have improved defensively this season and it has now become more about killing the game off with a second goal, instead of conceding too many.

On a slightly different note, our most sought after players are wingers, full backs and Pukki. Godfrey aside, the core/spine of our team (Hanley, Zimbo, Trybull, Tettey, McLean) are probably upper Championship players.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Godfrey - Underrated. Can't rate him higher for his age.

Hanley - Very poor other than positionally and in the air. Average Championship level. I'd rather have seen Raggett as a backup.

Zimmerman - Very good overall but some poor decisions.

Klose - Really top quality, so top quality he can seem nonchalant.

Amadou - He was amazing against Man City, ut probably not composed enough to play with 4 at back.

 

We've given away 14 points from winning positions. I feel we should be playing only one deep-lying midfielder as a proper devoted CDM, with 3 center backs and two wing-backs. Leaving 4 to attack, giving the full-backs a better chance to bomb on, with the knowledge they will have 4-5 behind them. Most of our goals conceded have been from back post headers and fast breaks leaving the two center-backs overloaded. For me had we played this formation or even deployed it in a winning position we'd be well away from the relegation zone. The current tactic sees the likes of Hernandez coming on as an "outlet" but within a few minutes, he's forced back to cover their right-winger. We need to play football through our exceptional wing-backs and Vrancic, Buendia and Pukki, as those 3-5 are enough to unlock any team. I find it pretty frustrating Farke hasn't done this yet.

My first team would be:

 

Krul

Aarons Godfrey Zimmerman Klose Lewis

Trybul

Vrancic McClean (Or Duda) Buendia

Pukki

 

I would also make it a priority signing Wanyama, Joe Worrall and Mitrovic in the Jan transfer window. I wouldn’t have Tettey or Hanley near the squad as they aren't high enough quality and have clear weaknesses (Prone to errors and poor footballing quality vs too slow in recovery). Mitrovic in our squad would make a world of difference as he could come on in the 65th minute to turn the game and make the other team worry, rather than bringing on a weak outlet like Onel.

 

Krul (Butland worth a signing)

Aarons Godfrey Worral Klose Lewis

Wanyama

Vrancic Duda (McClean away from home) Buendia

Pukki (or Mitrovic in tough positions)

 

For me, with these defensive tactics, we'd be thinking about getting top 10. "The philosophy" is a little bit blinkered and needs adjusting, a tad. Keen to hear peoples opinions... I know I don't post much and I'm a newbie 😛

Edited by BarcelonaCanary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spending a lot of money there Barcelona, can't fault your choices but Wanyama, in particular, will have far more attractive offers than any we could give him.

Hanley is superior to Raggett isnt he? If that wasnt the case, Raggett would have had his chances long before now. They're not exactly raving about him at Pompey. 'Adequate' and 'does the job' would be their considered opinion on him.

Klose, again, has been a huge loss this season. He and Godfrey everytime for me. Harsh on Zimmerman? Maybe. But then what a great option as first choice cover or from the bench. Would assume that Hanley and Zimmerman would be first choices back in the Champ next season with Byram and a new left back.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. No


2. They played in a team that won the championship title which suggests not, but have suffered, I think from not having a regular experienced defender to organise them.

3. To an extent, we are open and attack which leaves space behind

4 About equal, their assists/goals suggest they are good going forward,not necessarily attacking,

5. Yes,

6. Yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BarcelonaCanary said:

Godfrey - Underrated. Can't rate him higher for his age.

Hanley - Very poor other than positionally and in the air. Average Championship level. I'd rather have seen Raggett as a backup.

Zimmerman - Very good overall but some poor decisions.

Klose - Really top quality, so top quality he can seem nonchalant.

Amadou - He was amazing against Man City, ut probably not composed enough to play with 4 at back.

 

We've given away 14 points from winning positions. I feel we should be playing only one deep-lying midfielder as a proper devoted CDM, with 3 center backs and two wing-backs. Leaving 4 to attack, giving the full-backs a better chance to bomb on, with the knowledge they will have 4-5 behind them. Most of our goals conceded have been from back post headers and fast breaks leaving the two center-backs overloaded. For me had we played this formation or even deployed it in a winning position we'd be well away from the relegation zone. The current tactic sees the likes of Hernandez coming on as an "outlet" but within a few minutes, he's forced back to cover their right-winger. We need to play football through our exceptional wing-backs and Vrancic, Buendia and Pukki, as those 3-5 are enough to unlock any team. I find it pretty frustrating Farke hasn't done this yet.

My first team would be:

 

Krul

Aarons Godfrey Zimmerman Klose Lewis

Trybul

Vrancic McClean (Or Duda) Buendia

Pukki

 

I would also make it a priority signing Wanyama, Joe Worrall and Mitrovic in the Jan transfer window. I wouldn’t have Tettey or Hanley near the squad as they aren't high enough quality and have clear weaknesses (Prone to errors and poor footballing quality vs too slow in recovery). Mitrovic in our squad would make a world of difference as he could come on in the 65th minute to turn the game and make the other team worry, rather than bringing on a weak outlet like Onel.

 

Krul (Butland worth a signing)

Aarons Godfrey Worral Klose Lewis

Wanyama

Vrancic Duda (McClean away from home) Buendia

Pukki (or Mitrovic in tough positions)

 

For me, with these defensive tactics, we'd be thinking about getting top 10. "The philosophy" is a little bit blinkered and needs adjusting, a tad. Keen to hear peoples opinions... I know I don't post much and I'm a newbie 😛

I guess you either watch the games with your eyes closed or listen to the games on the radio. 

He has been bossed by almost every striker he has come up against this season, no where near good enough to move on to a top team yet and no surprise we are looking slightly better without him currently, performances have been much better as a team. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that all these other top clubs are showing interest makes it pretty obvious they're not just being overrated by us fans. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

I guess you either watch the games with your eyes closed or listen to the games on the radio. 

He has been bossed by almost every striker he has come up against this season, no where near good enough to move on to a top team yet and no surprise we are looking slightly better without him currently, performances have been much better as a team. 

Total and utter rubbish. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BarcelonaCanary said:

I'd rather have seen Raggett as a backup

Have you seen Raggett play ?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The fact that all these other top clubs are showing interest makes it pretty obvious they're not just being overrated by us fans. 

where are the facts? speculation / facts two different things 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Total and utter rubbish. 

Its not.
Chris wood took him to pieces, even Andre Gray ran rings around him.

He ball watches far to often.

Shocking in the away games I have been to.... Southampton, Palace, Brighton to name a few. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BarcelonaCanary said:

Godfrey - Underrated. Can't rate him higher for his age.

Hanley - Very poor other than positionally and in the air. Average Championship level. I'd rather have seen Raggett as a backup.

Zimmerman - Very good overall but some poor decisions.

Klose - Really top quality, so top quality he can seem nonchalant.

Amadou - He was amazing against Man City, ut probably not composed enough to play with 4 at back.

 

We've given away 14 points from winning positions. I feel we should be playing only one deep-lying midfielder as a proper devoted CDM, with 3 center backs and two wing-backs. Leaving 4 to attack, giving the full-backs a better chance to bomb on, with the knowledge they will have 4-5 behind them. Most of our goals conceded have been from back post headers and fast breaks leaving the two center-backs overloaded. For me had we played this formation or even deployed it in a winning position we'd be well away from the relegation zone. The current tactic sees the likes of Hernandez coming on as an "outlet" but within a few minutes, he's forced back to cover their right-winger. We need to play football through our exceptional wing-backs and Vrancic, Buendia and Pukki, as those 3-5 are enough to unlock any team. I find it pretty frustrating Farke hasn't done this yet.

My first team would be:

 

Krul

Aarons Godfrey Zimmerman Klose Lewis

Trybul

Vrancic McClean (Or Duda) Buendia

Pukki

 

I would also make it a priority signing Wanyama, Joe Worrall and Mitrovic in the Jan transfer window. I wouldn’t have Tettey or Hanley near the squad as they aren't high enough quality and have clear weaknesses (Prone to errors and poor footballing quality vs too slow in recovery). Mitrovic in our squad would make a world of difference as he could come on in the 65th minute to turn the game and make the other team worry, rather than bringing on a weak outlet like Onel.

 

Krul (Butland worth a signing)

Aarons Godfrey Worral Klose Lewis

Wanyama

Vrancic Duda (McClean away from home) Buendia

Pukki (or Mitrovic in tough positions)

 

For me, with these defensive tactics, we'd be thinking about getting top 10. "The philosophy" is a little bit blinkered and needs adjusting, a tad. Keen to hear peoples opinions... I know I don't post much and I'm a newbie 😛

Utter & complete tripe.

The team you're suggesting would get slaughtered.

Tettey is about 5,000,000% better as a DM than Tom. 

I can only imagine you've watched one game about 2 years ago when Tettey made a mistake. Otherwise I can't imagine in what way you 'watch' games in general. I suspect you've succumbed to the Useless Tettey mythology because he isn't ambitious, plays safety first & doesn't score many. Eden Hazard he isn't.

There's no-one else at the club who can do the job as well as Alex. Nobody. Amadou is possibly the only one with the power, but his positional awareness is nowhere near.

This really gets my goat. When BJ was at the club he was always getting the plaudits because of his 'swashbuckling style', usually consisting of charging into tackles & missing completely, or smashing the ball over the bar (in fairness he did score occasionally, & had a powerful header on him - he was actually better in a more attacking role). Time after time we'd get overrun down the left while Alex stopped everything down the right. But nobody noticed.

Grrrr

End of rant.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As many have alluded to, it's not just the defence who must take responsibilty for defending! As weird as that sounds... But we have Pukki tracking back and sometimes nicking the ball off player's toes, Buendia also gets back well and I think has made more successful tackles than anyone in the team! The full backs are expected to get forward, so others in midfield must come back to cover when this occurs.

Our issues have mainly been with giving the ball away in stupid places. No matter how good a defender you are, if you're left 3 vs 2, 2 vs 1 etc. against Prem attackers you'll get stuffed more often than not.

Also, our deep lying midfielder position is a little sketchy. When Tettey plays, as he has been, we look more solid. But both Trybull and Leitner, when playing that position, are too easily dribbled past. This leads to goal scoring opportunities more often than not too.

So, don't single out the defenders. The entire team need to be more awake at times. That includes when defending from set-pieces.

Edited by BobLoz3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

I guess you either watch the games with your eyes closed or listen to the games on the radio. 

He has been bossed by almost every striker he has come up against this season, no where near good enough to move on to a top team yet and no surprise we are looking slightly better without him currently, performances have been much better as a team. 

I kind of agree here in part without wanting to seem too negative towards BG. He is learning and adapting but has been found lacking to be considered a solid PL standard CB. I can only summise the huge values being banded about for him are based alot on age, home grown, potential etc. He is a great athlete though, quick, strong, great commitment. I think he would have beneffited from playing with Klose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

Its not.
Chris wood took him to pieces, even Andre Gray ran rings around him.

He ball watches far to often.

Shocking in the away games I have been to.... Southampton, Palace, Brighton to name a few. 

Meanwhile............ back in the real world an unbiased observer writes......

 

Ben Godfrey.PNG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Meanwhile............ back in the real world an unbiased observer writes......

 

Ben Godfrey.PNG

well done you've blown my argument out of the water with that...........................................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

well done you've blown my argument out of the water with that...........................................

No - just produced the balance which was sadly lacking in your original posts. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could do with you in Australia, Thirsty - you're one hell of a firefighter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of rubbish being posted on this thread.  Godfrey is learning as he goes and his defending is brilliant most of the time, with just the occasional mistake that can be put down to learning on the job.  I note that the op left out Zimmermann from his list of highly respected defenders. Not sure why, because without a doubt he is the linchpin of our defence. Godfrey is better with Zimmermann in the team and defensively we have improved since he came back in the team. For that matter, Hanley looks more comfortable with Zimmermann in the team - he is a huge character of the kind that inspires those around him - and any defender young or old looks better with him in the team. Imo the combination of Krul and Zimmermann is exactly what the young defenders need in terms of experience around them.  They have all been brilliant and as has been said many times on this forum, it is the team as a whole that defends and sometimes midfielders make mistakes or switch off and that leads to a goal. 

So the young defenders are not over rated, they are not too young to play together, they are not struggling with the tactics, they are modern defenders who are as good attacking as defending, yes, midfield are sometimes at fault - and although they are young, they are gaining experience all the time - and in case no-one's noticed, we have looked much more secure defensively in the last few weeks, just very small things...and VAR.....costing us. 

The only way is up.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

They could do with you in Australia, Thirsty - you're one hell of a firefighter!

🙂 Thanks Fuzzar. Those guys are heroes - I'm just some argumentative old git on a message board who's hackles rise when people who profess to be Norwich City fans stick the boot into our young players on a public forum. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst there's no doubt the fact that we're an attacking team and their attacking attributes are generally better than their defending ones (for defenders) isn't helping, I think the main issue is age/experience.

All three of the players mentioned in the opening post are excellent young players who should all go on to play at a very high level, but right now they are not the finished article and they are still learning.

All three of them look very good most most of the time, but due to a lack of experience they seem to make a couple of slight errors in each game, usually switching off for a split second which allows their man to get a couple of yards of space or just an error with decision making which at Premier League level gets punished. If you have one inexperienced player in a back four doing this then you might just be able to get away with it, but when you have three youngsters in your back four it's tough. I think any one of these three playing in a defence with more experienced players would be talked through the game a bit more and be less likely to be caught out of position or lose their man at a crucial moment.

In the Premier League, a defender doing 50 things well and two things wrong over the course of 90 minutes often gets punished due to the high quality of the opposition who can take advantage of even a slight lapse.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly WWIAFTM. Take Joe Gomez at Liverpool - a player who is similar to Godfrey in many respects. Gomez has won lots of plaudits for his performances this season, but think how much easier it is for Gomez to look good playing along side Van Dijk in an all conquering Liverpool team than it is for Godfrey to look good playing alongside Amadou one week, Tettey the next, Zimmermann the next in a struggling Norwich team. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

🙂 Thanks Fuzzar. Those guys are heroes - I'm just some argumentative old git on a message board who's hackles rise when people who profess to be Norwich City fans stick the boot into our young players on a public forum. 

I am Norwich fan, season ticket holder for 16 years and I am giving my honest opinion. Irrelvant if its a public forum or not, I am not sticking the boot in.


Typical bloody snowflake happy clapper Norwich fan. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

I am Norwich fan, season ticket holder for 16 years and I am giving my honest opinion. Irrelvant if its a public forum or not, I am not sticking the boot in.


Typical bloody snowflake happy clapper Norwich fan. 
 

😂

Least we all know not to take you seriously now.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Godfrey has all the raw talent and qualities of the very top centre backs which is why clubs are watching him.

He’s no where near the finished article, but he must have played around 50 at most games at championship and above at centre back, he’s clearly still learning. I personally don’t think he has let us down at all considering the pressure our defence has been under, in fact some of his last ditch blocks to prevent goals have been fantastic.

I personally think on raw potential Godfrey is one of the most valuable of the young talents we have, every big club is looking for ball playing CBs with his physical abilities, it’s just whether he ends up fulfilling that full potential.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, urdie_Canary said:

I guess you either watch the games with your eyes closed or listen to the games on the radio. 

He has been bossed by almost every striker he has come up against this season, no where near good enough to move on to a top team yet and no surprise we are looking slightly better without him currently, performances have been much better as a team. 

Our two centre backs get overrun overrun on the oppo breaks and are clutching at straws due to formation primarily, which is why we’ve given away 14 leading points. In terms of quality Godfrey is in a different league to Hanley... Hanley is a mediocre championship player. If we play two at the back this week with Hanley in that two he will get schooled by Man Utd as they play fast break along the floor. Can Hanley mark a donkey with the ball in the air... yes (Wesley and Wickham). I can’t count how many back post headers we have conceded from sub 6ft wing backs not bossing the back post, so lets give that to one of the three cbs. The point of my response was that our cbs need better cover as do our wing backs... A back 5 in defence and 3-5 in attack is the way forward, without a doubt.... The 14 points thrown away are primarily down to tactics and secondly down to individual flaws/mistakes (which are laid bare less by better tactics). Godfrey is one of the best U21 centre backs in the world and definitely England, but yes he does need support and to improve his decision making.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that many of the young defenders have lots of potential, but it is very clear that they are not there yet. Therefore, if some of the bigger clubs would sign them, I'd see them likely to not be in starting eleven but learning behind.

I think the biggest step for them in this level has been man marking against much stronger, faster and cunning opponents. If we would for example count the number of most often failed their man marking in critical situations (especially near own goal), it'd be most likely Godfrey on clear margin. Same has happened often for Lewis and Aarons. In situations when they are close to opponent, but who pushes them aside to get that extra room or takes small step away of them on right timing to get enough space to be found and score.

They are all very good with ball and can read the game brilliantly when going forward. They are also very good in situations where they are defending 1 vs 1 against they guy with ball. But man marking, that is what all them (Godfrey most) is lacking.

If you go through the collection of the goals that have been scored against us this season, that can be seen very clear.

That is something that can be learned for sure, and that is why I think the big ones are after them. They have so much talent and currently only one major issue on this level, which can be improved over time.

However, during this season, that has often been the deciding factor on giving out goals.

Even though I rate Godfrey lots more higher overall than Hanley, I think that Hanley is currently more prepared for PL games as he is much stronger in his marking and does not get bullied in front of goal.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

Utter & complete tripe.

The team you're suggesting would get slaughtered.

Tettey is about 5,000,000% better as a DM than Tom. 

I can only imagine you've watched one game about 2 years ago when Tettey made a mistake. Otherwise I can't imagine in what way you 'watch' games in general. I suspect you've succumbed to the Useless Tettey mythology because he isn't ambitious, plays safety first & doesn't score many. Eden Hazard he isn't.

There's no-one else at the club who can do the job as well as Alex. Nobody. Amadou is possibly the only one with the power, but his positional awareness is nowhere near.

This really gets my goat. When BJ was at the club he was always getting the plaudits because of his 'swashbuckling style', usually consisting of charging into tackles & missing completely, or smashing the ball over the bar (in fairness he did score occasionally, & had a powerful header on him - he was actually better in a more attacking role). Time after time we'd get overrun down the left while Alex stopped everything down the right. But nobody noticed.

Grrrr

End of rant.

 

Ay a ay, he’s our midfield maestro Ay a ay, he never gives the ball awayyyyy.... Composed, direct and dynamic Trybul 

Vs 

Tettey who is very poor on the ball and prone to mistakes. I would make a showreel of Tettey unforced errors which lead to goals if I had the time, probably with the Trybul song as the theme tune to the video. Yes Tettey does break up play fairly well and he’s definitely improved this season, specially in releasing the ball faster and passing it forward. In terms of footballing quality through I can’t wait to see him leave. 

Wanyama over Tom and Tettey all day, but will our owners ever sanction a proven top class players coming in? Will that be the failure? Farke has done amazingly with small budgets, finding gems but for me that’s a good approach for attacking flare, but for me there should be no speculation on core defensive players... Get proven rocks in and give the attacking flare the confidence and shield they need. 

I’d put money on us staying up if we had 5 at the back, Wanyama, another top cb and Mitrovic (Not the £35m it will cost, but money nonetheless). Why not sell Aarons and Cantwell, loan them back for 6 months and get this done? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×