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ged in the onion bag

Learning lessons

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So fed up with that result had to vent, this seasons a real trial…..

This bold strategy the club have adopted is well worth supporting long-term, we fans embraced it last season and why not!   In return, they’ve done us proud.   The plan is prudent, sensible and showing signs its working well.  Why shouldn’t we do it our way and go against the grain.   Comparing the value and quality of our squad now to August 2018, has any club seen such growth?     

Baring a few clueless, idiot fans, we are a club very much together, the club’s plan we embraced and they are always transparent with its support and the team and fans are united, that’s not common.   In the Championship, we toiled with the passing game which came good, we improved and won it in class and style.    Now in the Prem, the evidence suggests we’re still growing; competitive in many games, it re-inforces the plan is on track…. just frustrating how we can’t see games through and still aren’t street savvy.     There’s definite improvement though but spending is clearly not the option and not in the plan we all embraced…. neither is sacking the manager.

It’s a long term strategy; management, coaches and players all learning lessons and developing.     Crucially, Daniel has to learn quicker than the players but it doesn’t seem quick enough.  At times recently, it seems too much and there’s some emotion showing…. It’s only natural when so much is against us.    Even in this league, there is plenty DF is doing well, the quality of the football and the improvements / progress of many players, for example.    Fact is though, because he got us promoted, DF has to learn and develop whilst operating at the highest level without experience in the bank, so mistakes are inevitable.   

It’s a harsh place, the Palace players giving our youngsters verbals, they have to deal with the intimidation.   Mistakes punished and small details / minor errors cost us.    There is also no place for sentiment and it’s in these areas where we (DF in particular) has to be cold and bold.    

All of those lads from last season deserved their opportunity, that’s how it should be, but it can’t be unconditional.    They have to perform and offer potential.   DF has been brilliant and providing he learns lessons will be a very successful manager (hopefully with us), he deserves backing well into next season regardless, but why not change strategies, be more pro-active and ruthless.   

Taking today’s game in isolation….. after some 50 odd minutes Vrancic was struggling and ineffective and we had to act, get Trybull on (or Amadou or drop McLean back for Onel) to get some midfield control back, Palace had gained the upper hand, Tettey (who is hardly Kante or Ndidi) has played 4 games in 8 days, he needed help.    Vrancic struggled the whole game!     There seems a stubbornness to avoid changing and reacting to the situations that present themselves where other teams change tactics.    It’s clearly why we’ve dropped so many points.    We never went left at all first-half and for all of Byram’s good work we do look unbalanced.   He’s not natural there and in general we have less threat down that side.    Should Zimmermann be captain, he’s particularly indecisive since Hanley returned?

The continued selection of Steipermann in the squad has all the hallmarks of sentiment…. (lessons are not being learned there).   Simply, he has made no positive contribution this season.    Isn’t competitive, doesn’t win the ball, get on the ball, pass or shoot competently.   Unfortunately, he is being carried.   A glance at the build up to Erikson’s goal v Tottenham, the pass forward that forced the handball should never have happened, the anticipation and awareness is so lacking.    His cameo today was an embarrassment … a diabolical challenge, the pull-back was a booking and then he stops the free-kick twice; he could, probably should have seen red!     Idah, for pure potential alone, should be ahead of him.      

The idea seems that the club and the team develop and that in future we can hold our own at this level….. we’re definitely not far away and DF is very much one of those responsible for that.  To be so close and yet so far is down to the small margins, the fine details.   Nothing we can do about the debacle of VAR but team selection is crucial.   Many have stepped up, (Krul – fair play, Aarons, Lewis, Byram, Godfrey, Cantwell, McLean, Pukki and Buendia), Klose is capable, but some have had their chance and sadly aren’t up to progression, (McGovern, Steipermann, Srbeny, Leitner).    Recognising and responding to that require decisive action.  Leitner may have shot himself in the foot but he has struggled and hasn’t got to the pace and intensity of this level.  That said, he’s definitely a better sub alternative than Steipermann especially when already operating with Todd, Emi, Kenny, Onel and Mario as forward options in the match squad.   Famewo, given opportunity could also offer us some better overall insurance on the bench.

Despite all these games, Amadou has not featured, (he doesn’t look the answer) in which case possibly we have some options in the pipeline.    May as well send him and Roberts back and bring in some U23s for the experience unless we bring in others.

If we’re learning lessons, then selection of the best players is necessary for starters….. then the right changes…… for weeks now we have struggled second half, looked tired and yet substitutions aren’t being made until too late.   The lads are putting in the effort and it takes a toll – they need help and change earlier.    We’ve not reacted when opponents have got the upper hand until the inevitable happens.    Draws are no longer acceptable currency in this predicament, they haven’t been for a few weeks….. at Villa Park, we had 30 minutes to get a result, stayed 4 at the back and waited over 10 mins for 'like for like' changes against a truly awful Villa side…    

Managers have to make changes as circumstances demand, not on 75 mins every week.  Against Sheff Utd, Wolves, Tottenham and Crystal Palace, the game dynamic changed on 46 minutes and we never pro-actively changed it up once.     It’s like we are sleepwalking back to the Championship.    The team needs to be unpredictable, more adaptable and offer other complications.  Why aren’t we experimenting?  

At what point do we look to develop for next season…. Is there room for experimentation that could still get us results to avoid relegation?   Earlier subs, three at the back, two up front, give Pukki some help / Idah some experience!    Famewo some inclusion, Amadou a bit more time at DM to see what he can do.  Byram at CB or as a sweeper!   4-4-2 even.

Still so much to be proud of, but galling that we demonstrate such potential and quality, yet keep throwing points away so cheaply.

The players all owe the club so much too, hopefully that translates to our main protagonists being here for the next two seasons at least.     January is notoriously difficult to get players in, so is it prudent to buy now anyway, probably not, although a couple of loans would be useful.   If we go down, we have to hold our protagonists to their contracts regardless of the offers otherwise the strategy collapses.    If we stay up, DF will have sorted the finer details and we might just do something like Wolves have.  

FA Cup up next, how about some unpredictability for starters, pick a strong team and make that competition our priority. 

OTBC.

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2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

So fed up with that result had to vent, this seasons a real trial…..

This bold strategy the club have adopted is well worth supporting long-term, we fans embraced it last season and why not!   In return, they’ve done us proud.   The plan is prudent, sensible and showing signs its working well.  Why shouldn’t we do it our way and go against the grain.   Comparing the value and quality of our squad now to August 2018, has any club seen such growth?     

Baring a few clueless, idiot fans, we are a club very much together, the club’s plan we embraced and they are always transparent with its support and the team and fans are united, that’s not common.   In the Championship, we toiled with the passing game which came good, we improved and won it in class and style.    Now in the Prem, the evidence suggests we’re still growing; competitive in many games, it re-inforces the plan is on track…. just frustrating how we can’t see games through and still aren’t street savvy.     There’s definite improvement though but spending is clearly not the option and not in the plan we all embraced…. neither is sacking the manager.

It’s a long term strategy; management, coaches and players all learning lessons and developing.     Crucially, Daniel has to learn quicker than the players but it doesn’t seem quick enough.  At times recently, it seems too much and there’s some emotion showing…. It’s only natural when so much is against us.    Even in this league, there is plenty DF is doing well, the quality of the football and the improvements / progress of many players, for example.    Fact is though, because he got us promoted, DF has to learn and develop whilst operating at the highest level without experience in the bank, so mistakes are inevitable.   

It’s a harsh place, the Palace players giving our youngsters verbals, they have to deal with the intimidation.   Mistakes punished and small details / minor errors cost us.    There is also no place for sentiment and it’s in these areas where we (DF in particular) has to be cold and bold.    

All of those lads from last season deserved their opportunity, that’s how it should be, but it can’t be unconditional.    They have to perform and offer potential.   DF has been brilliant and providing he learns lessons will be a very successful manager (hopefully with us), he deserves backing well into next season regardless, but why not change strategies, be more pro-active and ruthless.   

Taking today’s game in isolation….. after some 50 odd minutes Vrancic was struggling and ineffective and we had to act, get Trybull on (or Amadou or drop McLean back for Onel) to get some midfield control back, Palace had gained the upper hand, Tettey (who is hardly Kante or Ndidi) has played 4 games in 8 days, he needed help.    Vrancic struggled the whole game!     There seems a stubbornness to avoid changing and reacting to the situations that present themselves where other teams change tactics.    It’s clearly why we’ve dropped so many points.    We never went left at all first-half and for all of Byram’s good work we do look unbalanced.   He’s not natural there and in general we have less threat down that side.    Should Zimmermann be captain, he’s particularly indecisive since Hanley returned?

The continued selection of Steipermann in the squad has all the hallmarks of sentiment…. (lessons are not being learned there).   Simply, he has made no positive contribution this season.    Isn’t competitive, doesn’t win the ball, get on the ball, pass or shoot competently.   Unfortunately, he is being carried.   A glance at the build up to Erikson’s goal v Tottenham, the pass forward that forced the handball should never have happened, the anticipation and awareness is so lacking.    His cameo today was an embarrassment … a diabolical challenge, the pull-back was a booking and then he stops the free-kick twice; he could, probably should have seen red!     Idah, for pure potential alone, should be ahead of him.      

The idea seems that the club and the team develop and that in future we can hold our own at this level….. we’re definitely not far away and DF is very much one of those responsible for that.  To be so close and yet so far is down to the small margins, the fine details.   Nothing we can do about the debacle of VAR but team selection is crucial.   Many have stepped up, (Krul – fair play, Aarons, Lewis, Byram, Godfrey, Cantwell, McLean, Pukki and Buendia), Klose is capable, but some have had their chance and sadly aren’t up to progression, (McGovern, Steipermann, Srbeny, Leitner).    Recognising and responding to that require decisive action.  Leitner may have shot himself in the foot but he has struggled and hasn’t got to the pace and intensity of this level.  That said, he’s definitely a better sub alternative than Steipermann especially when already operating with Todd, Emi, Kenny, Onel and Mario as forward options in the match squad.   Famewo, given opportunity could also offer us some better overall insurance on the bench.

Despite all these games, Amadou has not featured, (he doesn’t look the answer) in which case possibly we have some options in the pipeline.    May as well send him and Roberts back and bring in some U23s for the experience unless we bring in others.

If we’re learning lessons, then selection of the best players is necessary for starters….. then the right changes…… for weeks now we have struggled second half, looked tired and yet substitutions aren’t being made until too late.   The lads are putting in the effort and it takes a toll – they need help and change earlier.    We’ve not reacted when opponents have got the upper hand until the inevitable happens.    Draws are no longer acceptable currency in this predicament, they haven’t been for a few weeks….. at Villa Park, we had 30 minutes to get a result, stayed 4 at the back and waited over 10 mins for 'like for like' changes against a truly awful Villa side…    

Managers have to make changes as circumstances demand, not on 75 mins every week.  Against Sheff Utd, Wolves, Tottenham and Crystal Palace, the game dynamic changed on 46 minutes and we never pro-actively changed it up once.     It’s like we are sleepwalking back to the Championship.    The team needs to be unpredictable, more adaptable and offer other complications.  Why aren’t we experimenting?  

At what point do we look to develop for next season…. Is there room for experimentation that could still get us results to avoid relegation?   Earlier subs, three at the back, two up front, give Pukki some help / Idah some experience!    Famewo some inclusion, Amadou a bit more time at DM to see what he can do.  Byram at CB or as a sweeper!   4-4-2 even.

Still so much to be proud of, but galling that we demonstrate such potential and quality, yet keep throwing points away so cheaply.

The players all owe the club so much too, hopefully that translates to our main protagonists being here for the next two seasons at least.     January is notoriously difficult to get players in, so is it prudent to buy now anyway, probably not, although a couple of loans would be useful.   If we go down, we have to hold our protagonists to their contracts regardless of the offers otherwise the strategy collapses.    If we stay up, DF will have sorted the finer details and we might just do something like Wolves have.  

FA Cup up next, how about some unpredictability for starters, pick a strong team and make that competition our priority. 

OTBC.

Brilliant post! Your points about Farke are spot on. Pity that so few fans can't see what has unfolded before their eyes this season and blame everything on 'the injuries' and / or 'lack of investment'.   You're right about Stieperman, the booking was plain stupid and you clearly get the impression that Farke can't wait to get him back in the team.

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Farke is a managerial genius. That he has coached the level of performance out of this squad is nothing short of miraculous. The reason for our failure lies firmly in the boardroom where the strategy simply appears to be to watch cash accumulate. Presumably, this is to mitigate the cost of player wages back in the chumps. 

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12 minutes ago, Highland Canary said:

Farke is a managerial genius. That he has coached the level of performance out of this squad is nothing short of miraculous. The reason for our failure lies firmly in the boardroom where the strategy simply appears to be to watch cash accumulate. Presumably, this is to mitigate the cost of player wages back in the chumps. 

See what I mean!!!

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2 minutes ago, Highland Canary said:

Farke is a managerial genius. That he has coached the level of performance out of this squad is nothing short of miraculous. The reason for our failure lies firmly in the boardroom where the strategy simply appears to be to watch cash accumulate. Presumably, this is to mitigate the cost of player wages back in the chumps. 

He's doing a great job for us but he's not a genius, he's still inexperienced and learning.    It's not the board either.... there is no blame to be apportioned.    We embraced the plan and there are plenty of signs its working well but it's a long term one for longer term gain....   we can't do it in the short term even with money its just not viable and patience is required..... the problem at the moment is the finer details of selection, game changes / management, certain players doing as well as expected but being on the fringes of the quality and consistency required.... Zimm, Hanley, Tettey, Trybull and Vrancic specifically.   Those areas have to be the ones to improve over time through new signings and youth coming through.

So lets say we had spent £10m on Amadou and £6 on Roberts this summer, would people have argued about investment at the time... I suggest not.    

Now is also not the time to spend money, where would it get us.    If DF and the players can start to make better decisions then we can win games, we can stay up.   

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Some excellent points well made, @ged in the onion bag. I think there is a lot to learn from this season so far but much also to remain optimistic. We might not be having too much fun this season, but hopefully we'll look back on it as a step in the right direction in due course.

 

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4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

So fed up with that result had to vent, this seasons a real trial…..

This bold strategy the club have adopted is well worth supporting long-term, we fans embraced it last season and why not!   In return, they’ve done us proud.   The plan is prudent, sensible and showing signs its working well.  Why shouldn’t we do it our way and go against the grain.   Comparing the value and quality of our squad now to August 2018, has any club seen such growth?     

Baring a few clueless, idiot fans, we are a club very much together, the club’s plan we embraced and they are always transparent with its support and the team and fans are united, that’s not common.   In the Championship, we toiled with the passing game which came good, we improved and won it in class and style.    Now in the Prem, the evidence suggests we’re still growing; competitive in many games, it re-inforces the plan is on track…. just frustrating how we can’t see games through and still aren’t street savvy.     There’s definite improvement though but spending is clearly not the option and not in the plan we all embraced…. neither is sacking the manager.

It’s a long term strategy; management, coaches and players all learning lessons and developing.     Crucially, Daniel has to learn quicker than the players but it doesn’t seem quick enough.  At times recently, it seems too much and there’s some emotion showing…. It’s only natural when so much is against us.    Even in this league, there is plenty DF is doing well, the quality of the football and the improvements / progress of many players, for example.    Fact is though, because he got us promoted, DF has to learn and develop whilst operating at the highest level without experience in the bank, so mistakes are inevitable.   

It’s a harsh place, the Palace players giving our youngsters verbals, they have to deal with the intimidation.   Mistakes punished and small details / minor errors cost us.    There is also no place for sentiment and it’s in these areas where we (DF in particular) has to be cold and bold.    

All of those lads from last season deserved their opportunity, that’s how it should be, but it can’t be unconditional.    They have to perform and offer potential.   DF has been brilliant and providing he learns lessons will be a very successful manager (hopefully with us), he deserves backing well into next season regardless, but why not change strategies, be more pro-active and ruthless.   

Taking today’s game in isolation….. after some 50 odd minutes Vrancic was struggling and ineffective and we had to act, get Trybull on (or Amadou or drop McLean back for Onel) to get some midfield control back, Palace had gained the upper hand, Tettey (who is hardly Kante or Ndidi) has played 4 games in 8 days, he needed help.    Vrancic struggled the whole game!     There seems a stubbornness to avoid changing and reacting to the situations that present themselves where other teams change tactics.    It’s clearly why we’ve dropped so many points.    We never went left at all first-half and for all of Byram’s good work we do look unbalanced.   He’s not natural there and in general we have less threat down that side.    Should Zimmermann be captain, he’s particularly indecisive since Hanley returned?

The continued selection of Steipermann in the squad has all the hallmarks of sentiment…. (lessons are not being learned there).   Simply, he has made no positive contribution this season.    Isn’t competitive, doesn’t win the ball, get on the ball, pass or shoot competently.   Unfortunately, he is being carried.   A glance at the build up to Erikson’s goal v Tottenham, the pass forward that forced the handball should never have happened, the anticipation and awareness is so lacking.    His cameo today was an embarrassment … a diabolical challenge, the pull-back was a booking and then he stops the free-kick twice; he could, probably should have seen red!     Idah, for pure potential alone, should be ahead of him.      

The idea seems that the club and the team develop and that in future we can hold our own at this level….. we’re definitely not far away and DF is very much one of those responsible for that.  To be so close and yet so far is down to the small margins, the fine details.   Nothing we can do about the debacle of VAR but team selection is crucial.   Many have stepped up, (Krul – fair play, Aarons, Lewis, Byram, Godfrey, Cantwell, McLean, Pukki and Buendia), Klose is capable, but some have had their chance and sadly aren’t up to progression, (McGovern, Steipermann, Srbeny, Leitner).    Recognising and responding to that require decisive action.  Leitner may have shot himself in the foot but he has struggled and hasn’t got to the pace and intensity of this level.  That said, he’s definitely a better sub alternative than Steipermann especially when already operating with Todd, Emi, Kenny, Onel and Mario as forward options in the match squad.   Famewo, given opportunity could also offer us some better overall insurance on the bench.

Despite all these games, Amadou has not featured, (he doesn’t look the answer) in which case possibly we have some options in the pipeline.    May as well send him and Roberts back and bring in some U23s for the experience unless we bring in others.

If we’re learning lessons, then selection of the best players is necessary for starters….. then the right changes…… for weeks now we have struggled second half, looked tired and yet substitutions aren’t being made until too late.   The lads are putting in the effort and it takes a toll – they need help and change earlier.    We’ve not reacted when opponents have got the upper hand until the inevitable happens.    Draws are no longer acceptable currency in this predicament, they haven’t been for a few weeks….. at Villa Park, we had 30 minutes to get a result, stayed 4 at the back and waited over 10 mins for 'like for like' changes against a truly awful Villa side…    

Managers have to make changes as circumstances demand, not on 75 mins every week.  Against Sheff Utd, Wolves, Tottenham and Crystal Palace, the game dynamic changed on 46 minutes and we never pro-actively changed it up once.     It’s like we are sleepwalking back to the Championship.    The team needs to be unpredictable, more adaptable and offer other complications.  Why aren’t we experimenting?  

At what point do we look to develop for next season…. Is there room for experimentation that could still get us results to avoid relegation?   Earlier subs, three at the back, two up front, give Pukki some help / Idah some experience!    Famewo some inclusion, Amadou a bit more time at DM to see what he can do.  Byram at CB or as a sweeper!   4-4-2 even.

Still so much to be proud of, but galling that we demonstrate such potential and quality, yet keep throwing points away so cheaply.

The players all owe the club so much too, hopefully that translates to our main protagonists being here for the next two seasons at least.     January is notoriously difficult to get players in, so is it prudent to buy now anyway, probably not, although a couple of loans would be useful.   If we go down, we have to hold our protagonists to their contracts regardless of the offers otherwise the strategy collapses.    If we stay up, DF will have sorted the finer details and we might just do something like Wolves have.  

FA Cup up next, how about some unpredictability for starters, pick a strong team and make that competition our priority. 

OTBC.

Well said Ged. Actually, I think your post is one of the best I've read on this forum in many years, being balanced in criticism, criticism which is well directed and fair.

Stiepermann, for example, has indeed been an embarrassment, often you'll see him jogging around the pitch quite aimlessly, further, when in great positions, his shot is a poor one. Frustrating player for me and  I believe Bolton away last year was his zenith.

Likewise, Farke has not been pro-active enough in changing or trying to influence momentum. Yet, as you say, he has to learn. 

I agree with your points on strategy. My biggest fear is less that we lose 2 or 3 (or even 4) players but that we lose him. It would change the whole approach in my opinion even though Webber would have us believe he has another potential manager lined up. Farke, I believe is something quite special and cannot be chiefly responsible for the overall hand he has been given. I fear Dortmund or another Bundesliga team will take him.

I'm looking forward to seeing Famewo, Idah, Gilmour and perhaps 2 others we know less about next year (surely relegation is certain now).

You should post (vent) more often as your thoughts are refreshing.

 

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Good post Ged. It's a tad harsh on Stiepermann, however we do need to invest in a no 10 which gives us another goal threat.

This season just hasn't gone our way, unfortunately. The majority of fans are on board with 'the plan' and realise that we don't want to make the same mistakes as last time *cough* Naismith.

We seemed to have been cursed with injuries since the summer and every team would struggle with one recognised centre back.

We would still be in and amongst the pack if VAR didn't exist.

And, despite some great performances, our likable squad of players just can't seem to get the results they probably deserve. 

Looking forward, Webber has committed to another three years, which is crucial. If (probably when) we get relegated, I won't panic because I have faith that he will do exactly what he has done previously, except from a much better financial position.

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10 minutes ago, Yellow and Green said:

Good post Ged. It's a tad harsh on Stiepermann, however we do need to invest in a no 10 which gives us another goal threat.

This season just hasn't gone our way, unfortunately. The majority of fans are on board with 'the plan' and realise that we don't want to make the same mistakes as last time *cough* Naismith.

We seemed to have been cursed with injuries since the summer and every team would struggle with one recognised centre back.

We would still be in and amongst the pack if VAR didn't exist.

And, despite some great performances, our likable squad of players just can't seem to get the results they probably deserve. 

Looking forward, Webber has committed to another three years, which is crucial. If (probably when) we get relegated, I won't panic because I have faith that he will do exactly what he has done previously, except from a much better financial position.

I don't think that's harsh on Steipermann, he has been ineffective, apart from above, he has no first touch and what Farke managed to get out of him last year was remarkable.    This league is harsh, unforgiving and to compete our club has to be ruthless too.   If it's harsh what, when, where has he contributed effectively this season?   His ability doesn't fit with the plan.   Sadly, I believe that of Vrancic too... he did really well last year but he isn't Premiership level, he isn't strong enough, nor has the pace and anticipation or consistency to step up..... time will tell of course but at least he has the potential to affect a game from the bench.

Agree with your other comments though.

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2 hours ago, yellowrider120 said:

See what I mean!!!

Don't use Highland Canary as evidence of anything other than how to be a miserable git. I'm not trying to be funny but as a relatively recent member of this message board, you won't be familiar with his history as the club's most negative supporter - and there's plenty of competition for that trophy.

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14 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I don't think that's harsh on Steipermann, he has been ineffective, apart from above, he has no first touch and what Farke managed to get out of him last year was remarkable.    This league is harsh, unforgiving and to compete our club has to be ruthless too.   If it's harsh what, when, where has he contributed effectively this season?   His ability doesn't fit with the plan.   Sadly, I believe that of Vrancic too... he did really well last year but he isn't Premiership level, he isn't strong enough, nor has the pace and anticipation or consistency to step up..... time will tell of course but at least he has the potential to affect a game from the bench.

Agree with your other comments though.

I agree with you in the sense that he's not good enough in the PL. My point was probably based on other people's comments ("embarrasing") more so than yours. He has proved ineffective in front of goal, yes but he is able to link up play, provides a physical presence to compliment Pukki, he is good tactically when pressing and blocks the passing option to DLM. His height is also useful in when defending corners. 

Like I said though, I think we need an upgrade in his position to give us a more attacking threat.

 

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I totally agree about Marco. He has no pace for the position he is meant to be playing at the very highest level. He isn't taking on Championship holding midfield players or defenders. And I was shocked and angry that he came on for Pukki yesterday.

DF has worked wonders, is now very popular after that very peculiar first season and will still be with us next season unless he chooses to leave himself. But he has his faults like any coach and personally, I would list zonal marking, substitutions and bench selection as areas where I believe has hasn't got it right yet.

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