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Jim Smith

Premier league “getting it wrong” on VAR

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https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

as posted in another thread but as per request in there posted a a separate topic.

rather begs the question as to how Riley and co have been allowed to hi-jack this and make such a mess of it.

when thinking about it they don’t do the offside checks in the works cup/internationals/champions league do they?

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Thanks Jim

This makes the EPL the laughing stock of the world. Just like Farke and Coady they are accusing the EPL of manipulating angles until they get the angle they want, that is some accusation. I assume now the EPL will have to change their interpretation. Garth Crooks has backed them up by saying

Another referee might see the same incident totally differently and he would be entitled to that also. We were told that VAR was there to 'assist' the referee, not overturn his decision. What has taken place, by those pressing the buttons, is bordering on a coup d'etat and Fifa should stop it.

 

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Great to see that Wilder clip where he talks about Pukki's excellent goal and the ridiculous VAR decision. I've warmed to Wilder these last 6 months.

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This is an extract from Circular number 17, issued by Ifab on 21 August 2019, to all national football associations.

I have underlined and enlarged the parts relevant to offside. 

 

Video Assistant Referee (VAR) protocol

The use of VARs is only for ‘clear and obvious errors’ and for ‘serious missed incidents’ (where the

match officials have not seen what has happened) in relation to a goal/no goal, penalty/no penalty

or direct red card incident, or for mistaken identity relating to a yellow or red card.

The principle that the original on-field decision remains unless it is a ‘clear and obvious error’

applies to all reviewable decisions and a decision is not changed unless it is ‘clearly wrong’.

For factual decisions (e.g. location of an offence, position of players for offside, offence by the

goalkeeper at a penalty kick or kick from the penalty mark, ball in/out of play etc.) the VAR must

inform the referee if there is clear replay evidence. If the replay evidence is not clear (because of

camera position/angle, difficulty determining the exact moment the ball is played etc.) the VAR

does not intervene.

The protocol does not allow referees to ‘review’ an incident where the original on-field decision is

not a ‘clear and obvious’ error; ‘reviews’ are not permitted for a ‘second chance’ to look at an

incident or to confirm or ‘sell’ a decision which was not clearly wrong.

 

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And yet our refs instructed linesmen not to flag as VAR would look at all the offsides. They have massively overstepped their remit. 

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That’s interesting Mr Angry as unless I have misread the article seems to say the epl have been reminded today ? And insinuates as said by Farke and Coady that different angles are being used until they get to the decision they want. I translate that as we feel they are manipulating the outcome.

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They have created a huge problem for themselves. A very real legal issue.

 

i don’t like sports stuff going to court, it’s not nice, but there are millions of pounds at stake here and if it can be proved they have mismanaged the refereeing situation surely there is a legal case for financial compensation.

 

btw people should take a closer look at the PGMOL. What a shady AF organisation that is! 
 

grab your popcorn boys, this is going to get messy!

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Anyone watch any other leagues that are using Var? Are these leagues using it for offside decisions like these? 

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34 minutes ago, Well b back said:

That’s interesting Mr Angry as unless I have misread the article seems to say the epl have been reminded today ? And insinuates as said by Farke and Coady that different angles are being used until they get to the decision they want. I translate that as we feel they are manipulating the outcome.

I have e-mailed them to ask why they are overturning decisions when there is not a clear and obvious error. If anyone else wants to e-mail them-

info@premierleague.com

 

Edited by Mr Angry
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55 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

And yet our refs instructed linesmen not to flag as VAR would look at all the offsides. They have massively overstepped their remit. 

Yeah, and they don't even do that consistently! They've messed that up enough times.

The problem is, as with other controversies with VAR so far, they'll likely make a conscious effort to do different this week, thinking they're making things right. But how is it fair on every team who should have had a goal but didn't this weekend?!

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1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I have e-mailed them to ask why they are overturning decisions when there is not a clear and obvious error. If anyone else wants to e-mail them-

info@premierleague.com

 

As mentioned on another thread, I have also asked them to confirm whether the official reason for disallowing the goal was initially for TP coming back from an offside position, as mentioned on the NBC broadcast (not sure if it was mentioned on other broadcasts) and then changed to being offside from Mario's pass, and I have asked them whether they have incontrovertible evidence that TP was offside-i.e. an image showing TP, Alderweireld, MV and the ball, at exactly the moment when the ball left Mario's foot.

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12 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

As mentioned on another thread, I have also asked them to confirm whether the official reason for disallowing the goal was initially for TP coming back from an offside position, as mentioned on the NBC broadcast (not sure if it was mentioned on other broadcasts) and then changed to being offside from Mario's pass, and I have asked them whether they have incontrovertible evidence that TP was offside-i.e. an image showing TP, Alderweireld, MV and the ball, at exactly the moment when the ball left Mario's foot.

Good effort. 

The mention of VARs 'looking for the right angle' until they can publish the decision they want, is on the face of it a serious suggestion to make.

However, you only need to watch sports for a certain period to realise that it is entirely probable and some sport are littered with 'official or player mistakes.'  

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Just seen the Telegraph sports supplement from yesterday. We made front page, 2 and 3, quotes  include " The worst var decision yet". "Finnish strikers brilliant goal ruled out by tightest of margins". "Bottom side denied crucial victory as one of the most staggering VAR decisions yet rules out Pukki wonder goal".

Just about sums it up. 

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43 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

As mentioned on another thread, I have also asked them to confirm whether the official reason for disallowing the goal was initially for TP coming back from an offside position, as mentioned on the NBC broadcast (not sure if it was mentioned on other broadcasts) and then changed to being offside from Mario's pass, and I have asked them whether they have incontrovertible evidence that TP was offside-i.e. an image showing TP, Alderweireld, MV and the ball, at exactly the moment when the ball left Mario's foot.

Sky also gave the official reason as him coming back from an offside position and it was a good 10 minutes before that was changed to being offside for the pass

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9 minutes ago, Chumino said:

Just seen the Telegraph sports supplement from yesterday. We made front page, 2 and 3, quotes  include " The worst var decision yet". "Finnish strikers brilliant goal ruled out by tightest of margins". "Bottom side denied crucial victory as one of the most staggering VAR decisions yet rules out Pukki wonder goal".

Just about sums it up. 

This. That goal is going to remembered for a long time for it's brilliance - and for the controversy around it. Ranks even above Jerome's overhead goal. Surely two of the most unjust decisions ever made by officials in the history of football.

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1 minute ago, JF said:

Sky also gave the official reason as him coming back from an offside position and it was a good 10 minutes before that was changed to being offside for the pass

It’s just a complete nonsense, that belated excuse.

Pukki could have been walking back from Finland, the fact is he was completely inline with the Spurs defence at the moment Vrancic hit the ball. A toe, knee, hand etc does not remotely hand an advantage to Pukki, Mousset etc. 
 

Those 2 potential dropped points could have serious ramifications for us at the end of the season, it could cost Sheff Utd a place in Europe, this bullshoite needs to be contested appropriately.

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55 minutes ago, Chumino said:

Just seen the Telegraph sports supplement from yesterday. We made front page, 2 and 3, quotes  include " The worst var decision yet". "Finnish strikers brilliant goal ruled out by tightest of margins". "Bottom side denied crucial victory as one of the most staggering VAR decisions yet rules out Pukki wonder goal".

Just about sums it up. 

It would interesting if the club announced it was investigating the possibility of legal recourse on this decision. However, I suspect somewhere we have signed a waiver for these such situations.

Start the VAR fighting fund raising now NCFC

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I emailed the epl yesterday.

i advised them if they don’t come out and explain their decisions the fans will revolt.

Didnt even get a reply or acknowledgement, so I think they have left it to late as the various fan groups are now moving.

If you think this board is full of complaining about VAR then go to the Wolves message board, that’s bordering on serious revolt.

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1 hour ago, Alex Moss said:

It’s just a complete nonsense, that belated excuse.

Pukki could have been walking back from Finland, the fact is he was completely inline with the Spurs defence at the moment Vrancic hit the ball. A toe, knee, hand etc does not remotely hand an advantage to Pukki, Mousset etc. 
 

Those 2 potential dropped points could have serious ramifications for us at the end of the season, it could cost Sheff Utd a place in Europe, this bullshoite needs to be contested appropriately.

He wasn’t, the images used are deliberately a frame later to show him offside. When the ball is made contact with he is a yard onside. I believe this is why FIFA via the IFAB are asking the EPL why they are manipulating images until they get the result they want.

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2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

He wasn’t, the images used are deliberately a frame later to show him offside. When the ball is made contact with he is a yard onside. I believe this is why FIFA via the IFAB are asking the EPL why they are manipulating images until they get the result they want.

Interesting, are FIFA actually doing this? 

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There's a lot of people getting involved in this so hopefully the man at the top will reconsider the rules for next season

Archant have written to the Premier League to ask questions & are giving it lots of publicity

AlongComeNorwich have got Fck VAR t shirts made

Trust have written to the FSA  to ask questions 

Gary Lineker, Simon Thomas/Jake Humphries/Talksport  have all got involved on twitter

Chris Wilder pulled no punches in his interview yesterday on his thoughts on VAR and mentioned Pukkis goal which he felt was a great goal ( its on twitter, no idea how to put it on here )

 

 

Edited by Diane
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Alex see the original article on the link that started the thread, it explains itself. The recommendation is that VAR ( even for a potential offside ) can only be used if there is a clear and obvious error. They go on to say if you have to draw lines it is not clear and obvious and therefore the on field ref is no longer in charge of the game. It goes on to say in every other league VAR is involved in an average of 1 in 3 GAMES. In the EPL it seems to be 3 - 4 times every game. They finally state you cannot manipulate the technology until you get to the answer you want ( That coincidently is what Farke and Coady said ). Is that coded for stop cheating ? I wouldn’t like to say.

They also mention they do not know where the EPL got their guidelines from.

I think that’s a good summing up, but as always please let me know if I have missed something or indeed exaggerated. I believe the IFAB come under FIFAS wing

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They messed up wit their initial appraisal, made a statement then realised they had got it wrong, then tried to cover it up with a fresh statement about it.  B*lls up from start to finish - but what no-one has mentioned is the pressure these guys are under to make a decision as quickly as possible - that pressure alone is why some mistakes are being made. That isn't an excuse, but it is a reason - and more reason to rethink VAR entirely, removing it from subjective decisions. At the moment, it's so far from working that it needs to be binned until they come up with a plan tyhat is going to work.

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1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

They messed up wit their initial appraisal, made a statement then realised they had got it wrong, then tried to cover it up with a fresh statement about it.  B*lls up from start to finish - but what no-one has mentioned is the pressure these guys are under to make a decision as quickly as possible - that pressure alone is why some mistakes are being made. That isn't an excuse, but it is a reason - and more reason to rethink VAR entirely, removing it from subjective decisions. At the moment, it's so far from working that it needs to be binned until they come up with a plan tyhat is going to work.

Why not just follow the IFAB rules instead of making your own rules ? This looks more like corruption by the minute.

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1 minute ago, Well b back said:

Why not just follow the IFAB rules instead of making your own rules ? This looks more like corruption by the minute.

I agre, it does start to look tainted when you look at it. However, I now feel that Pukki's disallowed goal was just a giant b*lls up - the var people having it in their head that he never got fully back from the offside position he had been in, but after releasing the statement about that, realising they had got it wrong and that he clearly had got back from the offside position, hence the second statement, which was clearly trying to cover up their c*ck up.

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http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/2019/12/30/var-or-not-var-how-about-we-go-radical-and-let-refs-and-their-assistants-officiate/

VAR could be the point of no return for me. However there's stuff in Mick's article that I didn't know. Interesting that the PL chose to move away from "clear and obvious".

 

Edited by nutty nigel

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