Daily reminder that Pukki was Onside

[JF 694]

3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I don’t think there is any dispute that such goals should not be disallowed, it’s not what the offside rule was introduced for. I also agree that this is mainly a point relating to the rules that has been brought to prominence by/highlighted by VAR. the solution lies primarily in changes to the rules.

however in this instance I am also questioning the technology. There was/is not the right camera angle. I remain unconvinced they used the right frame or were able to get an accurate enough frame. It is not accurate enough for them to be making claims about players being mm offside and disallowing goals so until they can be more accurate (perhaps in combination with the rule changes) they should just not be using it for this. They are presenting decisions scientifically and claiming they are precise but they are not and they are subject to no proper scrutiny either. 

Dermot Gallagher was very clear on Sky that the lines that are used in the Var headquarters are far clearer than what we see. Also they have the 3D technology where the angle can be moved to see from all angles. These decisions have happened all season, we’re now discussing it because we’ve now been on the end of one. I’m sure the laws will be changed to counter these fine margin calls

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Just now, JF said:

Dermot Gallagher was very clear on Sky that the lines that are used in the Var headquarters are far clearer than what we see. Also they have the 3D technology where the angle can be moved to see from all angles. These decisions have happened all season, we’re now discussing it because we’ve now been on the end of one. I’m sure the laws will be changed to counter these fine margin calls

Dermot Gallagher is a filthy shill

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, JF said:

Dermot Gallagher was very clear on Sky that the lines that are used in the Var headquarters are far clearer than what we see. Also they have the 3D technology where the angle can be moved to see from all angles. These decisions have happened all season, we’re now discussing it because we’ve now been on the end of one. I’m sure the laws will be changed to counter these fine margin calls

Well that’s convenient isn’t it. Why not release them then? In this instance they actually changed the reason for disallowing the goal 10 minutes afterwards. 

[JF 694]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Well that’s convenient isn’t it. Why not release them then? In this instance they actually changed the reason for disallowing the goal 10 minutes afterwards. 

Yes that hasn’t been cleared up and it should be. Did Sky misunderstand or relay the wrong information? It was 100% said it was ruled out by him being offside in the build up only to change 10 minutes later. With hindsight it was probably Skys commentator relaying the wrong info but that should have been verified 

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Bottom line is these referees aren’t willing to take responsibility for the game they are officiating. Won’t do interviews, won’t explain themselves, won’t release mic recordings, won’t release VAR reasonings. Just gutless, spineless mini hitlers ready and willing to ruin football games then run out to the taxi outside the ground with the engine running.
 

Bullied at school, insecure, wife’s left them. The whole package. Horrendous people. Easy to bribe I imagine.

[Well b back 3,179]

25 minutes ago, JF said:

Because every club in the PL signed up for this before the season started. Dermot Gallagher was just on Sky talking about it and he’s saying it’s here to stay but maybe not in this format, at the end of the season there may be tweaks to the rules (like the Souness idea) Or another may be used. He’s right in what he’s saying though, the fans may not like it but all of the decisions were correct because offside is offside, you are on or you’re not. For me every decision over the weekend involving several clubs should have been goals. but over analysing of human error is what has got us to this point and now we’re getting the harshest of correct decisions no one wants it. To quote a common phrase used on the forum, we should have been careful what we wished for.

Can’t agree sorry

1) for Pukki’s goal as pointed out by Farke they have used a frame further on that makes him offside. Side on at the right angle he is a yard onside when the ball is kicked.

2) The rule for offside is clear, for the attacker your arm does not count and is not part of your body with regards offside - so why was the Palace goal disallowed

3) VAR once rumbled with the frame for the Pukki goal changed the reason it was disallowed

4) They claim the handball by Van **** was inconclusive. The stills clearly show the ball controlled with his hand. The ref on the pitch was questioned by Coady and told it was to far away - since when did VAR change that rule ?

5) If they have nothing to hide why not charge Farke, Coady and Pep ( his comments this morning ) as they have clearly used words although cryptic clearly accuse the FA / VAR of cheating and finding an angle to get to their decisions. I cannot ever recall managers / players making such allegations and not being charged.

6) and finally why have the FA / EPL not made a statement this morning. They are being accused of anything from just implementing it wrong through to allegations of corruption. They have buried their heads in the sand and think this will just go away.

It is not just the Pukki goal it was others that are clearly wrong. We rarely had this much controversy before the technology was introduced.

Cant. even see why Liverpool and Manchester Utd fans are complaining about us complaining as they will still get bias decisions, but at least when a goal is given or disallowed we can celebrate or complain instantly.

Football is dying fast.

[JF 694]

5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Can’t agree sorry

1) for Pukki’s goal as pointed out by Farke they have used a frame further on that makes him offside. Side on at the right angle he is a yard onside when the ball is kicked.

2) The rule for offside is clear, for the attacker your arm does not count and is not part of your body with regards offside - so why was the Palace goal disallowed

3) VAR once rumbled with the frame for the Pukki goal changed the reason it was disallowed

4) They claim the handball by Van **** was inconclusive. The stills clearly show the ball controlled with his hand. The ref on the pitch was questioned by Coady and told it was to far away - since when did VAR change that rule ?

5) If they have nothing to hide why not charge Farke, Coady and Pep ( his comments this morning ) as they have clearly used words although cryptic clearly accuse the FA / VAR of cheating and finding an angle to get to their decisions. I cannot ever recall managers / players making such allegations and not being charged.

6) and finally why have the FA / EPL not made a statement this morning. They are being accused of anything from just implementing it wrong through to allegations of corruption. They have buried their heads in the sand and think this will just go away.

It is not just the Pukki goal it was others that are clearly wrong. We rarely had this much controversy before the technology was introduced.

Cant. even see why Liverpool and Manchester Utd fans are complaining about us complaining as they will still get bias decisions, but at least when a goal is given or disallowed we can celebrate or complain instantly.

Football is dying fast.

Just to clarify I agree by the way. I’m not arguing in favour of var, just relaying the Gallagher comments. He also said that the var technology used in the PL is the most advanced used in the world 

Edited December 30, 2019 by JF

[Jim Smith 2,314]

The fact that characters like Dermot Gallagher or Mike Riley are in charge of something like this with huge influence over a multi million pound sporting jugonaut is laughable. Jumped up jobsworths. Just look at Gallagher on sky to see the sort of characters we are dealing with here. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

8 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Bottom line is these referees aren’t willing to take responsibility for the game they are officiating. Won’t do interviews, won’t explain themselves, won’t release mic recordings, won’t release VAR reasonings. Just gutless, spineless mini hitlers ready and willing to ruin football games then run out to the taxi outside the ground with the engine running.
 

Bullied at school, insecure, wife’s left them. The whole package. Horrendous people. Easy to bribe I imagine.

This. 

[Well b back 3,179]

Just now, JF said:

Just to clarify I agree by the way. I’m not arguing in favour of var, just relaying the Gallagher comments 

R ok lol. Sorry just getting so uptight not always reading everything.

The FA themselves or the EPL need to make comments. With managers and players questioning as to wether the correct info is being used they need to say something quick.

[Making Plans 936]

24 minutes ago, JF said:

Agreed. It’s here to stay in this format this season so we have to hope at some point that we get such a call go in our favour to even it out

Ah but. Wasn't VAR introduced to ensure that there were no errors to even out.

If anything we have more errors now than we had before and really there is no hope of eliminating errors if people sitting in front of a TV screen are incapable of making the right decision.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

this is interesting and perhaps not surprising. I don’t recall this offside nonsense in the World Cup 

[Well b back 3,179]

10 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

this is interesting and perhaps not surprising. I don’t recall this offside nonsense in the World Cup 

Wow !

The IFAB have told the premier league they are implementing the technology incorrectly and just as Farke said they are using numerous angles until they get to the result they wanted, that is some accusation. That is wide open to corruption charges as it effectively says you favour whichever team you want using it the way they are using it.

Thats some statement and if the report is right the Premier League have been told to stop using the technology like that with immediate effect. No wonder Farke and Coady have not been charged.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

"Clear and obvious still remains - it's an important principle. There should not be a lot of time spent to find something marginal," Lukas Brud, Ifab’s general secretary

 

If I’m Norwich City management or any other team that’s been screwed by this I’m already getting the lawyers ready at this point

[Peanuts 150]

11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

this is interesting and perhaps not surprising. I don’t recall this offside nonsense in the World Cup 

Very interesting comments from the IFAB man there. It does seem odd that the EPL were one of the last big competitions to introduce VAR and yet seem to have gotten it so horribly wrong.

Does anyone have statistics for VAR reviews in the EPL this season?

In this interview the same IFAB guy says they average 1 review every 3 matches, surely we're way ahead of that this season?

[K Lo 221]

24 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

this is interesting and perhaps not surprising. I don’t recall this offside nonsense in the World Cup 

"Wolverhampton Wanderers, Crystal Palace, Norwich City, Brighton and Hove Albion and Sheffield United all found themselves on the end of VAR decisions"

- None of the big teams then. That's rather suspicious.

[Well b back 3,179]

2 minutes ago, K Lo said:

"Wolverhampton Wanderers, Crystal Palace, Norwich City, Brighton and Hove Albion and Sheffield United all found themselves on the end of VAR decisions"

- None of the big teams then. That's rather suspicious.

It could also say Liverpool, Southampton, Bournemouth ( both of which the league wouldn’t want to see relegated ) Spurs and Man City were on the right end of decisions - that’s just as suspicious.

[Well b back 3,179]

10 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

Very interesting comments from the IFAB man there. It does seem odd that the EPL were one of the last big competitions to introduce VAR and yet seem to have gotten it so horribly wrong.

Does anyone have statistics for VAR reviews in the EPL this season?

In this interview the same IFAB guy says they average 1 review every 3 matches, surely we're way ahead of that this season?

We are having a min 3 - 4 every game wow. 

[Well b back 3,179]

32 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

 

this is interesting and perhaps not surprising. I don’t recall this offside nonsense in the World Cup 

I know there are many threads on here about VAR but I think you should consider opening this as thread in its own right.

[Well b back 3,179]

The overwhelmingly feeling is beginning to grow. This is what Garth Crooks had to say

Another referee might see the same incident totally differently and he would be entitled to that also. We were told that VAR was there to 'assist' the referee, not overturn his decision. What has taken place, by those pressing the buttons, is bordering on a coup d'etat and Fifa should stop it.

 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

29 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

Very interesting comments from the IFAB man there. It does seem odd that the EPL were one of the last big competitions to introduce VAR and yet seem to have gotten it so horribly wrong.

Does anyone have statistics for VAR reviews in the EPL this season?

In this interview the same IFAB guy says they average 1 review every 3 matches, surely we're way ahead of that this season?

We seem to have half a dozen every game 

[First Wazzock 902]

How do we know that the 'still' the decision is being made on is the exact second the ball left a team-mates foot? 

[JF 694]

28 minutes ago, First Wazzock said:

How do we know that the 'still' the decision is being made on is the exact second the ball left a team-mates foot? 

That was a question that Gallagher was asked and he said something along the lines that they have the best var technology available to freeze the image at point of contact 

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, JF said:

That was a question that Gallagher was asked and he said something along the lines that they have the best var technology available to freeze the image at point of contact 

That is a rubbish answer. They are using video cameras which image at 50 frames per second. So if we assume the exposure time is 1/50th of second the light is being captured for a full 1/50th of a second. On a pass like Vrancic made the ball is traveling at what 40 feet per second initially? If so, a ball travel distance of over 9 inches is all blurred together into that frame. So let's reduce the exposure time to 1/00th sec, that is better because now the ball travel distance blurred together is now less than 5 inches, unfortunately the other 1/50th sec isn't being captured at all... so no you really can't freeze the image "at the point of contact" - that is an absolute lie. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Surfer

[Mason 47 1,371]

The very fact that people are now trying to find practical solutions in changing existing rules to try and justify VAR is a joke in itself. 

How the incident should go is, goal is scored, referee decides the goal looks good to him; asks his assistants and VAR if they have any objections. VAR says it's bloody tight and he might be a fraction off, does the ref want to use the screen to check? He does, looks at the footage, and (If he has his head on straight) decides it's tight but nothing more, goal scored. Maybe 30-40 seconds, tops.

That's it. That should be the impact of VAR. Not taking 2 minutes trying to find a way to prove the inside of Pukki's shoulder is half an inch past the tip of Alderweireld's nose.

[Making Plans 936]

Looks like someone is at last talking sense

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50944416

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

7 hours ago, JF said:

I just don’t think when it was bought in they realised just how many decisions were going to be ruled off by a couple of millimetres. The technology is sound and the reasoning is sound in a cold and emotionless way, you’re simply offside or onside. But as we know football isn’t emotionless. Technology has been introduced without the hindsight that the laws of the game will cause more controversy coupled with that technology. An idea has to be in place where the laws of the game are changed so the two can co exist with minimum controversy. 

The technology isn't sound, goal line technology appears to be pretty solid because it is looking directly across the pitch on the goal line. The offside technology isn't sound - I don't know how many cameras there are but clearly there aren't enough and as Jim has just said the margin of error is significantly greater than the margin of 'offside' that they are giving, and the margin of error is clearly greater near the centre line than it is in the penalty area.

It is also unsound if they are not using the correct frame which it seems pretty clear they weren't in Pukki's case - that cannot have been an accident, and that is before we start looking at the way the line itself was manipulated.

Lineker was spot on when he said you can see instantly whether it is offside or not, and it is blindingly obvious when you look at it frame by frame that Pukki wasn't even level, he was comfortably onside. The lino thought so, the ref thought so and even the Spurs defenders thought so, not a single one of them appealed for offside. The clubs signed up for the correction of clear and obvious errors - there wasn't one so VAR should never have been involved at all.

That it took several minutes and two or three differing explanations as to why Pukki was offside tells its own story, and it is not a very pleasant one - the Premier League have been caught red-handed in effectively match fixing and unless they come clean and do something about it very quickly it is the beginning of the end for them (hopefully) because this rubbish isn't worth watching.

[hogesar 9,609]

Also, as a side point as I'm not sure I've seen it mentioned - doesnt VAR actually damage strikers acting like strikers?

Gambling on getting in front of a defender on a cross or playing on the shoulder of a defender to turn and run in behind is barely a gamble worth making anymore!

[The Real Buh 3,423]

A new day has dawned and, oh, would you look at that. Teemu Pukki is still onside.

[Well b back 3,179]

He is and so is Saha o and look Van **** has handled the ball but it’s inconclusive as he didn’t have the goalie gloves on so couldn’t catch it.

Farke and Coadie still haven’t been charged by the FA for calling them cheats, oh well.