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dylanisabaddog

Souness on VAR/offside

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After the Liverpool Wolves game, Graeme Souness suggested that the offside rule be amended to say that a player is onside if any part of his body is onside when the ball is kicked. As it's the first sensible thing he has said in his life I thought it was worth a mention 

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I didn't hear that, but I was thinking the same. That if there is any overlap betweeen any part of the attacker's body and any part of that of the defender then the player is onside. Only if there is a gap is the attacker offside. That ought to be simpler to decide.

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I heard someone on the radio yesterday say it should be jugded on where the players feet were.

For the Pukki 'goal' against Spurs he would've been on-side, the current system penalises the striker in favour of the defender as the natural body movement will always put the striker offside.

I also agree that the Souness idea would also work.

Lineker tweeted that he thought the decision should be decided by the VAR ref only taking one look at the incident as he said that if the can't make their mind up on one view he concluded that it couldn't be described as an obvious mistake.

I expect there will be a lot of debate before the summer when they'll decide what the new interpretation will be.

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9 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I didn't hear that, but I was thinking the same. That if there is any overlap betweeen any part of the attacker's body and any part of that of the defender then the player is onside. Only if there is a gap is the attacker offside. That ought to be simpler to decide.

It will still entail drawing a thin line across which a player can be millimeters off or on side.

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Personally I prefer Lineke's idea. No lines drawn, just look at the still picture of when the ball is kicked and decide if the player is ahead or not. Just like the lineo has to do now but with the advantage of a still picture of the exact moment.

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

After the Liverpool Wolves game, Graeme Souness suggested that the offside rule be amended to say that a player is onside if any part of his body is onside when the ball is kicked. As it's the first sensible thing he has said in his life I thought it was worth a mention 

Goes back to the "in line is onside" mantra and does seem sensible and practical.

 

With the pace of strikers today (25+ feet per second), cameras not in line being,  frame refresh rates & manual judgements of when the ball was actually passed the margin of error is currently larger than the distance by which players are being called offside.  The technology is not yet accurate enough to be deployed to such a level. 

 

How many goals would lineker, owen , henry or shearer have had with this technology in place? 

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If this nonsense is to continue then I think the clear and obvious test should be applied to off side  as it is with other VAR decisions, apparently, no need for a slide rule, just go with the ref unless it’s clearly the wrong decision.

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40 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Scrap VAR for offsides altogether and use it just for blatant dives in the penalty box.

99% of offside calls pre VAR were either correct or understandable / tolerable.

I think that's true. One of the aspects of the game that has improved noticeably over the years has been the standard of calls made by linesmen over offsides.

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Whatever you do , there will be a line. And then the "millimetres" argument will start again. Feet, armpits, hair , daylight all are critiqued. Souness is talking about a law change. VAR wont alter becuase of a Law change. 

The main problem with VAR isn't the offside element . Its the application of the subjective aspect - and it is this aspect that has been disastrously applied by Riley and PGMOL . 

However on the subject of VAR and the offsides, it is the technology that is the issue. In no other sport is a linear decision being made on an area that can be 50- 70 yards long, with a trigger (when the ball is played) that can be from outside of the area in question. All photos I've seen of Pukkis goal are inconclusive when you take the two above factors into account - not one still of the ball being played for example. I'm reliably informed that in other leagues, where it is inconclusive they stick with the on-field decision. 

 

Linear decisions , like Goaline , has a line to triangulate against. No such line exists for offside, as it does for hawk eye in tennis. 

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If you want to scrap it for offside then scrap it all together.

The now ridiculous linesman not raising his flag immediately is further complicating things. Kane would have been flagged before Lewis handball.

We hear how it successful in other sports but it is applied differently from football and more is taken into consideration before a decision is made. And the decisions are not based on anything other than clear facts. And there is multiple cameras in use.

No other rule change has caused so much controversy as this since the ability to bring in overseas players.

 

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25 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The now ridiculous linesman not raising his flag immediately is further complicating things. Kane would have been flagged before Lewis handball.

Yes, Kane is offside, Lewis is is quick enough to get in front of him,  gets upended with arms flailing and Spurs get the free kick.  How was that little sequence of events ok.

For the second goal, Trybull is brought down in a clear foul. Even if the ref didn't see it a linesman should have. 

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1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, Kane is offside, Lewis is is quick enough to get in front of him,  gets upended with arms flailing and Spurs get the free kick.  How was that little sequence of events ok.

For the second goal, Trybull is brought down in a clear foul. Even if the ref didn't see it a linesman should have. 

That's because many calls are a matter of opinion and how individuals see the same incident differently.

We were wrong to think VAR would end controversy, it hasn't. Changing offside from a matter of opinion to a matter of fact has done nothing to end the argument. It still comes down to a matter of opinion as to where you draw a line and what frame you choose.

Back to the flag and live with the mistakes I say. 

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4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

After the Liverpool Wolves game, Graeme Souness suggested that the offside rule be amended to say that a player is onside if any part of his body is onside when the ball is kicked. As it's the first sensible thing he has said in his life I thought it was worth a mention 

As long as their feet and head and are on and if it’s scored with a different body part. Ie. Chest, was also on, then I cannot see what the confusion would be. No need for the etch a sketch to come out

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3 hours ago, ricardo said:

It will still entail drawing a thin line across which a player can be millimeters off or on side.

Yes, but I thought - this may be wrong - decisions were being made on the relevance or otherwise of a particular part of the body - the armpits? - rather than just taking which ever is the most extreme part of the body, irrespective of whether it is the same part in the case of both players?

Certainly in the one still pic I have seen the extreme part of the Spurs player, his foot in this case, certainly seems closer to the goal than the extreme part of Pukki's body, but the vertical line appears to be drawn through the armpits.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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The rule apparently says any part of the body apart from the arms and hands. So the armpit counts as the shoulder.

Not sure Holt would have preferred to armpit the ball in rather than head it.

To add to the farce of decisions, Dermot Gallacher (I missed his opinion of our incident) when ask his opinion about Guendozi pulling back Abraham in the penalty area, said it wasn't a penalty because Abraham didn't have the ball. So we are obviously adopting NFL rules as well.

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4 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

I didn't hear that, but I was thinking the same. That if there is any overlap betweeen any part of the attacker's body and any part of that of the defender then the player is onside. Only if there is a gap is the attacker offside. That ought to be simpler to decide.

This. It’s essentially the clear daylight argument. Whether you take a channel spanning out from the players head or highlight their torso or whatever if they are overlapping then give the attacker the benefit. Should be quick to check. 

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3 hours ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Scrap VAR for offsides altogether and use it just for blatant dives in the penalty box.

99% of offside calls pre VAR were either correct or understandable / tolerable.

Yes, penalties plus goaline. We all tolerated the lino for offside previously , it's still human error now, or bias/corruption. 

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4 hours ago, ZLF said:

How many goals would lineker, owen , henry or shearer have had with this technology in place

Shearer would be in favour of VAR being harsher cos it would mean he'd hang on to a few more of his goalscoring records for a while longer, never won an FA cup or European level  cup though did he and VAR cant change that.

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Just watched the Souness clip and while yes his suggestion would give an advantage to the attacker and lead to more goals it doesn't address the fundamental issue which is that the VAR technology is not accurate at the distances it's being used to determine given the speed of play and frame rate of the video.

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5 hours ago, Van wink said:

If this nonsense is to continue then I think the clear and obvious test should be applied to off side  as it is with other VAR decisions, apparently, no need for a slide rule, just go with the ref unless it’s clearly the wrong decision.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

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Sourness is bang on, it needn’t take rocket science to easily rectify this nonsense killing football.

And there I was before this season naively thinking the whole VAR thing would put teams on a much more level playing field, when in fact, when needed, it’s just made it even easier to stop a Leicester ever happening again! Corruption from the Premier League at it’s finest 👏

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