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The Great Mass Debater

VAR Table

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7 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

If you want to ignore the impact VAR has had on us, that's up to you, but even just 7 more points would put us right in the mix, rather than 6 points behind 19th...

But what about how VAR has impacted everyone else? You genuinely think we’re the only club who have “lost points” because VAR has changed decisions against them?

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I'll just leave this here:

PREMIER LEAGUE TABLE WITH AND WITHOUT VAR IN 2019-20 SEASON

WITH VAR

1. Liverpool - 58 points

2. Leicester City - 45 points 

3. Manchester City - 44 points

4. Chelsea - 36 points 

5. Manchester United - 31 points

6. Tottenham - 30 points

7. Wolves - 30 points

8. Sheffield United - 29 points

9. Crystal Palace - 28 points

10. Arsenal - 27 points

11. Everton - 25 points

12. Southampton - 25 points

13. Newcastle United - 25 points

14. Brighton - 24 points

15. Burnley - 24 points

16. West Ham - 22 points

17. Aston Villa - 21 points

18. Bournemouth - 20 points

19. Watford - 19 points

20. Norwich City - 14 points

 

WITHOUT VAR

1. Liverpool - 56 points

2. Manchester City - 49 points 

3. Leicester City - 42 points

4. Chelsea - 36 points 

5. Wolves - 34 points

6. Sheffield United - 32 points

7. Arsenal - 30 points

8. Tottenham - 29 points

9. Manchester United - 29 points

10. Everton - 28 points

11. Crystal Palace - 27 points

12. Newcastle United - 25 points

13. West Ham - 24 points

14. Burnley - 24 points

15. Aston Villa - 23 points

16. Brighton - 20 points

17. Southampton - 20 points

18. Norwich - 20 points

19. Watford - 19 points

20. Bournemouth - 17 points

 

That's the impact VAR has had taking into account the effect on all other sides, so YES, it has had a serious detrimental effect.

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58 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

I'll just leave this here:

PREMIER LEAGUE TABLE WITH AND WITHOUT VAR IN 2019-20 SEASON

(Aggy - edited to keep the post short)

Right, but is that saying all VAR decisions or just the ones that were wrong?
 

Because it seems to have only added six points for us rather than the 8-12 you suggested earlier. I thought seven tops, so whoever compiled your list seems to be closer to me than you on points lost. But of all the VAR decisions against us, I don’t think any were wrong. (Other than perhaps Pukki’s offside on the basis the technology isn’t perfect.)

So are you saying “we would have been better off if the refs got the decision wrong, and the wrong decision wasn’t changed?” 

 

Edited by Aggy

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Because of while we would have gained six points other clubs would have lost points increasing the swing. 

I fail to see how anyone who has watched PL this season can't see that.

Not sure how having a red card reversed may have effected things but surely it must?

I have found VAR a bigger frustration than us being bottom. VAR Of The Day every Saturday night doesn't help.

 

Edited by nutty nigel

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6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Because of while we would have gained six points other clubs would have lost points increasing the swing. 

 

 

I don’t follow. Actual points = 14. Indy’s table above points = 20. So we’ve gained six points based on VAR decisions against us in our games.
 

Other teams losing points “in the swing” doesn’t mean we would get fewer points from our games....

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8 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So we've lost 6 points and Bournemouth have gained 3 points. That's 9 points difference.

Yes not disputed. But if VAR made the correct decision then we shouldn’t have been entitled to those six points, and Bournemouth should have been entitled to their three. 

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The tables we are looking at are very subjective. They only count when VAR has over ruled a ref. There is also times when VAR should have over ruled a ref if it was working properly. I don't post often at all so hope the pictures come over. 

Screenshot_20200112-211333_Facebook.jpg

Screenshot_20200112-211316_Facebook.jpg

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Not saying this is better but shows you can make stats work any way you want. As far as I can see all the VAR decisions that have gone against us have been correct by the letter of the law apart from the offside against spurs. 

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1 minute ago, Canaries north said:

Not saying this is better but shows you can make stats work any way you want. As far as I can see all the VAR decisions that have gone against us have been correct by the letter of the law apart from the offside against spurs. 

As you say, it's subjective. When they finally decide the way forward, probably next season, it will be possible to produce more accurate figures.

I don't accept the VAR decisions where they choose which frame to use. It's back to human error which it was brought in to stop.

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VAR has come out and admitted mistakes made on a number of occasions this season and to my memory we haven't had an apology yet. If that's the case then yes they have overturned some on field decisions but they think they were correct to do so. I drink with a watford fan and VAR has admitted 3 mistakes against them and 1 in their favour. I hate to say it but that makes a different story to the first table posted that just says if VAR didn't overturn any decisions. All football fans hate VAR and i hope if it affects us next year it will be better but for now everyone thinks it's against them. 

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13 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Yes not disputed. But if VAR made the correct decision then we shouldn’t have been entitled to those six points, and Bournemouth should have been entitled to their three. 

12 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I think you'll find it's the other way round buddy.

Err, no. Without VAR we would be (according to Indy’s table above) six points better off.  So if the decision VAR made was right,  then we were never entitled to those six points anyway and we aren’t “worse off”. 

1 minute ago, Canaries north said:

VAR has come out and admitted mistakes made on a number of occasions this season and to my memory we haven't had an apology yet. If that's the case then yes they have overturned some on field decisions but they think they were correct to do so. I drink with a watford fan and VAR has admitted 3 mistakes against them and 1 in their favour. I hate to say it but that makes a different story to the first table posted that just says if VAR didn't overturn any decisions. All football fans hate VAR and i hope if it affects us next year it will be better but for now everyone thinks it's against them. 

Yep, but some VAR decisions have been correct (I’d say a lot actually, other than the offside decisions where I don’t think the technology is good enough to tell) . So that shows refs make mistakes. So is this season any different to others? If we don’t have VAR, refs get things wrong and teams suffer.
 

The offside technology in particular I don’t think works well enough to rely on to the degree we currently do. And we need to look at how VAR is used - apparently the first season in the bundesliga was much the same as how it’s been for us this season but had since been changed so refs go to a monitor much more often. It sounds like everywhere it has been implemented had similar issues  to us in the first season.
 

But I’m not sure it makes any difference really to our league position - the “best” of these VAR table still has us in the relegation zone, the “worst” has us virtually the same points clear of safety as well. 

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Each to their own Aggy. 

For me, if VAR is just as vulnerable to bad decisions as the old system was then there's no point to it.

And if you take an average of your best and worst it still makes a sizeable negative difference to us.

 

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I agree with you on offside as being such a grey area most of the time. The decisions VAR have apologised for are hand balls in the build up to a goal (a rule I don't like but is supposed to be clear) like the west ham one the other night but that they were not spotted. As well as clear trips in the penalty area when they were not willing to over rule the ref at the start of the season. We have had none of them. If the refs decisions had stood for right or wrong then the first table would be more accurate. if VAR had ended up with the right decision then the second. I guess it falls somewhere in between. What ever it doesn't help us. 

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Its been brought in with no thought. So they've been making it up as they go along.

As far as I can tell there's no real directive to how far back a passage of play can affect the outcome.

Clear and obvious isn't used for offside.

If the referee thinks he sees a red card tackle and a different referee somewhere else disagrees the it's a difference if opinion and not a clear and obvious mistake.

I could go on...

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37 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Its been brought in with no thought. So they've been making it up as they go along.

As far as I can tell there's no real directive to how far back a passage of play can affect the outcome.

Clear and obvious isn't used for offside.

If the referee thinks he sees a red card tackle and a different referee somewhere else disagrees the it's a difference if opinion and not a clear and obvious mistake.

I could go on...

Don’t disagree with any of that. Not being a massive follower of European football I hadn’t really realised it has been used on the continent for a couple of seasons already - I wonder if we had been speaking to people over there to see what works.

interesting quote in the below article:

“The key turning point was that once the referees started using the monitors, the players could see the incidents and started accepting the decisions. “

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50392207

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Clear and obvious ...... it has been proved this weekend that the clear and obvious point of VAR is to protect referees. 

It stops the previous insane attacks made by pundits on referees after watching numerous replays of an incident which takes a split second. The pundits no longer criticise referees ...... they criticise VAR.

Ever since the first ball was kicked in the 1800s the game has been about opinions and mistakes. Mistakes by forwards, mistakes by defenders, mistakes by goalkeepers and, yes, mistakes by referees. The referees are now protected ......... but at what cost?

Clear and obvious. To me the worst decision made by VAR (or to be more precise, a referee several miles away using technology) was not one involving us but was the foul on Theo Walcott on Saturday when it was so clear and obvious that he had been held and pulled back that any amateur referee could not fail to see it on the replay. Unfortunately for Everton, Walcott did not throw himself to the ground so no foul was given. The authorities continually complain about simulation, and rightly so. But what are players to do? If they do not fall over the foul, or the penalty, is not given. When was the last time you saw a penalty awarded for a foul on a player who did not fall over? The slightest touch results in players falling over everywhere and they feel, in the words of those same pundits mentioned earlier, "He had every right to go down there!". Well Theo Walcott certainly had every right to go down, but he didn't, so no penalty was awarded. But I bet he goes down next time!

So, in my mind, VAR has achieved its main objective. It has stopped referees being criticised.

What a shame we can't go back to the days when referees and linesmen (Oh, sorry, Assistant Referees) played a meaningful part in the game and allowed it to flow. And, yes, like the players, made mistakes.

I certainly have no problem with goal line technology, but VAR seems to be changing the game I have loved for so long,.along with other unnecessary changes which seem to to be made each new season.

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One point that flows from these tables is whether we "deserve" to have 6 extra points is it (i.e. whether the decisions that VAR ultimately came to were correct) its more I think to illustrate that if VAR did not exist (i.e. in any other premier league season) we would have 6 extra points, teams like Brighton and Bournemouth would have a couple less and we would therefore be right in the mix still in terms of the relegation battle.

 

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I think this comes down to how you look at VAR. I think most supporters wanted it as it would stop referees giving decisions to the big clubs as we thought they did. I have no problem with VAR when it gets it right but it is getting it wrong on so many occasions. The fact is I don't think it has happened too many times against us. Offside is so difficult to judge and we have been on the wrong end of some close decisions but as said in all the times VAR  has apologised I think the only one for us was a penalty against Man U that in the end would not have made a difference. Without VAR yes we would be better off but because of wrong decisions by the referee. I don't personally think VAR has been overly harsh on us and if anything the referees has been getting things wrong in our favour. Don't get me wrong I would like VAR scrapped now but I also don't blame it for us being where we are. 

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8 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

One point that flows from these tables is whether we "deserve" to have 6 extra points is it (i.e. whether the decisions that VAR ultimately came to were correct) its more I think to illustrate that if VAR did not exist (i.e. in any other premier league season) we would have 6 extra points, teams like Brighton and Bournemouth would have a couple less and we would therefore be right in the mix still in terms of the relegation battle.

 

That's my view as well Jim.

Due to VAR, we've lost quite a few points we wouldn't have (and absolutely shouldn't have in 1-2 cases), and other sides have gained points they wouldn't have, leaving us at the worst end of the swing.

I think most fans would be far more comfortable now if we were on 20-22 points, which doesn't leave us needing at least 2-3 wins before we're even outside the relegation zone.

As to whether or not the VAR decisions are correct, it should NEVER be used for marginal offsides unless the ref/assistant have concerns and ask for a check, there's no reason it shouldn't be used to check fouls or handballs in the buildup either, and Red Card decisions should always lie with the on-field ref - unless it's a clear case of mistaken identity or similar.

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6 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

"offside is so difficult to judge"

VAR is for clear and obvious mistakes.

 

Nutty, I’m not sure that applies to our premiership, now VAR is for making sure mistakes can be covered up by manipulating the camera angles for offside, giving questionable penalties, even when no clear mistake has been made and disallowed goals because the ball accidentally hit players arm ten minutes ago during the build up!

The offsides and the handball rule made up by this leagues 🔔 ends along with the referees not willing to take the responsibility of looking at the monitor pitch side to make the call means we don’t need referees anymore all officiating can be done remotely, no point in having a referee. 

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My point has always been that every team who are not winning games will have a gripe about VAR. we all know its useless but we are all in the same boat. Go on any message board and you will see the same thing. Have we really ended up with the worst luck or do we just think so. 

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