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The Great Mass Debater

VAR Table

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5 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

My point has always been that every team who are not winning games will have a gripe about VAR. we all know its useless but we are all in the same boat. Go on any message board and you will see the same thing. Have we really ended up with the worst luck or do we just think so. 

So no fans in the premiership want it as it is, says to me it’s a farce and kills the game, so something must be done.

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Agree completely but it's the love child of the people running football and not the fans. I'm sure we are stuck with it so let's just hope they can get it sorted and soon. 

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45 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

My point has always been that every team who are not winning games will have a gripe about VAR. we all know its useless but we are all in the same boat. Go on any message board and you will see the same thing. Have we really ended up with the worst luck or do we just think so. 

Yes of course they will, just like we always gripe about refs. But there are winners and losers in this season because the whole thing is basically on trial. It's my belief that so far we have been one of the losers. Most other clubs fans say that too about US.

Moving forwards VAR could end my 53 year stint going to Carrow Road. What is the point of being unable to celebrate even the greatest goals, like Pukkis against Spurs. Or having to have a toned down celebration a few minutes later like Cantwell's in the next game. Or not being able to celebrate a penalty save. Or seeing an opposition player sent off and wander back on minutes later.

I liked giving referees and linesmen stick. If the decision was against us it was wrong. If it turned out different later on MOTD who really cared.

That's the thing about live football in the stadium, us supporters are part of it and in a small way can have influence. Or we could. Not anymore though. The game is now for tv audiences who can pontificate about decisions over a nice cup of Rosy Lea while having lines drawn on the screen to ooh and ahh over.

Edited by nutty nigel

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I as I have said before i drink with a watford fan. He will happily list the VAR mistakes against them every week in the pub. He has stopped now they have started winning. From memory. Handball in lead up to goal at Newcastle, Var said sorry missed it goal shouldn't have counted. Handball in lead up to goal Southampton,  VAR said sorry goal shouldn't have stood. Foul in penalty area against spurs, var said sorry definite penalty. They are the only 3 I can remember but trust me he can go on for ages. Alen Shearer said on match of the day they had been on the wrong end of some shocking decisions. We remember our VAR moments and forget the ones we see on tv against others. Luckily all the others in the bar support teams outside the premier league or are not really that bothered. If not all we would talk about is VAR. I think we have been on the end of some bad decisions but I don't think we are alone. 

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I also agree with you on the referee making the decision. If he makes a bad decision I will be angry for an hour at most. If VAR makes a mistake I'm angry for days as I can't work out how they could not see what I can see with all the angles given. I can accept human error in the heat of a game but not when they are looking at so many cameras. 

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There's an ever widening chasm between stadium and tv football and stadium football is the loser. Even though it's more expensive.

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23 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

A stat I heard yesterday was that Liverpool have taken an astonishing 87 points from the last 90 points available in the PL. Var or not there is no stopping that. 
 

edit

I’ve not checked that stat so it could be 🐴💩!

Edited by JF

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Yes of course they will, just like we always gripe about refs. But there are winners and losers in this season because the whole thing is basically on trial. It's my belief that so far we have been one of the losers. Most other clubs fans say that too about US.

Moving forwards VAR could end my 53 year stint going to Carrow Road. What is the point of being unable to celebrate even the greatest goals, like Pukkis against Spurs. Or having to have a toned down celebration a few minutes later like Cantwell's in the next game. Or not being able to celebrate a penalty save. Or seeing an opposition player sent off and wander back on minutes later.

I liked giving referees and linesmen stick. If the decision was against us it was wrong. If it turned out different later on MOTD who really cared.

That's the thing about live football in the stadium, us supporters are part of it and in a small way can have influence. Or we could. Not anymore though. The game is now for tv audiences who can pontificate about decisions over a nice cup of Rosy Lea while having lines drawn on the screen to ooh and ahh over.

VAR isn’t the reason Pukki’s goal got ruled out against Spurs. According to the current rules and the technology available, he was offside. The rules of the game are the reason it was offside. Now the rules might be stupid, the whole arm pit thing is a joke, especially when the technology isn’t quite there. But that’s not VAR generally being a problem - that’s just that it hasn’t been implemented well and the laws of the game haven’t been suitably adapted to suit what we’ve got. If there was a rule like there needs to be clear day light between the striker and the defender, then it would be much easier to tell if he’s offside or not - nothing to do with body shapes, there”d be more leeway on the shots per second of the camera etc. 

Penalty saves - players know not to go in the box. Quite easy not to. Then there won’t be a retake. It’s not VAR that’s the problem there either.

Agreed currently it’s being overused, not just for clear mistakes. But again, that’s how it’s being implemented, not the idea of VAR itself. The World Cup really seemed to have got the balance right - I thought it was done well there. Encouragingly, it seems to have been panned for a year or two most places that already use it, before finally getting it right. Hopefully next season it’ll be much better.

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16 minutes ago, JF said:

A stat I heard yesterday was that Liverpool have taken an astonishing 87 points from the last 90 points available in the PL. Var or not there is no stopping that. 
 

edit

I’ve not checked that stat so it could be 🐴💩!

They've taken 61 from 63 this season that's prob not possible. But it will be similar. They haven't won it though. Yet..

VAR clearly isn't the soul reason for anyone finishing anywhere. If we had 4 more points we'd still be bottom. But at the end of the season it could make a difference.

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32 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

There's an ever widening chasm between stadium and tv football and stadium football is the loser. Even though it's more expensive.

Sorry Nutty, not picking on you per se, just two posts in a row....  I agree with you here, I’m not sure that’s all VAR’s fault though (I know you’re not saying it is). For years, I’ve thought grassroots/lower league games are better live than bigger games. Fifty years ago I imagine you knew half the players, probably saw them in the pub after (before?!) the game, they were just like everyone else, you’d stand at the ground with your mates, good atmosphere etc.. That’s what you get at lower league games now. 

The top divisions are more and more about money - it’s a totally different game.

Edited by Aggy

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4 minutes ago, Aggy said:

VAR isn’t the reason Pukki’s goal got ruled out against Spurs. According to the current rules and the technology available, he was offside. The rules of the game are the reason it was offside. Now the rules might be stupid, the whole arm pit thing is a joke, especially when the technology isn’t quite there. But that’s not VAR generally being a problem - that’s just that it hasn’t been implemented well and the laws of the game haven’t been suitably adapted to suit what we’ve got. If there was a rule like there needs to be clear day light between the striker and the defender, then it would be much easier to tell if he’s offside or not - nothing to do with body shapes, there”d be more leeway on the shots per second of the camera etc. 

Penalty saves - players know not to go in the box. Quite easy not to. Then there won’t be a retake. It’s not VAR that’s the problem there either.

Agreed currently it’s being overused, not just for clear mistakes. But again, that’s how it’s being implemented, not the idea of VAR itself. The World Cup really seemed to have got the balance right - I thought it was done well there. Encouragingly, it seems to have been panned for a year or two most places that already use it, before finally getting it right. Hopefully next season it’ll be much better.

If that frame was 100% accurate for when the ball was kicked then you have a point. However it's not. 

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

If that frame was 100% accurate for when the ball was kicked then you have a point. However it's not. 

So.. you mean like what I said in the rest of my post then?

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1 minute ago, Aggy said:

So.. you mean like what I said in the rest of my post then?

Not really buddy. Because you are more trusting than me. 🙃

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

They've taken 61 from 63 this season that's prob not possible. But it will be similar. They haven't won it though. Yet..

VAR clearly isn't the soul reason for anyone finishing anywhere. If we had 4 more points we'd still be bottom. But at the end of the season it could make a difference.

I would imagine the stat I was told is correct then as they had a hell of a run in the back end of last season as well. The whole season has been atrocious for Var and I would imagine being in the stadium it’s even worse. Next season you would hope they will address the obvious teething problems of this 

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6 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Sorry Nutty, not picking on you per se, just two posts in a row....  I agree with you here, I’m not sure that’s all VAR’s fault though (I know you’re not saying it is). For years, I’ve thought grassroots/lower league games are better live than bigger games. Fifty years ago I imagine you knew half the players, probably saw them in the pub after (before?!) the game, they were just like everyone else, you’d stand at the ground with your mates, good atmosphere etc.. That’s what you get at lower league games now. 

The top divisions are more and more about money - it’s a totally different game.

My main purpose for going to Carrow Road is to support the Canaries. For me this is very partizan. I'm not interested in the pontificators in the south stand who say "he was offside" or "that was a pen that Doc had his arms all over him". Every decision that goes against us is wrong and the officials and opposition are good for any insult that's acceptable to the rules of the day. Support like this does make a difference. We recognise it in other stadiums. VAR has changed the landscape.

Grass Roots and lower league games are great for watching football as a neutral.

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31 minutes ago, JF said:

A stat I heard yesterday was that Liverpool have taken an astonishing 87 points from the last 90 points available in the PL. Var or not there is no stopping that. 
 

edit

I’ve not checked that stat so it could be 🐴💩!

I think they won their last 9 last season (drew before that 0-0 vs Everton), so I think it must be 88 from 90. Crazy.

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6 hours ago, Aggy said:

VAR isn’t the reason Pukki’s goal got ruled out against Spurs. According to the current rules and the technology available, he was offside. 

Yes it was. The referee and assistant judged him to be onside. It was VAR that came to an absurd conclusion that he was and overruled the ref. We have been through the discussion before that VAR does not have the inherent accuracy within it to make such calls. 

Edited by Surfer

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Got the Fenerbahce game on whilst marking some assessments. Used to live in turkey so keep half an eye on how Fener are doing.

Ref just have a pen. Ran over to the monitor, overturned his decision. Whole process took maybe 30 seconds or so.

VAR has a place in football but the implementation in the UK is lunacy. It can and does work, as other countries are demonstrating every week

Edited by kick it off
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6 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Got the Fenerbahce game on whilst marking some assessments. Used to love in turkey so keep half an eye on how Fener are doing.

Ref just have a pen. Ran over to the monitor, overturned his decision. Whole process took maybe 30 seconds or so.

VAR has a place in football but the implementation in the UK is lunacy. It can and does work, as other countries are demonstrating every week

Agreed. Referee needs to run over and make the decision. The Pukki/Spurs incident would have been believed to have been onside by 99/100 eyeballing it and in those situations that's the way it should go. I don't believe the technology is accurate enough to start ruling goals out either way. Leave that level for the goaline technology which I have no complaints over as decisions are instantaneous and don't affect play.

Regardless the implementation is ridiculous anyway. Let's say Byram fouls a striker (not given by the ref) causing the opposing player to fumble the ball out towards the touchline. If Byram races to keep it in then punts it upfield for Pukki to score the goal it would be ruled out. If on the other hand he allows it to roll out before throwing it up to Pukki then the goal stands. 

Its possible scenarios like the above that made me realise we need to dismiss this need to be super accurate (despite the fact that I don't think it is) as it just can't be consistently be applied for every situation and ruins the game for those in the stadium.

Save VAR for the off the ball incidents and clear mistakes that the referee can instantly rectify with the monitor. If it was applied that way I don't believe any fan of spurs would have been ruing the fact that "if only red and blue dotted lines were crudely drawn on the pitch at a certain moment in time his shoulder would have been offside" Just get on with it.

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