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dylanisabaddog

Liverpool VAR

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35 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Show me an offside that has been incorrectly given or over turned.

Has it not been proven that Pukki was onside ? And the Palace goal yesterday, it was his arm offside your arm is excluded in the current rules ? That’s 2 in 2 days. Maybe I have misinterpreted your quote ?

Can you say hand on heart that if that Liverpool goal was a Norwich goal it would have stood ?

VAR was meant to get rid of all controversy but every decision is now being questioned, sooner or later this will spill over and turn ugly wether it be on or off the pitch. It is no longer safe in my opinion to keep this going.

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12 minutes ago, ricardo said:

As Hughton said last night, this was bound to be contentious.

Hughton loves to defend 😂

Edited by Ward 3

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15 minutes ago, ricardo said:

That's not Lallana😉

Apologies, but a handball in the build up to a goal. Thought VAR was supposed to check these?

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31 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Yes - it is as clear as that.

But the technology cannot possibly tell the nanosecond the ball was passed (is it the point of contact or when the ball leaves the foot?) but is ‘pretending’ to do so and then trying to get a mm-precise answer from poor input information.  I’m convinced that most of the var offsides are actually incorrect as the wrong frame is being used.

It's **** - they're using standard frame rate cameras, which are rarely in line with play and interpolating the rest.

When you see them zooming into a mess of pixels (seems the cameras are not high resolution either), drawing a line where they THINK the players' armpit/knee/toe is, and factoring in the lack of high frame rate cameras to determine exactly when the ball was played, the actual margin of error must be far greater than the level of precision they are claiming when making the decisions.

It is not the fault of the technology per se, but they simply should not be using it when decisions are so marginal - precision does not equal accuracy.

Makes me think the powers that be were expecting this to be a perfect system with millimetre accuracy, where the underlying technology does not seem to make that possible.

Blame has to lie with the governing bodies who obviously didn't test the technology thoroughly enough before implementing it in this fashion this season.

Edited by Ian
Typo

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34 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

I'd rather us be in the championship again than watch var ruin the prem 

Agree with you!

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Jamie Carragher talking a lot of sense about VAR on Sky. 

They need to listen to the ex pro's.

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3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Apologies, but a handball in the build up to a goal. Thought VAR was supposed to check these?

They did.

Verdict inconclusive.

From the angle I've just seen that looks correct.

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I’m with Ricardo, it wasn’t handball by Lallana, might have been earlier by Van **** but how far back do you review?

The wolves offside, was very tight but at least it was the foot ahead of the line this time.

Last agree Carragher and other pros need to be listened to.

Liverpool looked knackered and Wolves could have nicked this game.

Edited by Indy

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3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

They did.

Verdict inconclusive.

From the angle I've just seen that looks correct.

But the still I posted was fairly conclusive and I doubt twitter has access to more angles than VAR

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1 minute ago, Indy said:

I’m with Ricardo, it wasn’t handball by Lapland, might have been earlier by Van **** but how far back do you review?

The wolves offside, was very tight but at least it was the foot ahead of the line this time.

Last agree Carragher and other pros need to be listened to.

Liverpool looked knackered and Wolves could have nicked this game.

It is in that bit of play ie from when the scoring team receives the ball until it goes out or in the net. If not for Llannana should be for Van ****.

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5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But the still I posted was fairly conclusive and I doubt twitter has access to more angles than VAR

I've seen it live and the replays.

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3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I've seen it live and the replays.

Of course, but what I'm saying is if some guy watching can screenshot that still image which quite clearly shows handball then VAR should be at very least equally capable of Darren the plasterer in Wycombe who took a screenshot on his iPad.

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1 hour ago, Foxy2600 said:

An armpit or an armpit hair ?? Is that what we’re down to now 

how long before we reduce ourselves to that old old aviation micro-measurement of a gnats **** ?? 

I think this offside thing needs to be down to a boot length. The ball has to cross the entire line to be a goal, similar should apply to offside. A player has to be a whole boot offside. Lets forget about little fingers or whatever it is that they are considering, lets just measure the position of the feet.

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Anyone want to share their opinion on that Man City goal!? Is it ok for the refs to assist in goals now?

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2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think this offside thing needs to be down to a boot length. The ball has to cross the entire line to be a goal, similar should apply to offside. A player has to be a whole boot offside. Lets forget about little fingers or whatever it is that they are considering, lets just measure the position of the feet.

Whatever video system you use there will be a line where you can be millimeters offside or onside.

I'd just as soon trust the man with a flag.

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The contempt they are showing any not big team is hilarious

 

they hate us. Our continuing existence is an inconvenience to them. 
 

why don’t they just make a European super league and F&£@ off and leave the rest of us behind to play football. Please. Go. Take your plastic fans and s£&@ referees with you. 

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47 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I think out of consistency it must remain for the entire season. You can't change the rule halfway through.

But they already have changed the rules halfway through.

We never had these mm decisions when it first started.

We should stick with goaline technology and ditch everything else.

Just having Referees & Linesmen was never as bad as this.

Yes they made mistakes but it's a lot easier to make a mistake on the spur of the moment than it is to make a mistake when you've looked at it umpteen times from different angles for 4 or 5 minutes.

 

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49 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Has it not been proven that Pukki was onside ? And the Palace goal yesterday, it was his arm offside your arm is excluded in the current rules ? That’s 2 in 2 days. Maybe I have misinterpreted your quote ?

Can you say hand on heart that if that Liverpool goal was a Norwich goal it would have stood ?

VAR was meant to get rid of all controversy but every decision is now being questioned, sooner or later this will spill over and turn ugly wether it be on or off the pitch. It is no longer safe in my opinion to keep this going.

Obviously not because both goals were ruled out. You can argue that they fiddled the frames but we are entering the realms of disputed moon landings if we go there.

This has been a weekend of many very tight decisions but they have been correct under the current interpretation of the rules. I would be more than happy to go back to the man with the flag. Sometimes he got it wrong but at least it didn't have us celebrating a goal then have it overturned 3 minutes later.

I watched Liverpool v Wolves, the decisions were tough for Wolves supporters to take but they were correct.

The team that has benifited most from VAR happens to be Brighton apparently. 

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5 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

But they already have changed the rules halfway through.

We never had these mm decisions when it first started.

We should stick with goaline technology and ditch everything else.

Just having Referees & Linesmen was never as bad as this.

Yes they made mistakes but it's a lot easier to make a mistake on the spur of the moment than it is to make a mistake when you've looked at it umpteen times from different angles for 4 or 5 minutes.

 

I don't believe we did. The only difference was they started to overule penalty decisions. Offsides have always been matters of fact.

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The bottom line is that the technology is not good enough to give these mm decisions.

Unless the camera is directly in line with the play then it is not a 100% accurate image.

As I've said before, in horse racing the only true image of the result is the photo taken by the "photo finish camera" that is pointing directly along the finishing line.

TV cameras, that do not point directly along the finishing line, and commentators who base their opinion on the TV pictures, frequently call it wrong.

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4 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

The bottom line is that the technology is not good enough to give these mm decisions.

Unless the camera is directly in line with the play then it is not a 100% accurate image.

As I've said before, in horse racing the only true image of the result is the photo taken by the "photo finish camera" that is pointing directly along the finishing line.

TV cameras, that do not point directly along the finishing line, and commentators who base their opinion on the TV pictures, frequently call it wrong.

A man with a flag is a lot cheaper, a lot less disruptive and ultimately a lot less contentious.

Bring back the flag.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Agree with you!

Jesus!! We agree on a few things recently 😂👍 whatever is going on haha

  • Haha 1

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9 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

Jesus!! We agree on a few things recently 😂👍 whatever is going on haha

Overuled by VAR😀

Edited by ricardo
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35 minutes ago, ricardo said:

A man with a flag is a lot cheaper, a lot less disruptive and ultimately a lot less contentious.

Bring back the flag.

For all the money that they have spent on VAR perhaps the cheapest and best solution would be two more Linesman/women - you’d have two points of view for offsides and an extra pair of eyes to check for encroachment on penalties ...

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1 hour ago, Making Plans said:

The bottom line is that the technology is not good enough to give these mm decisions.

Yes that is absolutely true. There is a graphic I will look for but TV cameras are video not stills and so not particularly high resolution, plus they only capture images for about 1/100th of a second every 1/50th of a second. So half of the action is “missing”, the other half of the action is blurred together. Add camera angles not being parallel to the pitch and you cannot resolve issues with an accuracy much better than about a foot. So the best VAR answer should be “not proven” i.e. the referees and assistants on the field usually get these things right, so just help them if they get it wrong, but don’t be an **** with technology showing you what you think is true when it might not be, as TV systems aren’t designed to do the job they are asking it to do. They’d need more cameras, with higher frame rates and higher resolution - all of which do exist and could be easily applied to the problem. But we are stuck in the equivalent of the “security theater” loop at airports, the game is to be seen to do “something” to “improve” the game rather than solving a real problem - which was what? 

All the players are wearing performance vests too, so real time tracking of the positional sensors the players are wearing would be another solution to detecting offsides rather than this peek from the stands rubbish. 

VAR.jpg

Edited by Surfer

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3 hours ago, Making Plans said:

They're just making the rules up as they go along. Farcical

That is the key point, they really are making it up as they go along but they are remarkably consistent in the decisions favouring the big teams.

Seems to me there are two slightly different scenarios which in both cases result in the above. Firstly you have the offsides which as Gary Lineker quite rightly said last night should be cut and dried, and instantly recognisable from the replay but as yesterday demonstrated are being massaged and manipulated to give what is claimed to be a definitive decision by a margin which is far smaller than the margin of error produced by the technology, or in the short version - completely wrong and a total misrepresentation of what the technology actually says.

Secondly we have a number of other issues, encroachment at penalties, handballs, some of the fouls/dives where the decision is literally made up and varies from week to week in identical situations but involving different teams and different VAR officials.

I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong here - my memory doesn't seem to be improving!) that the two original and major objections to VAR being introduced were that it would remove crucial decsions from the match referee and it would disrupt the flow of the game too much. Well the first implementations of VAR attempted to address those those issues with IMO a reasonable degree of success.

But with the EPL's implementation of VAR we have extremely lengthy, and often totally unnecessary interruptions to the game, frequent wrong decisions given by a VAR judge remote from the game and totally overridding the match official whose control (and decisions) are totally ignored. Its an utter disgrace which is rapidly killing the game - VAR itself (in the UK at least) is already discredited way beyond any chance of it becoming acceptable to the fans and if it is not very quickly dropped will impact severely on the popularity of football generally.

The only positive thing I can see, and I say this as someone who at the start of the thought that VAR was going to be a good thing this season, is this must surely make it impossible for VAR to spread to the Championship - yet another reason to look forward to Championship football again next season.  😀

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