One of the most profoundly depressing/frustrating seasons ever

[Jim Smith 2,314]

12 hours ago, Indy said:

As I posted to JS, please tell us who these players we should have signed for a few million?

I don’t like it, I’d rather a billionaire who funds our run to a cup final, but we don’t have that, we won’t have that and why should they just walk away? They’ve been here 20 odd years now, have said what will be and that’s life.

So under this where are the players we should have bought for a few million who are better standard than we have? Do you not think Byram was a bargain? Pukki? Well by that standard I think the coaches and scouts have probably looked to our budget and decided that there isn’t anything we can afford better than we have!

This summer might be totally different, remember we’ve only just got shot of a few players who were on our wages probably taking more than a million a year for no contribution.

We don’t have it because they won’t sell or even entertain it. If it was publicised they club was available for a reasonable price then there would be buyers. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

10 hours ago, Surfer said:

What is our true potential? 

Fact is three teams will be relegated from the PL this year, just like very year. One likely candidate may have gone through three managers this season alone, one likely candidate has spent over 100 million on players since getting promotion a distant third behind us. 

The club has tried the model of throwing money at January sales to buy survival, the key question is are we seen as a strong enough team at the start of the Summer transfer window for players who could genuinely help us improve to want to come here? We haven't landed one of those yet. 

 

10 hours ago, Surfer said:

What is our true potential? 

Fact is three teams will be relegated from the PL this year, just like very year. One likely candidate may have gone through three managers this season alone, one likely candidate has spent over 100 million on players since getting promotion a distant third behind us. 

The club has tried the model of throwing money at January sales to buy survival, the key question is are we seen as a strong enough team at the start of the Summer transfer window for players who could genuinely help us improve to want to come here? We haven't landed one of those yet. 

No they haven’t. Naismith and Klose (after we didn’t do what we needed to in the summer again) was not anything more than moderate spending by premier league standards and Naismith was just terrible scouting to be honest. It’s not evidence that signing players doesn’t or never works. 

[Indy 3,286]

4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

 

No they haven’t. Naismith and Klose (after we didn’t do what we needed to in the summer again) was not anything more than moderate spending by premier league standards and Naismith was just terrible scouting to be honest. It’s not evidence that signing players doesn’t or never works. 

You do realise that both Naismith and Klose have cost the cub upwards of 20 million pounds, with all transfer fees, wages and other payments, for very limited return to that investment! Now if you think that’s moderate spending then I’m astounded!

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

14 hours ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Be careful Jim - the happy clappers will soon be here.

I was going to ask if you were Jobbo or Benny Till in disguise until I read your ' I'm on a wind up' post. Apologies for being sucked in. I should know better.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

1. Name one club that has not spent a penny or very little and stayed up in their first season? 

2. Delia and co now being hailed for this long term plan, who is now responsible for the other three relegations?

3. Why is it Sheffield United can spend £42m wisely and strengthen yet we can not.

4. Because other teams spend badly why is it out magnificent Webber would or is it that you do not trust him?

5. Top 26? Really. . C'mon...

I just find it all so predictable and boring. Results business and we are failing in front of the world again.

[lake district canary 4,531]

14 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I just want the season over with

Wow. It is intensely frustrating at the moment, but the upside is the quality of football we are producing and the tantalising prospect that we could start the getting results our overall play deserves. There is always another game round the corner and the prospect of producing another fine display - with hopefully a bit more luck in front of goal.  

 

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

The model is the model out of necessity, because we have dirt-poor owners. The only way the model will change in the foreseeable future is if the owners change. Jim Smith will gladly explain how likely he thinks that is...🤓

There was never going to be a wholesale shake-up of the first-team squad last summer. Not just because of the lack of cash but because it was impossible to know who and how many of the squad would not make the step up, given what a jump in quality this was given their previous levels.

I only half-joked before the season started that if the other 19 managers didn't realise Stiepermann was the most one-footed player in the history of the game we would win the league, and if they did then we would get relegated. And he is not the only one of last season's stand-out performers who has found it very hard to make the step up. We were not in a position to assume the worst about so many players and replace them.

Plus we also needed to shop for the future. We actually signed nine players in the summer, but only two of them, Drmic and Byram, were for the first-team squad. As were the loanees, Fahrmann, Roberts and Amadou. A justified criticism would be that we placed too much faith in two players, Drmic and Klose, with bad injury records.

Could we have spent some more without endangering the model? Possibly. We did try to splash out €15m late on. It would have had to have been players we were certain would be an improvement who would not want the earth in wages and would be willing to take a relegation pay-cut. Only Webber would know if there were such available.

A final point. Amid all the talk before and at the AGM about possible stadium expansion, what seemed to get missed was Ben Kensell stressing that upgrading Colney, presumably at some considerable expense, was still the priority, ahead of any extra capacity at Carrow Road.

[Monty13 2,229]

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

Could we have spent some more without endangering the model? Possibly. We did try to splash out €15m late on. It would have had to have been players we were certain would be an improvement who would not want the earth in wages and would be willing to take a relegation pay-cut. Only Webber would know if there were such available.

I’ll be honest Purple that’s my only criticism of “the model”. Young talented players are assets, so are proven championship players. They aren’t money thrown away and are relatively risk free investments.

We could have spent a decent sum 10-20 million on new players who met the above criteria with very little risk to the club.

We must have spent 5 million or more on the loans of Amadou, Fahrmann and Roberts. What was the point in that outlay considering otherwise we set the team up with little chance of survival?

If we had spent that money and more on NCFC players that improved the squad I’d be less irritated by our current situation personally.

 

[ROBFLECK 132]

I agree with OP

[kick it off 1,948]

Totally agree with the OP - but I expected this from Day one so have been pretty chilled about the whole season to be honest - I don't feel like this team deserves to be worse off than some of our previous teams, but I also think that given we have such a young and inexperienced team, it was kind of inevitable.

I have absolutely no qualms about relegation. Can't bloody wait for it in fact. 

Yes we'll lose some - Godfrey, Aarons would be prime candidates. But Byram is already in house to replace Aarons and Byram and Lewis is as good a full bakk pairing as you'll find in the Champs. Klose also likely to stay, so we'd need another in but not necessarily a first choice to replace Godfrey but a squad player, and there's a few U23s who will be eyeing up that vacancy so we may not have to look elsewhere.

We may lose Emi, and he will need replacing, but I have faith Webber has already got candidates in mind for that, and we've got a couple of promising kids waiting in the wings. May lose Cantwell too but we already have a dominant winger at Championship level in Onel.

Pukki I think will stay. He's a hero of the Finnish team, so no danger of losing his international place and I get the impression he likes it in the fine city. He's a hero here too. Swap that to sit on the bench at Villa or somewhere? Doubtful in my book.

Like it or not, we're in brilliant shape to go back down and have a tilt at the title again. A few key additions and we may well be in position to come back up and stay up.

Edited December 27, 2019 by kick it off

[Carn 71]

This season should never have even happened. You'd do well to remember that when you're all crying about how we're going down again. Look at our ****ing squad, look where they came from. We've got academy players, players from German league 4, players we signed on free transfers. We shouldn't be anywhere near the Premier League, yet here we are and we're not completely out of it despite how bleak it looks. Even if we go down, what this manager has achieved with peanuts cannot be overstated. Would you rather be a club that spends 15 years in the Championship?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Carn

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

17 minutes ago, Carn said:

This season should never have even happened. You'd do well to remember that when you're all crying about how we're going down again. Look at our ****ing squad, look where they came from. We've got academy players, players from German league 4, players we signed on free transfers. We shouldn't be anywhere near the Premier League, yet here we are and we're not completely out of it despite how bleak it looks. Even if we go down, what this manager has achieved with peanuts cannot be overstated. Would you rather be a club that spends 15 years in the Championship?

I like you. You should post more often.

[Monty13 2,229]

14 hours ago, Indy said:

As I posted to JS, please tell us who these players we should have signed for a few million?

I don’t like it, I’d rather a billionaire who funds our run to a cup final, but we don’t have that, we won’t have that and why should they just walk away? They’ve been here 20 odd years now, have said what will be and that’s life.

So under this where are the players we should have bought for a few million who are better standard than we have? Do you not think Byram was a bargain? Pukki? Well by that standard I think the coaches and scouts have probably looked to our budget and decided that there isn’t anything we can afford better than we have!

This summer might be totally different, remember we’ve only just got shot of a few players who were on our wages probably taking more than a million a year for no contribution.

Indy it’s not a fair argument to just say “tell me who we should have signed?”

No one on this message board (as far as I’m aware) runs a team of full time internationally covering scouts.

It’s Webber’s teams job to find these players and they either failed or weren’t given the funds.

We arguably had a much better summer when preparing for the Championship last year, we’ve had arguably one successful first team signing this year in Byram and he cost virtually nothing.

I don’t for a second believe there weren’t players out there in our price range that could have improved this squad and given options.

15-20 million spent correctly in the summer would not have bankrupted the club but it might have given us half a chance of surviving, certainly more than the business we did.

The last time we successfully retained our PL status we raided the lower leagues for the best talent and we had a good championship squad when we finally got relegated and saleable assets from that business.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Monty13

[hogesar 9,618]

21 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I like you. You should post more often.

Seconded.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

This season should never have happened... we are were we are because our owners are dirt poor? Again why are we air brushing out the previous years under this ownership? Its like they took over 2 years ago... So, the argument is that better Delia than nasty bad owners ignoring the owners that have improved Leicester, Wolves, Burnley, Bournemouth etc.

It seems to me that their are two camps (I wish both well be the way, we are both City supporters) 

1. Those not willing to have any other owners than the current custodians and are quite happy this means that we will not compete at the highest level. They are also happy with the lack of team investment and believe there is this 5 year plan (when did it start? Is it just not another management structure brought about by necessity?). They are also accepting of the fact we will sell our best players every year just to maintain the status quo. Its a very Conservative approach and I would love to be able just to accept second best

2. Then there are those that think the owners have done a great job in stabilising the club but have reached their ceiling in terms of what they can achieve. We also believe that we are a very attractive proposition to a new owner given we have no debt, own our ground etc. All it would take is the current owners to be realistic in their acceptance of offers, which given their stated aim of only being there for the interest of the club... we also believe that given clubs like Bournemouth, Leicester, Wolves etc found good owners with backing, its likely we would find one if the current board where truly interested. We hate losing and think second best is selling short the great City that is Norwich.

Oh well... its all a bit like Brexit is it not. 

Happy New Year to you all... even Lakey 🎅

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

3 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

This season should never have happened... we are were we are because our owners are dirt poor? Again why are we air brushing out the previous years under this ownership? Its like they took over 2 years ago... So, the argument is that better Delia than nasty bad owners ignoring the owners that have improved Leicester, Wolves, Burnley, Bournemouth etc.

It seems to me that their are two camps (I wish both well be the way, we are both City supporters) 

1. Those not willing to have any other owners than the current custodians and are quite happy this means that we will not compete at the highest level. They are also happy with the lack of team investment and believe there is this 5 year plan (when did it start? Is it just not another management structure brought about by necessity?). They are also accepting of the fact we will sell our best players every year just to maintain the status quo. Its a very Conservative approach and I would love to be able just to accept second best

2. Then there are those that think the owners have done a great job in stabilising the club but have reached their ceiling in terms of what they can achieve. We also believe that we are a very attractive proposition to a new owner given we have no debt, own our ground etc. All it would take is the current owners to be realistic in their acceptance of offers, which given their stated aim of only being there for the interest of the club... we also believe that given clubs like Bournemouth, Leicester, Wolves etc found good owners with backing, its likely we would find one if the current board where truly interested. We hate losing and think second best is selling short the great City that is Norwich.

Oh well... its all a bit like Brexit is it not. 

Happy New Year to you all... even Lakey 🎅

I think there's been a lot of good debate on here in the last couple of days, and a lot of examples of people with very differing opinions having a really fair exchange of opinions. Long may it continue.

As to this post, I'd make a few points in reply:

1) I'm not oblivious to the other 20+ years of D&M's ownership. They have never been rich owners in the grand scheme of things, but they are getting poorer all the time in comparison with the obscene amounts of money being pumped into the game. Considering they are financially weaker now than they have ever been, what they have overseen in the last two years has been fantastic. I know Webber and Farke must take the overall credit for the results on the pitch, but we have to be wary of going down the "Delia's fault when we're doing badly, manager's credit when we're doing well" syndrome. If they were to step down tomorrow, they will be leaving the club in a healthier position than they inherited it in, which is all the more laudable given their lack of financial clout.

2) I think it's totally fair comment that we're around the ceiling of what we can achieve under this ownership. The model could work like a charm for another couple of years; we might come straight back up with an even stronger squad, and survive the season after next. But an awful lot of stars would need to align for that to happen, and every subsequent season we survived would be an even greater miracle.

3) Whether D&M would be 'truly interested' in selling to the 'right' bidder is a very open and subjective question. In their last interview, they said that the executive committee (Webber, Ward, Kensell) was in charge of potential investment, and presenting any suitable investment offers to them. We simply don't know how serious they are or are not about finding such an investment. However, one thing to bear in mind is that football clubs are not 'an investment'; they don't make you any money. Just ask D&M themselves. Therefore, the best chance of actually making a return on a football club (or, at least, limiting the amount of money you pour into a black hole in exchange for the exposure of running a football club) is to purchase it at its weakest and build it up to its optimum performance. As we've said already, we're already pretty close to our zenith; the club is self-sufficient, well-balanced, financially futureproofed and has loyal support and a full stadium every week. To a potential investor, that doesn't sound like an ideal opportunity to play 'knight in shining armour', but more like an opportunity to p*ss away megabucks simply to cement us as 'one of the 14' every season.

[kick it off 1,948]

27 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

This season should never have happened... we are were we are because our owners are dirt poor? Again why are we air brushing out the previous years under this ownership? Its like they took over 2 years ago... So, the argument is that better Delia than nasty bad owners ignoring the owners that have improved Leicester, Wolves, Burnley, Bournemouth etc.

It seems to me that their are two camps (I wish both well be the way, we are both City supporters) 

1. Those not willing to have any other owners than the current custodians and are quite happy this means that we will not compete at the highest level. They are also happy with the lack of team investment and believe there is this 5 year plan (when did it start? Is it just not another management structure brought about by necessity?). They are also accepting of the fact we will sell our best players every year just to maintain the status quo. Its a very Conservative approach and I would love to be able just to accept second best

2. Then there are those that think the owners have done a great job in stabilising the club but have reached their ceiling in terms of what they can achieve. We also believe that we are a very attractive proposition to a new owner given we have no debt, own our ground etc. All it would take is the current owners to be realistic in their acceptance of offers, which given their stated aim of only being there for the interest of the club... we also believe that given clubs like Bournemouth, Leicester, Wolves etc found good owners with backing, its likely we would find one if the current board where truly interested. We hate losing and think second best is selling short the great City that is Norwich.

Oh well... its all a bit like Brexit is it not. 

Happy New Year to you all... even Lakey 🎅

It seems to me that there is a third camp here and maybe it's not as black and white as you paint it.

I like Delia and Michael. I respect everything they've done for the club. I appreciate they have probably reached their ceiling but also understand that I don't want them to sell to just anybody. It needs to be decent owners like the list you mention though as there are plenty of not so decent ones too. Some of us understand that whilst we need the backing if we're to ever compete in the Prem, there are an awful lot of clubs that have been taken over by rich backers and then gone bust..... I don't want Delia and Michael in charge forever, but I also don't want to get sold to the next Marcus Evans arms dealer type. If that means accepting the current plan, and making sure the future of the club is financially secure so we can get the right owner in future and don't end up like Portsmouth, instead of just wanting us sold to the highest bidder even if it's a total lunatic like Tony Xia or a scumbag like Mike Ashley, then some of us are happy to accept that it is for the greater good.

Edited December 27, 2019 by kick it off

[Peanuts 150]

The fantastic PR job Webber has done and the massive over-achievement of last season have perhaps masked the fact that the club has gone backwards in terms of squad quality and financial might. You can argue about whether this is due to Delia's penny pinching or "sins of the past" but it's undeniable that we haven't spent as much money and the quality of our squad is poorer overall than in previous promotions (take Tettey for example, at 34, twice relegated and even with his dodgy knees he's still one of our best players).

The plan was always to build from the ground up with lower league gems, misfits and youth players, developing them to have an impact for us before moving them on for a profit, rinsing and repeating, hopefully building the quality of the squad up over a couple of seasons in order to secure promotion and then strengthen again to compete in the premier league.

The achievement of last season can't be overstated and not just because we'd found gems like Pukki and Buendia, but the squad were so much more than the sum of their parts. Last season too we were competing with clubs with rich owners who'd spent millions on proven players and yet our rag tag bunch of free transfers, misfits and youth players won the Championship convincingly playing some really beautiful football.

The minute we secured promotion Webber was out doing the rounds with the media lowering expectations ("lowest budget in the league") and I am sure that whilst everyone would love us to stay up he and the board were fully expecting us to come straight down. Whether that's a lack of ambition or financial necessity, again people can argue about.

Personally I'm somewhere in the middle. I support the model and recognise that given the reality of our financial situation it's a necessity. It's also nothing new either, we've always been a selling club the difference is now we are putting more resources into developing talent and committing to giving young players more opportunity in the first team. That said, if we go down this season it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether there was a failure of recruitment in the Summer given that clearly more money was available (eg. £15m for the French guy).

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

It seems to me that there is a third camp here and maybe it's not as black and white as you paint it.

I like Delia and Michael. I respect everything they've done for the club. I appreciate they have probably reached their ceiling but also understand that I don't want them to sell to just anybody. It needs to be decent owners like the list you mention though as there are plenty of not so decent ones too. Some of us understand that whilst we need the backing if we're to ever compete in the Prem, there are an awful lot of clubs that have been taken over by rich backers and then gone bust..... I don't want Delia and Michael in charge forever, but I also don't want to get sold to the next Marcus Evans arms dealer type. If that means accepting the current plan, and making sure the future of the club is financially secure so we can get the right owner in future and don't end up like Portsmouth, instead of just wanting us sold to the highest bidder even if it's a total lunatic like Tony Xia or a scumbag like Mike Ashley, then some of us are happy to accept that it is for the greater good.

Run out of reactions for today, so I will have to say 'great post' using actual words.

Great post.

[nutty nigel 7,513]

I have no sympathy for the OP. If we were where Liverpool are he would still post threads about how the wicked club do him down. Did this stop last season? Did it heck! It's just the complaints changed tack. And at the start of this season, instead of looking forward to the games he was posting about how the wicked club were preventing him from getting the tickets he deserved more than anyone else.

Jimbo depresses and frustrates me more than any other poster. I still love him though. But then I enjoyed Victor Meldrew🙃

[Il Pirata 249]

On 26/12/2019 at 20:32, Jim Smith said:

And I fear under this model it won’t ever change for us at this level. It will not enable us to compete consistently in the absence of a lot of luck, momentum and great coaching and this season we have had very little of any of those. Ultimately the lack of ambition/desire flows from the top and is our main weakness but my g*d we’ve not had any breaks this season either (even today Chelsea roll over for Saints after doing the same for Bournemouth). The injuries have been awful as well and Farke has been disappointing. I don’t think he fully grasped how important games against relegation rivals really are and I don’t think he knows how to sh*thouse a win in them. I don’t want him out (we are generally playing well) but I don’t think he’s earnt us any underserved points this season through great subs, tactical changes or being well drilled. 
 

I can’t remember a single point that we got this season that we didn’t deserve and we have left so many out there. We don’t score from set pieces, we concede loads of soft goals from crosses and set plays and we gift teams points they don’t deserve and without them really having earnt them. We seem to have to work so hard for any points unlike some of our rivals. Giving that utterly sh*t Villa side 6 points this season is an utter embarrassment (how we lost today is beyond me) but we should and could also have beaten Wolves and Shef U and the capitulations to Burnley, Palace, Villa abs Watford with just a meek shrug of the shoulders were not acceptable.

i just want the season over with but it’s going to be heart breaking to see this talented side wasted/broken up and another great opportunity tossed away. We had the basis of a very good side when we went up, we still look very close to being one. It’s really demoralising time see it being chucked away but ultimately the owners don’t want it enough. 

Yep, It's a travesty really. 

I'm going to put this out there and suggest Farke should be under a bit of pressure. He's far from blameless in this. I'm a little irritated by the notion he's been 'thrown under the bus' by the board. 

He's demonstrated tactical naivety (or stubbornness?) on many occasions recently. His delay in making substitutions  is absolutely baffling and incredibly frustrating. 

Another huge frustration for me is Farke's inability to utilise the varied talent in the squad available to him, and pick his best team for the opponent. Leitner, Vrancic and Hernandez absolutely should be in the starting eleven more often than they currently are. Villa away was perfect for Vrancic and Hernandez, and they should've played ahead of Cantwell and Trybull IMO. Both played fantastically well there at the end of last season. I think the two Villa loses make for good evidence our current starting eleven is weaker than the championship one last year. And Farke cannot blame injuries anymore, can he?

Why hasn't Vrancic started since Sheff Utd? Why is that a game for Vrancic, but Wolves and Villa aren't? He isn't going to get match fit getting four touches at the end of a game, is he?! And we need a player of his quality, ditto Hernandez. 

Cantwell, Mclean and Trybull are decent players. But guaranteed week in, week out starters, when we have talent such as the players mentioned above? I'm not comfortable with that. 

I'm sorry, but my faith in Farke is being tested. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Il Pirata

[Hardhouse44 261]

1 hour ago, Il Pirata said:

Yep, It's a travesty really. 

I'm going to put this out there and suggest Farke should be under a bit of pressure. He's far from blameless in this. I'm a little irritated by the notion he's been 'thrown under the bus' by the board. 

He's demonstrated tactical naivety (or stubbornness?) on many occasions recently. His delay in making substitutions  is absolutely baffling and incredibly frustrating. 

Another huge frustration for me is Farke's inability to utilise the varied talent in the squad available to him, and pick his best team for the opponent. Leitner, Vrancic and Hernandez absolutely should be in the starting eleven more often than they currently are. Villa away was perfect for Vrancic and Hernandez, and they should've played ahead of Cantwell and Trybull IMO. Both played fantastically well there at the end of last season. I think the two Villa loses make for good evidence our current starting eleven is weaker than the championship one last year. And Farke cannot blame injuries anymore, can he?

Why hasn't Vrancic started since Sheff Utd? Why is that a game for Vrancic, but Wolves and Villa aren't? He isn't going to get match fit getting four touches at the end of a game, is he?! And we need a player of his quality, ditto Hernandez. 

Cantwell, Mclean and Trybull are decent players. But guaranteed week in, week out starters, when we have talent such as the players mentioned above? I'm not comfortable with that. 

I'm sorry, but my faith in Farke is being tested. 

 

 

How dare you question our Lord and at this time of year as well.

But this is the thing. Too many fans fail to question anybody at the club. Nobody is discrediting what he has achieved. In fact many, like this Lakey character even went further to strongly championing that he would achieve similar success this season at the start of the campaign. Even going as far as to suggest nothing was impossible. What he and his like minded crew won’t do is apportion any blame on the guy now it clear that in fact he won’t be achieving anything but relegation with a whimper. 
 

We currently play tippy tappy football for tippy tappy footballs sake. Without end product it’s pointless. Its the football equivalent of a **** tease! I guess thats all some people need to get off!
 

Who’s not keeping it real!

[Monty13 2,229]

2 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

Yep, It's a travesty really. 

I'm going to put this out there and suggest Farke should be under a bit of pressure. He's far from blameless in this. I'm a little irritated by the notion he's been 'thrown under the bus' by the board. 

He's demonstrated tactical naivety (or stubbornness?) on many occasions recently. His delay in making substitutions  is absolutely baffling and incredibly frustrating. 

Another huge frustration for me is Farke's inability to utilise the varied talent in the squad available to him, and pick his best team for the opponent. Leitner, Vrancic and Hernandez absolutely should be in the starting eleven more often than they currently are. Villa away was perfect for Vrancic and Hernandez, and they should've played ahead of Cantwell and Trybull IMO. Both played fantastically well there at the end of last season. I think the two Villa loses make for good evidence our current starting eleven is weaker than the championship one last year. And Farke cannot blame injuries anymore, can he?

Why hasn't Vrancic started since Sheff Utd? Why is that a game for Vrancic, but Wolves and Villa aren't? He isn't going to get match fit getting four touches at the end of a game, is he?! And we need a player of his quality, ditto Hernandez. 

Cantwell, Mclean and Trybull are decent players. But guaranteed week in, week out starters, when we have talent such as the players mentioned above? I'm not comfortable with that. 

I'm sorry, but my faith in Farke is being tested. 

 

 

I kind of see your point but I think a lot of the faith in Farke comes from the fact he can only work with what he’s got.

I just posted about the team for Spurs and I struggle to justify changing the 11. IMHO he’s getting the best out of the squad, the performances prove that to me even if results haven’t come.

Who knows what’s happened with Leitner, clearly something is going on as otherwise I agree he offers something at this level.

Vrancic is harder, if you play him in the central two you lose the solidity a Trybul brings and has arguably lead to better attacking team play. Has he ever looked comfortable in the number 10 or on either flank? I’m not sure how he’s accommodated, he doesn’t have the heading ability or strength of McLean in that 10 role for me.

Stiepermann looks utterly devoid of confidence and a shadow of his former self.

Roberts is AWOL for reasons unknown.

Hernandez and Cantwell both offer something and give Farke his only real selection headache IMO.

Thats the issue for me, this team bar some minor tinkering in midfield pretty much picks itself.

Maybe Farke could have done better at times but he doesn’t have much to work with from what I can see.

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

Too many fans have a different opinion than me too...

How dare they!

[Cantiaci Canary 556]

Fascinating debate folks with plenty of intelligent contributions. 👏

I'm certainly in the 'we over achieved last season and shouldn't be surprised that our moneyball squad isn't quite good enough' camp BUT ...

After the genius recruitment of Krul, Zimbo, Trybull, Leitner, Vrancic, McClean, Steipermann, Hernandez, Buendia and Pukki on a shoestring I really expected that there would be a new gush of excellent incomers that Farke/Webber had been outpriced by in their previous searches abroad but were now affordable or could be seduced by Premier League footy.

It's a shame that that didn't happen ... but maybe there'll be a rabbit or two out of the hat in January.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Cantiaci Canary

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6

11 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

Yep, It's a travesty really. 

I'm going to put this out there and suggest Farke should be under a bit of pressure. He's far from blameless in this. I'm a little irritated by the notion he's been 'thrown under the bus' by the board. 

He's demonstrated tactical naivety (or stubbornness?) on many occasions recently. His delay in making substitutions  is absolutely baffling and incredibly frustrating. 

Another huge frustration for me is Farke's inability to utilise the varied talent in the squad available to him, and pick his best team for the opponent. Leitner, Vrancic and Hernandez absolutely should be in the starting eleven more often than they currently are. Villa away was perfect for Vrancic and Hernandez, and they should've played ahead of Cantwell and Trybull IMO. Both played fantastically well there at the end of last season. I think the two Villa loses make for good evidence our current starting eleven is weaker than the championship one last year. And Farke cannot blame injuries anymore, can he?

Why hasn't Vrancic started since Sheff Utd? Why is that a game for Vrancic, but Wolves and Villa aren't? He isn't going to get match fit getting four touches at the end of a game, is he?! And we need a player of his quality, ditto Hernandez. 

Cantwell, Mclean and Trybull are decent players. But guaranteed week in, week out starters, when we have talent such as the players mentioned above? I'm not comfortable with that. 

I'm sorry, but my faith in Farke is being tested. 

A few thoughts:

1) By whom do you think Farke should be put under more pressure? Do you mean the board? Or fans on here? Or fans showing vocal displeasure on matchdays?

2) I agree Vrancic should be getting more opportunities, but I don't think there's any way we should be playing Leitner and Vrancic in the same team. Leitner had a fair crack of the whip, and in my opinion he looked really poor. Hernandez deserves more starts, but the three of Emi/Kenny/Todd are performing really well individually and collectively at the moment. Sooner or later he'll get a start (maybe even today), and if he takes the opportunity then Farke will stick with him.

3) Cantwell has shown himself to be more than a 'decent' player. He's been brilliant this season, and his game is on a very sharp upward curve. He's been getting praise from all quarters, and deservedly so. Kenny too has been much better in the 10 role than Stiepermann and has been performing really well recently. Trybull I agree is 'decent', and personally I'd prefer Vrancic in that role.

4) The late substitutions thing is baffling to me too. He only makes them earlier than 80 minutes when we're losing, without fail. Players need longer than that to get up to match speed, and it frustrates the hell out of me when the opposition makes game-changing subs after an hour and we do nothing and concede the momentum. There must be some kind of logic behind his reasoning, but I can't see it.

[Il Pirata 249]

30 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

A few thoughts:

1) By whom do you think Farke should be put under more pressure? Do you mean the board? Or fans on here? Or fans showing vocal displeasure on matchdays?

2) I agree Vrancic should be getting more opportunities, but I don't think there's any way we should be playing Leitner and Vrancic in the same team. Leitner had a fair crack of the whip, and in my opinion he looked really poor. Hernandez deserves more starts, but the three of Emi/Kenny/Todd are performing really well individually and collectively at the moment. Sooner or later he'll get a start (maybe even today), and if he takes the opportunity then Farke will stick with him.

3) Cantwell has shown himself to be more than a 'decent' player. He's been brilliant this season, and his game is on a very sharp upward curve. He's been getting praise from all quarters, and deservedly so. Kenny too has been much better in the 10 role than Stiepermann and has been performing really well recently. Trybull I agree is 'decent', and personally I'd prefer Vrancic in that role.

4) The late substitutions thing is baffling to me too. He only makes them earlier than 80 minutes when we're losing, without fail. Players need longer than that to get up to match speed, and it frustrates the hell out of me when the opposition makes game-changing subs after an hour and we do nothing and concede the momentum. There must be some kind of logic behind his reasoning, but I can't see it.

Hi FTW..

1. I think the majority of supporters have given Farke a free pass this season, myself included. However, since Everton we have lost four games by the odd goal, all of which (bar Soton) have been the result of Farke failing to deal with tactical / personal changes by the opposition, or just not simply getting in there first. We should have beaten Sheff Utd, Wolves and Villa and be nine points better off. I feel Farke has contributed hugely in not collecting these points. Therefore I feel the fans, and media, should be asking the question of Farke and challenging his decisions (or lack of). I'm certainly not suggesting vocal displeasure on matchdays though. That's the last thing we need at the minute. 

2. Yes Leitner and Vrancic in the same team may not work most of the time, although there are games I think they would. I'm not saying the trio should all start together, just that they should all be seeing more game time as part of a more dynamic squad policy. Leitner hasn't had a fair crack in his favoured position. I still refer back to the Newcastle game where he was superb. 

3. Hugely controversial, but I'm not convinced by Cantwell. IMO his goals and work rate have masked some pretty average performances. I've seen him at Bournemouth, Everton and Leicester and he was a weak link. He isn't effective enough, and I firmly believe we win more games and score more goals with Hernandez playing instead of him. I know I'll get criticised, but for me he's another Murphy rather than a Maddison, if you see what I mean. At home against teams who want to sit back, I can see an argument for his inclusion. But away from home when we need to counter attack with pace and have an outlet, he's largely ineffective.

4. I honestly can't fathom any logic. The opposition constantly makes changes first and refresh themselves against our weary players. It just feels as if we're deliberately playing at a disadvantage. 

 

I'm still fully behind Fake in the main. Largely due to the fact our performances have been decent of late and clearly the players are playing for him. But I'm incredibly frustrated, and could do with a shot of re-assurance. I want to see him utilise the squad more. Tactically, he's coming across very one dimensional. 

[hogesar 9,618]

10 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

 

3. Hugely controversial, but I'm not convinced by Cantwell. IMO his goals and work rate have masked some pretty average performances. I've seen him at Bournemouth, Everton and Leicester and he was a weak link. He isn't effective enough, and I firmly believe we win more games and score more goals with Hernandez playing instead of him. I know I'll get criticised, but for me he's another Murphy rather than a Maddison, if you see what I mean. At home against teams who want to sit back, I can see an argument for his inclusion. But away from home when we need to counter attack with pace and have an outlet, he's largely ineffective.

Sorry but I couldn't disagree more with this. Scoring and assisting goals at this level is one of the hardest things to do and Cantwell has done both in his first season at this level. Theres a reason hes hyped up now outside of Norfolk by the likes of MOTD.

To say hes largely ineffective is only fair if you credit Hernandez with exactly the same. He has often been ineffective and on top of that lacks the quality to deliver assists and lacks the finishing to deliver the goals that Cantwell has.

What I do agree with you on is obviously Hernandez offers raw pace and strength which CAN be effective and perhaps he should be on earlier in games we are chasing.

I didnt like Farkes three subs against Villa but equally can understand why he hadnt changed anything before their goal - we were playing well, defending well and creating chances.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

Wow, I’ve just read this thread and have many thoughts, but the one way out front is how many of the posters have the ability to see the future. If Farke had made earlier substitutions at Sheff Utd, Wolves and Villa, we would be nine points better off, if we’d spent £15 million more in the summer, we’d be out of the bottom three, if the club ownership changed, lots of money would be pumped in and we would be Leicester, if the club was advertised for sale, it would be sold, even Lakey’s there are more great results around the corner.

The beauty of football, which is exemplified by our recent history, is its unpredictability. Who expected our performance last season, or the results against Man City and Leicester? I love being a City supporter and a big part of that is what we’ve achieved against the odds. I’ve said before how my in-laws are from Liverpool and my biggest gripe with them is that they seem to be constantly whinging, nothing is good enough. I’m glad we’re not Man City, buying their success. To have that sense of entitlement and be  disappointed at the slightest reverse would not be for me. As a wise friend who had been through some awful personal recent experiences once said to me “you can’t have the highs without the lows”. 

I agree many results have been disappointing this season and I’m getting bored of saying to people “we deserved better”. But what makes us Norwich City is our budget, our owner, our history and our “model” of doing it the hard way. Own it, be proud of it, celebrate it!
 

 

(How’d I do Lakey?)

[JF 694]

10 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Wow, I’ve just read this thread and have many thoughts, but the one way out front is how many of the posters have the ability to see the future. If Farke had made earlier substitutions at Sheff Utd, Wolves and Villa, we would be nine points better off, if we’d spent £15 million more in the summer, we’d be out of the bottom three, if the club ownership changed, lots of money would be pumped in and we would be Leicester, if the club was advertised for sale, it would be sold, even Lakey’s there are more great results around the corner.

The beauty of football, which is exemplified by our recent history, is its unpredictability. Who expected our performance last season, or the results against Man City and Leicester? I love being a City supporter and a big part of that is what we’ve achieved against the odds. I’ve said before how my in-laws are from Liverpool and my biggest gripe with them is that they seem to be constantly whinging, nothing is good enough. I’m glad we’re not Man City, buying their success. To have that sense of entitlement and be  disappointed at the slightest reverse would not be for me. As a wise friend who had been through some awful personal recent experiences once said to me “you can’t have the highs without the lows”. 

I agree many results have been disappointing this season and I’m getting bored of saying to people “we deserved better”. But what makes us Norwich City is our budget, our owner, our history and our “model” of doing it the hard way. Own it, be proud of it, celebrate it!
 

 

(How’d I do Lakey?)

🤮🤮🤮🤮 

Only joking. Good post. I’d rather have our highs and lows of the last ten seasons than be a club like Everton that are just plodding along in the PL. Every season is the same, just there making up the numbers, no highs, no lows.