At least we will be a rich championship club

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

Just now, Feedthewolf said:

I think my posting style is generally pretty similar, and I don't mind calling out trolls and bullsh*tters for what they are. I just think at the moment, posters on here are generally pretty understanding of our plight, and there's been a lot of 'agreeing to disagree' on here. I think that's kind of appropriate for the way our club is at the moment.

Once the doom-mongers start coming out in force and pouring out endless vitriol on here, I'll roll my sleeves up and turn into a fully fledged KTF arsehole. Until then, I'll conserve my blood pressure and look for common ground rather than trench warfare.

Cant like anymore posts today so have a 👍

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Cant like anymore posts today so have a 👍

Me either. Have one of these: 🐐

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, Mello Yello said:

If you're Irish.....I'm a Geordie.....

Never said I was. But what gave it away, if in fact im not.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

Me either. Have one of these: 🐐

A sheep with a fire on its head, cheers.

[Mello Yello 2,273]

4 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Never said I was. But what gave it away, if in fact im not.

There are certain styles of writing and expressions on this forum - and the use of certain words an' stuff.....

 

I don't think you're the only one on here using a pseudonym......

 

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

2 hours ago, Cliff the Canary said:

The capital I’m referring to is ‘capital’ put into a company by its shareholders for further investment, specifically releasing cash for player investment.

Like any business you need to make capital investment to generate revenues, whether it’s machines in manufacturing or properties in property development projects as an example. Obviously there is always an associate maintenance cost (wages for players) and an inherent risk involved.

 Players registrations are an asset on the balance sheet (refer note 13 Intangible Assets) therefore are also capital in nature. From an accounting perspective they are never a liability, but on disposal can result in a loss on the statement of comprehensive income ‘SOCI’! (or if the self funding model works we hope to see plenty of ‘profits on disposable’ on the SOCI)

Agreed the players value is time limit which is why the cost of players circa £42m, is amortised circa £27m leaving a NBV of circa £14m (also refer note 13)

It could be argued that I know little about football and rightfully so, but as a qualified accountant I know a little on this subject.

 I agree the Jarvis and Naismith transfers were disastrous and bad capital investments, but the reaction to this to not invest at all is equally disastrous as we are now witnessing!

Its like a manufacturing company not investment in new technology to produce more sophisticated products, when all it’s competitors are, leaving it unable to compete!

Anyway just to be clear, I am not and have never advocated that the club under it’s current ownership and model go out and recklessly spend millions potentially risking the financial future of the club.

What I’m encouraging is a change of ownership where there is shareholder support which allows for capital expenditure to compete at the highest level, where there is enough capital reserves to suffer losses on bad investments (let’s remember folks we’re talking about Naismith and Jarvis here, not Ronaldo and Naymar on mega mega bucks), where a young progressive manager and sporting director are given the funds, tools and opportunity to fulfil their potential, is that too much to ask?

Yes it is whilst DS & MWJ maintain their tight stranglehold of the club !  

 

Some decent points. A few comments. You don't mention FFP, a serious consideration in football in terms of how much an investor can legally invest, which doesn't apply to 'normal' business. I think you understate the problems of having a wasting asset on the books, even if it isn't someone as expensive as Neymar or Ibrahimovic. Not only will that player's resale value decrease, sometimes in effect to zero, but you still have to pay them wages, so they become a negative, a drain on resources, while they take up a place in the squad you otherwise could fill with someone useful.

And there is the potential damaging effect on squad morale of a freeloader which is not the case with an outdated piece of machinery lying idle. It is possible the senior management at NCFC was so burned by the Naismith et al saga it has gone too far the other way, but better to be cautious than fall into the trap of repeating the mistake.

 

Football is also a much less predictable business than those that make white goods, or paperclips, which don't have the peril of relegation or the challenge of promotion. The latter can think longer-term. And their CEOs last longer. The average shelf-life of a UK CEO is just under five years, as against just over a year for a football manager,  and from memory less than that in the Championship. All of that makes financial planning easier in the 'normal' world as opposed to soccer, where one manager's dream player might be another's worst nightmare (of course exactly why we have switched to the sporting director model, so a chage of head coach doesn't involved a change of footballing philosophy).

Smith and Jones control the club because they spent money acquiring a majority stake. That is how it works. Granted the process of a hostile takeover of the unlisted NCFC is not as easy as with a listed company, but anyone with enough money and the right plan for the future of the club would be able to manage it.

[Big Vince 318]

21 hours ago, Since 1980 said:

I think we can do better than 18-26.

Indeed. Messrs Chase and Jones demonstrated it was possible to do a lot better than this.

The current board is just rabidly defeatist.

I cannot begin to define what the goal is for next season once relegation is confirmed for this one.

[Cliff the Canary 63]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

Some decent points. A few comments. You don't mention FFP, a serious consideration in football in terms of how much an investor can legally invest, which doesn't apply to 'normal' business. I think you understate the problems of having a wasting asset on the books, even if it isn't someone as expensive as Neymar or Ibrahimovic. Not only will that player's resale value decrease, sometimes in effect to zero, but you still have to pay them wages, so they become a negative, a drain on resources, while they take up a place in the squad you otherwise could fill with someone useful.

And there is the potential damaging effect on squad morale of a freeloader which is not the case with an outdated piece of machinery lying idle. It is possible the senior management at NCFC was so burned by the Naismith et al saga it has gone too far the other way, but better to be cautious than fall into the trap of repeating the mistake.

 

Football is also a much less predictable business than those that make white goods, or paperclips, which don't have the peril of relegation or the challenge of promotion. The latter can think longer-term. And their CEOs last longer. The average shelf-life of a UK CEO is just under five years, as against just over a year for a football manager,  and from memory less than that in the Championship. All of that makes financial planning easier in the 'normal' world as opposed to soccer, where one manager's dream player might be another's worst nightmare (of course exactly why we have switched to the sporting director model, so a chage of head coach doesn't involved a change of footballing philosophy).

Smith and Jones control the club because they spent money acquiring a majority stake. That is how it works. Granted the process of a hostile takeover of the unlisted NCFC is not as easy as with a listed company, but anyone with enough money and the right plan for the future of the club would be able to manage it.

Can’t argue with anything you’ve said Purple! Precise and articulate as ever!

I’m guilty of seeing everything through accountants eyes where everything is black and white and have neglected the ‘human factor’ as you pointed out with freeloaders having a negative effect on squad morale.

whether a player is successful or not the effects on the accounts are the same with wages hitting the income account and the net book value of the registration being amortised over the length of the contract! The hit comes in the resale value and the profit or loss on disposal! However as you’ve pointed out this doesn’t take into account the player taking up a squad place.

FFP has always confused me? How do teams like Crystal Palace, Bournemouth etc, with smaller grounds than Carrow Road manage this? Ticket revenue must be significantly lower so how are they able to balance the books and satisfy FFP without direct shareholders investment? I don’t know, but clearly there must be a way!

 I’ve followed Norwich since 1985 and been viewing this forum since the Lambert years.

Despite the ups and downs in that time I’ve never felt the inclination to post! However this year I really felt the club had done so much good work to get us here, yet they’ve not given it a go! I respect DS and MWJ and true fans who believe they are doing the best for the club, but football has moved on, like it or not, and their model of a self sustainable club is not compatible and unlikely to succeed in top flight football! That’s why I think the best gift they could give to club is to step aside and allow someone with the resources to take the club forward!

Now I know everyone will jump on me saying no rich investors are banging on the doors of Carrow Road, but that’s not how it works! The Club has to be aggressively pitched in the right circles to attract interest.

 I don’t think the current shareholders are interested in selling the club, yes they’d take investment that doesn’t dilute their holding, but that’s basically asking for a charity payment! If they were serious about selling can anyone explain the ridiculous succession plan of putting nephew tom in charge!   

[Badger 2,404]

3 hours ago, Cliff the Canary said:

The capital I’m referring to is ‘capital’ put into a company by its shareholders for further investment, specifically releasing cash for player investment.

We get back to the crux of the issue - you are looking for someone to come in an invest tens of millions in the club (Just to buy it) and then tens of millions more to buy players' registrations, that are not really as reliable as most forms of capital - as you say they are intangible assets, whose depreciation can be very rapid and highly unpredictable and not therefore an asset that you would wish to rely upon for your financial stability. They are also fixed term - like buying rights to use something for a number of years rather than really "owning it" outright. 

Like any business you need to make capital investment to generate revenues, whether it’s machines in manufacturing or properties in property development projects as an example. Obviously there is always an associate maintenance cost (wages for players) and an inherent risk involved.

Whilst there is volatility in the machine and particularly property prices, I think that you would agree that there is greater volatility in player registrations? Again, this is compounded by the short term nature of our ownership of the rights. If I owned a piece of land outright and the market collapsed, I have the option of "riding it out" and waiting for the market to recover. This is not an option I could be confident of if I only had a was a 3 year lease on the property -  as is the case with player registrations.

 Players registrations are an asset on the balance sheet (refer note 13 Intangible Assets) therefore are also capital in nature. From an accounting perspective they are never a liability, but on disposal can result in a loss on the statement of comprehensive income ‘SOCI’! (or if the self funding model works we hope to see plenty of ‘profits on disposable’ on the SOCI)

Agreed the players value is time limit which is why the cost of players circa £42m, is amortised circa £27m leaving a NBV of circa £14m (also refer note 13)

It could be argued that I know little about football and rightfully so, but as a qualified accountant I know a little on this subject.

 I agree the Jarvis and Naismith transfers were disastrous and bad capital investments, but the reaction to this to not invest at all is equally disastrous as we are now witnessing!

Nobody is suggesting not investing - we are suggesting investing with greater care. Last time we were promoted we paid over the odds for assets as gambled it would be better to take this risk. It didn't work and it nearly screwed us. 

Its like a manufacturing company not investment in new technology to produce more sophisticated products, when all it’s competitors are, leaving it unable to compete! Again, this analogy doesn't work because you are not "buying" a similar product. It is inherently more risky. One club could spend £20 million on a player and get a real dud: another could spend one million and get a gem. Generally a manufacturer knows what it is getting to a far greater extent than a football club. Additionally, if the new technology manufacturing equipment doesn't work, you can sue the person who provided it - there is not the same option with player registrations.

Anyway just to be clear, I am not and have never advocated that the club under it’s current ownership and model go out and recklessly spend millions potentially risking the financial future of the club.

What I’m encouraging is a change of ownership where there is shareholder support which allows for capital expenditure to compete at the highest level, where there is enough capital reserves to suffer losses on bad investments (let’s remember folks we’re talking about Naismith and Jarvis here, not Ronaldo and Naymar on mega mega bucks), where a young progressive manager and sporting director are given the funds, tools and opportunity to fulfil their potential, is that too much to ask?

What you want is what everybody wants - you want a one-way bet. You want someone to come in and sink tens of millions into the club, but then not try to recover it if things go wrong. It does happen, some clubs have had this sort of luck - Sunderland, for example. However, it is not something that you can rely on. Investors long-term aim is to take money out of the club, not put it in. You are really looking for someone to gamble that they can invest and make a profit - at which point they can take revenue from the club or, more likely imo  resell at a profit. Fair enough, but what you also want is for them not to try to recover their investment if things go wrong. This is the part that is potentially most worrying. Many such investors have plans to recover their investment if things go wrong - look at the number of clubs whose grounds are owned by different companies to the club. Being debt free + with our own training ground + stadium would make us highly vulnerable to an unscrupulous owner.

Yes it is whilst DS & MWJ maintain their tight stranglehold of the club !  It is probably too much to ask for because most peoples with tens of millions to invest want a return from their money and are prepared to sell assets to recover their initial investment if things go wrong. If you know of any billionaires, who would be prepared to fund a one-way bet, I'd be happy to support it - I'm just rather sceptical that such a person is easy to find. Many who write on threads such as these just seem to take it for granted that we would get great owners to replace DS and MWJ - I'm less confidant.

Thank you for your thought through reply. I disagree for the reasons that I state above in the text.

[old bill 0]

8 hours ago, Willmeister said:

This thread is ridiculous except for a couple of sane voices.

At the beginning of the season I was confident that this team had enough about them to survive and comfortably and actually thought we didn’t need to spend loads and that the strategy we were implementing was the correct one. I know that now looks unlikely, but I think a lot of that is down to misfortune with injuries and not getting results the performances deserves.

I still think the strategy was correct. Nearly every player signed a new deal, which would have given them bigger wages and I imagine hefty one off signing on fees. SW has alluded to this.

We also went out and bought some very exciting youngsters. Adshead was being chased by every club in the top 6 and Fitzpatrick is considered to be an outstanding talent. We have also tied down Famewo and Idah, both of whom I imagine will be playing a big part within the next 12 months.

I think we would have spent £10m odd if the right players were available, but there’s no point just spending it for the sake of it. That’s how we got stuck with Naismith. We were also rumoured to have had a £15m bid accepted on deadline day for the French winger whose name escapes me, but he turned us down.

The club have been open about the strategy and after last season SW and DF have my complete trust. They should have yours as well. This isn’t a short term project, it’s a long term project and even if it doesn’t work, we'll all still be Norwich fans, because if we wanted to watch a team win every week we would have gone and supported Man City or Liverpool by now. OTBC.

 

[Cliff the Canary 63]

Thank you for your thought through reply!

You’ve made some very good counter arguments, some which I take on board, some which I could retort but let’s just say we’ve reached an impasse! 

My signing off note is that, no I don’t expect a billionaire to pump endless funds in with no prospect of return ( although this is not uncommon in the EPL ,Bournemouth anyone??), but someone to invest in the short term to get the club established and then look for returns long term. When the Thai owners of Leicester first invested did they look for quick returns? Leicester I think area good comparison in terms of fan base, stadium size etc when they were brought by foreign investment, so why wouldn’t Norwich be attractive if marketed in the right circles!

Let’s just hope the self sustainable model works and we bounce back first time otherwise we face a bleak existence in the championship hoping the academy throws out a few gems to sell! 

One of us will be able to say I told you so!

Badger, enjoyed our dialogue, all the best

Edited December 27, 2019 by Cliff the Canary

[Cliff the Canary 63]

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

Thank you for your thought through reply. I disagree for the reasons that I state above in the text.

Had originally quoted in my post above, but didn’t work 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Cliff the Canary

[old bill 0]

The approach which got promotion was to score winning goals late in the game whlie conceding quite a few . This was never likely to work in the Premier League. There you need a defence which can stop opponents scoring - especially those who are likely relegation candidates.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

There are certain styles of writing and expressions on this forum - and the use of certain words an' stuff.....

 

I don't think you're the only one on here using a pseudonym......

 

If you mean that my real name isnt wcorkcanary , then you are correct, I have never posted under any other name if that's what you mean Yello(o).

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Can we keep the replies down to a line or two but no more. It's the xmas hols and I really can't  be arsed to read the essays, however well informed they can be.😉

[king canary 7,558]

Far too many good posts in this thread to go and quote them all, I’ll just say a couple of things...

1) There are posters who wouldn’t give Delia and Michael any credit if we did the treble, just as there are some who would reject any criticism of the owners if they doubled ticket prices and changed the stadium name to reflect the latest Delia cook book. Both groups are best ignored.

2) I think everyone believe due diligence should be done on any new owners. For me it goes without saying, nobody is really advocating selling to the first bidder no matter what.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

41 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Can we keep the replies down to a line or two but no more. It's the xmas hols and I really can't  be arsed to read the essays, however well informed they can be.😉

Nope. Not a chance.

[City 2nd 191]

13 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

We were still in the Premier League, debt-free, with tons of saleable assets last time I checked. Of course we're very likely to go down, but we'll be in a much, much better position than where we started. Just check the club's accounts for proof of that.

I'm also concerned about what might happen when Webber and/or Farke leave, but why worry about a future that hasn't happened yet? If we lost both of them at the same time I'd be concerned, but as long as there's a year or so of overlap to pass the philosophy on to the next owner, I think we'll continue to be in a relatively healthy position, even in the Championship. So many clubs in that division are flirting with financial ruin and FFP rules, and we'll be well-positioned to avoid that boom-and-bust mentality.

What is it about being debt free and having tons of saleable assets? What is it about accepting the fact that NCFC will be relegated? How will we be in a much better position than where we started? Where exactly was the starting point? Why is there a need to check the clubs accounts? We ALL know of the self- financing model that NCFC are following, don’t we! And why is there a need to pass the philosophy on to the next owner? Don’t we ALL know who that will be. Doesn’t he currently sit on the board, courtesy of his aunty owner? Indeed isn’t that exactly why the current model is being followed?

Isn’t football supposed to be a competitive game? Isn’t the idea that you strive to win every match. How many clubs in any division have gone to the wall because of the FFP rules! Have Liverpool? Have Man city? Have Leicester? 

Success on the pitch breeds success off it, look at the three examples above. One currently running away with the title. European champions. World club champions!  One at our level, and one a footballing powerhouse?  it simply all about keeping the club afloat or is it all about supporting a successful football club. Accepting failure is not a way forward? There are those on here who suggest the current owners have brought success to our club! Have they? Seeing “their” club get promotion and then relegated is success! Taking the club to a self financing model simply to retain family ownership is success? There has been some very very poor decisions made at NCFC none more so than now. So are we in a much better position? Are you happy to trot off to Carrow Road just to see a team who makes up the numbers? Because that is what you are advocating.

[Midlands Yellow 3,913]

12 hours ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Can we keep the replies down to a line or two but no more. It's the xmas hols and I really can't  be arsed to read the essays, however well informed they can be.😉

Parma will be giving his thoughts on the state of play in the coming days. I think it’s one you’ll enjoy most.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

22 hours ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

There is no guarantee that the stowmarket duo would spend the money wisely

what I would like to see is a fan on the board to hold them to account I would recommend the following as examples

Robin Sainty - heads up the canary trust. Knows nothing about football but would ensure the ground is well stocked with woman’s sanitary wears

LDC - would agree with everything that the board would say

Fenway Frank - again knows nothing about football but would ensure the shelves in the kiosks would be fully stocked

Jobsworth Canary - the only one I can see that would keep the boards feet to the floor and ensure they make the right decisions 

so I call on you all to support me becoming Independent director for ncfc 

You have my vote 

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

2 hours ago, City 2nd said:

What is it about being debt free and having tons of saleable assets? What is it about accepting the fact that NCFC will be relegated? How will we be in a much better position than where we started? Where exactly was the starting point? Why is there a need to check the clubs accounts? We ALL know of the self- financing model that NCFC are following, don’t we! And why is there a need to pass the philosophy on to the next owner? Don’t we ALL know who that will be. Doesn’t he currently sit on the board, courtesy of his aunty owner? Indeed isn’t that exactly why the current model is being followed?

Isn’t football supposed to be a competitive game? Isn’t the idea that you strive to win every match. How many clubs in any division have gone to the wall because of the FFP rules! Have Liverpool? Have Man city? Have Leicester? 

Success on the pitch breeds success off it, look at the three examples above. One currently running away with the title. European champions. World club champions!  One at our level, and one a footballing powerhouse?  it simply all about keeping the club afloat or is it all about supporting a successful football club. Accepting failure is not a way forward? There are those on here who suggest the current owners have brought success to our club! Have they? Seeing “their” club get promotion and then relegated is success! Taking the club to a self financing model simply to retain family ownership is success? There has been some very very poor decisions made at NCFC none more so than now. So are we in a much better position? Are you happy to trot off to Carrow Road just to see a team who makes up the numbers? Because that is what you are advocating.

Firstly, there was one point on which I was unclear; when I referred to the next 'owner', I meant the next owner of the footballing philosophy, ie. Webber/Farke. I just meant that when either Webber or Farke leave their post, it's vitally important that the other one stays for a year to ensure that the philosophy is continued and the good habits are passed on.

I'm not sure how you've reached the conclusion that I'm happy to see a team who 'makes up the numbers'. What I'm saying is that the model we are using now is the best model we could use considering our ownership status. It's sustainable, it's long-term, it isn't 'boom and bust'. I am prepared to accept relegation if it happens, because we've got a model that gives us a good chance of getting back up again. 

Comparisons to Liverpool and Manchester City are utterly pointless. If we were a club of that size and stature with our ownership model, I certainly wouldn't be happy. Leicester is - as pretty much everyone has agreed - the perfect example of big foreign investment done right. Wolves is another example. There must have been a hundred threads on here going round in circles about this point, with Wolves/Leicester/Bournemouth on the one hand, and Bolton/Coventry/Blackburn on the other. Some people are desperate to gamble with big investment, some people are vehemently against it, and a great deal more (including me) live in the middle ground.

All things are relative, and Delia and Michael have looked after this club for 23 years while the game has steadily become richer and richer, and they've become poorer and poorer. The club is in a better financial state now than it has been at any point in those 23 years, which is surely something they should be applauded for? Don't you think they've done a good job to get us to this point despite having nothing to actually invest?

One final point: at no point here have I said I am 'happy' to continue with this ownership model indefinitely. I am concerned about Tom Smith taking over the shareholding, as he has neither the experience nor the general goodwill to keep our fans on side. I would like to see fresh investment, and I'm sure that if we find ourselves marooned in the Championship (or worse) with Tom at the helm, the weight of public opinion will change very quickly.

EDIT: regarding the text in bold, the starting point was when Webber was appointed in 2017. And we'll be in a better position because we've entirely cleared the club's debts, have lots of talented youngsters with PL experience and a high market value, a flourishing Cat 1 Academy, and a recruitment team that's done better with signings than any other one in recent memory.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Feedthewolf

[City 2nd 191]

30 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Firstly, there was one point on which I was unclear; when I referred to the next 'owner', I meant the next owner of the footballing philosophy, ie. Webber/Farke. I just meant that when either Webber or Farke leave their post, it's vitally important that the other one stays for a year to ensure that the philosophy is continued and the good habits are passed on.

I'm not sure how you've reached the conclusion that I'm happy to see a team who 'makes up the numbers'. What I'm saying is that the model we are using now is the best model we could use considering our ownership status. It's sustainable, it's long-term, it isn't 'boom and bust'. I am prepared to accept relegation if it happens, because we've got a model that gives us a good chance of getting back up again. 

Comparisons to Liverpool and Manchester City are utterly pointless. If we were a club of that size and stature with our ownership model, I certainly wouldn't be happy. Leicester is - as pretty much everyone has agreed - the perfect example of big foreign investment done right. Wolves is another example. There must have been a hundred threads on here going round in circles about this point, with Wolves/Leicester/Bournemouth on the one hand, and Bolton/Coventry/Blackburn on the other. Some people are desperate to gamble with big investment, some people are vehemently against it, and a great deal more (including me) live in the middle ground.

All things are relative, and Delia and Michael have looked after this club for 23 years while the game has steadily become richer and richer, and they've become poorer and poorer. The club is in a better financial state now than it has been at any point in those 23 years, which is surely something they should be applauded for? Don't you think they've done a good job to get us to this point despite having nothing to actually invest?

One final point: at no point here have I said I am 'happy' to continue with this ownership model indefinitely. I am concerned about Tom Smith taking over the shareholding, as he has neither the experience nor the general goodwill to keep our fans on side. I would like to see fresh investment, and I'm sure that if we find ourselves marooned in the Championship (or worse) with Tom at the helm, the weight of public opinion will change very quickly.

EDIT: regarding the text in bold, the starting point was when Webber was appointed in 2017. And we'll be in a better position because we've entirely cleared the club's debts, have lots of talented youngsters with PL experience and a high market value, a flourishing Cat 1 Academy, and a recruitment team that's done better with signings than any other one in recent memory.

A point worth making. You refer to the fact there is no point in my making comparison to Liverpool/Man city! 

Well what about Arsenal? They introduced the self sustaining model long before NCFC did. Whilst they sold players, (good players) they also signed players, setting a new transfer record to boot, and they still built the emirates stadium, to increase capacity and swell income, which it did, remaining a top 10 side in the process. I have nothing against the model itself, but just how it is being utilised at CR. Personally I don’t think Webber is doing a good job at all, he has much to learn in respect of self sufficiency and as to where it takes our  club, which does not appear to me to be in an upward spiral at all, and we have owners to quote who “will be happy to see NCFC as a top 26 side!” You use the words we are using the best model available! Is it? Personally I do not think so.

as to your point on continuity re Farke/Webber. Is that likely? Any new director of football (whether if his selection  is overseen by Webber or not) is very likely to want to introduce his own ideas, particularly in respect of our being a yo yo club!

somewhere along the line something has to give, there is little point in promotion from the championship, only to be further relegated again.

its really good to read another perspective FtW, and I agree with much of what you say, and disagree in large parts too, but I hope beyond hope that we can stay up, and Webber and the Smiths can take us forward, but I sincerely do fear for the future. 

I wish you and your family a very happy and very prosperous new year.

[Badger 2,404]

16 hours ago, Cliff the Canary said:

Thank you for your thought through reply!

You’ve made some very good counter arguments, some which I take on board, some which I could retort but let’s just say we’ve reached an impasse! 

My signing off note is that, no I don’t expect a billionaire to pump endless funds in with no prospect of return ( although this is not uncommon in the EPL ,Bournemouth anyone??), but someone to invest in the short term to get the club established and then look for returns long term. When the Thai owners of Leicester first invested did they look for quick returns? Leicester I think area good comparison in terms of fan base, stadium size etc when they were brought by foreign investment, so why wouldn’t Norwich be attractive if marketed in the right circles!

Let’s just hope the self sustainable model works and we bounce back first time otherwise we face a bleak existence in the championship hoping the academy throws out a few gems to sell! 

One of us will be able to say I told you so!

Badger, enjoyed our dialogue, all the best

Yes thanks Cliff - enjoyed it too. 

I would add is that everybody wants to be like Leicester and Bournemouth but nobody is as keen to be Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Blackpool etc. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows the intentions or the future behaviour of any new owner - they often start off positive and popular before reality kicks in. 

The other thing is that a self-sustaining model should ensure that our stay in the Championship is shorter than it would otherwise be. Going down in a financially healthy state gives us greater opportunity to employ our natural advantages at Championship level, whilst other larger clubs struggle with the burden of accumulated debt.

[kingsway 94]

This season is unfortunately proving that a self sufficient, the smallest transfer budget spending team, model is very very hard to maintain in the top flight. Although long term we may be in a better position to challenge again once back in the Championship.

 

Although I still say that any club, even Liverpool who had our amount of injuries earlier would of found it difficult.

 

Norwich's track record in big money signings is not good while our record in signing bargain basement players who give good service and terrific value for money has been excellent. - This is not a recent phenomenon, this has been happening for the last 40 years.

 

With our recent woeful expensive signings like Naismith and Van Wolfswinkel being nothing short of disasterous its very understandable the club are very shy in going down that route again.

 

I'll never knock Smith and Wyn Jones cause they've been at the helm for 23.5 years and for a club like Norwich most seasons have been positive ones, most of us haven't got the funds to do similar and most clubs of a similar size without mega rich benefactors haven't done as well in the same time period - Look down the A140 for firm evidence!

Also see also the current plight of Coventry, Bolton in the Third Division and the millions s*unked by Forest and Derby who both have done much less than us in the last 20 years!

Unfortunately nowadays £30M players don't guarantee success. I'm sure the detractors would be going mad now if we had signed a player for £30M who hadn't produced!

 

I do think Delia Wyn Jones need to keep the door open for extra investment unlike the current closed door policy. I've never spoke to nephew Tom but my impression of him is of someone not that clued up and in an ivory tower where he doesn't really understand the fan in the stand, so I've my doubts if he's the answer after aunty and uncle have gone?

 

I think a likely outcome from here going into next season is we will almost certainly go down and then we'll sell 4-5 of our best players raising up to £90M. I think the Board will then give serious consideration to building a new City stand while trying to replicate last seasons success by buying in a number of players on the cheap?

 

The above sentence fully emphasises the point I'm about to make - its easy to talk about something and how to spend money which isn't yours!

Edited December 28, 2019 by kingsway

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9

3 hours ago, City 2nd said:

A point worth making. You refer to the fact there is no point in my making comparison to Liverpool/Man city! 

Well what about Arsenal? They introduced the self sustaining model long before NCFC did. Whilst they sold players, (good players) they also signed players, setting a new transfer record to boot, and they still built the emirates stadium, to increase capacity and swell income, which it did, remaining a top 10 side in the process. I have nothing against the model itself, but just how it is being utilised at CR. Personally I don’t think Webber is doing a good job at all, he has much to learn in respect of self sufficiency and as to where it takes our  club, which does not appear to me to be in an upward spiral at all, and we have owners to quote who “will be happy to see NCFC as a top 26 side!” You use the words we are using the best model available! Is it? Personally I do not think so.

as to your point on continuity re Farke/Webber. Is that likely? Any new director of football (whether if his selection  is overseen by Webber or not) is very likely to want to introduce his own ideas, particularly in respect of our being a yo yo club!

somewhere along the line something has to give, there is little point in promotion from the championship, only to be further relegated again.

its really good to read another perspective FtW, and I agree with much of what you say, and disagree in large parts too, but I hope beyond hope that we can stay up, and Webber and the Smiths can take us forward, but I sincerely do fear for the future. 

I wish you and your family a very happy and very prosperous new year.

You mention Arsenal, but again they're historically a huge club with a big stadium and a massive fanbase. Also, despite their relatively low net spending, their owner has a personal fortune of 10bn. They're in a totally different world. Arsenal fans were frequently at odds with Kroenke (and Usmanov before him) due to a perceived lack of investment.

Webber himself has said he would want to help choose his successor, and while there are no guarantees I can't imagine the board would go for someone with radically different ideas about how to run things.

If I think about it long enough then I do fear for the future; I think there's more likelihood of us being in the Championship than the Prem in five years, but for now I feel the current custodians of the club have earnt more than enough goodwill for us to give this model a fair crack of the whip.

A prosperous and peaceful 2020 to you and yours too!

[Foxy2600 297]

If  championship is VAR free

Relegation can’t come quick enough

TBH I was initially disappointed that my NOW TV subscription was a bit of a con in that Sky used to almost guarantee 5 EPL games a week. Now it seems most weekends are 5 EFL with maybe 3 EPL - and a smattering of SPL Div 1 and Cup games. Having watched some cracking games like Leeds WBA and Brentford Swansea (all without VAR) I’m starting to quite like Championship football.