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lake district canary

Ignoring the noise

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I know a lot of you think I'm barmy, but bear with me on this.  The idea of "ignoring the noise", which is a favourite motto of Farke and which they plaster over the walls of the home dressing room - and put up in away dressing rooms when away from CR - is such an important part of the philosophical approach that has helped us get this far - and it will help us go further.

I would like to see it develop more. Those of you that remember Brian Clough and his success will know that he taught his players not to react to anything that was not to do with actually playing the ball.  He stopped them from complaining about decisions, he taught them to not foul out of frustration or malice - they had very few bookings or sendings off  - in other words he had them in almost the ideal frame of mind 100% of the time, with no wasted energy, distraction or lack of focus. 

We show great composure most of the time, which is why we did so well last season and sometimes this season - and this is going to help us. But it could be taken further - the young players still get over excited and over react sometimes (which is understandable) but Brian Clough would have hated the incident where Todd and Ben were all over the attacker after that "playing on" incident.  Anger/frustration/sense of injustice/over reacting - all emotions that are against the idea of "ignoring the noise" - and I wonder if Daniel would have spoken to them about this after the match. 

What I am saying is that there is a way to go with this "ignoring the noise" idea - we are all learning - and DF is learning too - we can all learn!  It is definitely a good approach to have and helps the focus......Brian Clough got it - and what he achieved when he got it right was incredible, with a combination of strict discipline, togetheness and love.  His exact approach probably wouldn't work these days, players wouldn't stand for it, but the philosophy behind it - which is  based on "ignore the noise" still stands and can help a club that gets that aspect right, achieve way beyond expectations of others. 

 

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Football has changed out of all recognition since Clough. Wenger and Ferguson taught their players to get at the referee all through the game. It worked and now if you don't do it you don't get decisions. 

It was noticeable at Leicester that the commentator on Sky criticised us for it but went quiet when Leicester did the same thing. 

Best referee at Carrow Road this season so far has been Ashley Young which says it all! 

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4 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Football has changed out of all recognition since Clough. Wenger and Ferguson taught their players to get at the referee all through the game. It worked and now if you don't do it you don't get decisions. 

It was noticeable at Leicester that the commentator on Sky criticised us for it but went quiet when Leicester did the same thing. 

Best referee at Carrow Road this season so far has been Ashley Young which says it all! 

He has certainly made the most refereeing decisions this season at CR, that's for sure

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15 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Football has changed out of all recognition since Clough.

No it hasn't, the same principles still apply.  Surrounding the referee is the most crass and unpallatable thing about watching football and if a team gets the occasional decision because of it, so be it, but I don't want to see my team getting decisions that way - I would rather we get success by playing good football.   Football was cynical back in the day of Clough - maybe more so because of the rugged tackling and gamesmanship - just look at Leeds Utd of the same era.

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10 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

No it hasn't, the same principles still apply.  Surrounding the referee is the most crass and unpallatable thing about watching football and if a team gets the occasional decision because of it, so be it, but I don't want to see my team getting decisions that way - I would rather we get success by playing good football.   Football was cynical back in the day of Clough - maybe more so because of the rugged tackling and gamesmanship - just look at Leeds Utd of the same era.

This is nonsense, so far we've played football like we were a top six side, results against Man City, Arsenal and running Chelsea close. 

Trouble is, we're a bottom six side atm, the Teams around us are scrappers and know how to survive in this League. 

If we don't learn to mix it and win ugly occasionally we're not going to survive. I, for one was pleased to see Tettey and Todd getting stuck in and putting up a fight.

Ultimately, you have to make a decision, do you want to take moral high ground,  trying to play pretty football every week while the opposition bully us and go home with the points, sending us back to the Championship. 

Or would you trade some of the 'entertainment' in exchange for the possibility of survival.

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49 minutes ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

Quality post Lakey 

you can publish any old sh1te on here and you can guarantee the same sad muppets will bite every single time 

Pot/kettle.

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2 hours ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

And there is 100% proof absolut vodka running through my veins, which is why I post such irrelevant drivel.

There you go Jobbo,  sorted your post for you.

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Lakey makes a very good point in my opinion.
 
Yes ignoring the noise is a great sentiment, although I would chose a different form of words, as noise is the dominant word here, and the human brain will always (subconsciously) moved toward its dominant thoughts.
 
Having posters plastered everywhere on match day, whilst a good thing, has to be performed with care, because what we are doing is accentuating the word noise.
 
Lakey goes on to talk about Cloughie and how he taught his players to react with calmness and control, the question is how did he do it, simply saying “don’t do this, don’t do that” will most likely fail, because the human subconscious is unable to accept the negative, therefor it will hear, “do it”.  To prove the point please do not think of a giraffe, you will all have done so, maybe fleetingly because your conscious brain will intervene and dismiss the picture, but by then it may be too late.  For example, if a full back is constantly told, “Don’t let him inside” his subconscious, unable to process the negative, will form a picture of the player cutting inside, this for a brief moment becomes the goal, so his subconscious sends the appropriate messages to his body to conform with the picture.  His conscious will kick in milliseconds later but by then it will probably be too late and the oppo is on his way.
 
Whatever our players do, whether it be the example given above or a reaction to a bad foul, etc. essentially we want them all players to react instinctively (sub consciously) but with the right message being sent by their brain.
 
This takes more than a few posters here and there, even if they were the correct message, it takes hard work on behalf of the player (initially), consequently the club needs the best teacher.  I have asked this question before elsewhere, do we have have the best teacher and I do not mean DF, I mean an expert in helping players (and possibly DF, et al) to maximise the performance of their brain, after all the body does nothing without the involvement of the brain, it is the most important weapon in a player’s armoury.  Yes, you need ability, which in itself is trained and improved upon, but improve mindset and the body (skill level) will follow, as a consequence, an improvement in performance and results will follow like rats following the pied piper.
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I'm sure the older posters on here will be aware of the Corinthian Casuals (Motto: Promoting Fair-Play, Sportsmanship and the Corinthian Spirit).

They are currently bottom of the Isthmian Premier League (Tier 7).

Nice guys finish last.

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8 hours ago, lake district canary said:

No it hasn't, the same principles still apply.  Surrounding the referee is the most crass and unpallatable thing about watching football and if a team gets the occasional decision because of it, so be it, but I don't want to see my team getting decisions that way - I would rather we get success by playing good football.   Football was cynical back in the day of Clough - maybe more so because of the rugged tackling and gamesmanship - just look at Leeds Utd of the same era.

I think you've missed the point. Yes the game was more ugly in those days but it was Wenger and Ferguson who taught their players to work the referee. The reason that teams do it is that it works

Edited by dylanisabaddog
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To be fair it does always seem to be that whatever lakey says on here, people will argue the opposite regardless. I’m not sure he could ever say the right thing even if he did.

For what it’s worth, I find your posts a little left field at times lakey, but I think I like that. It can open up new ideas and positive debate. I just think its a shame that somebody who clearly cares, who writes a thought out post, with the intention not to offend anyone has to put up with a series of one liner put downs so frequently. 

Just thought I’d add my opinion. Hope I’m not now a marked man? Shouldn’t be really as I don’t post frequently enough to draw attention to myself hopefully. 

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This raises a couple of things for me. 
 

1) Yes, there’s value in a cool temperament, but like most things in life, it’s about balance. Players must care. Care about their individual performance, about their team members and about the wider club, including the supporters. I know all managers and players will pay lip service to this,  but I really think this is one of the things we have done well. Pretty much every potential first team player has a debt to the club for the chance to prove themselves that they may not have got elsewhere. Our big f******g German is probably the best example, he was considering retirement and becoming a teacher, but it also applies to Teemu, Emi and all the academy players. If they don’t care, if it doesn’t feel important, we won’t get the passion we all feel our club deserves. Emi might be frustrating when he wastes time complaining or sitting on the ground after a foul, but I have no doubt it matters to him. The hot blooded Latin temperament is a cliche, but it is evidence of commitment. We can all come up with players of the past who didn’t exhibit the effort and engagement we expect, but it is rarely the case these days. I love it when Todd comes over and gestures for more support from the crowd - the last thing he is doing is ignoring the noise. Granted I understand you’re not asking for players to be disengaged Lakey, but we don’t want robots out there.

2) On Ray’s points - are you asking if we have a sports psychologist? If so, yes, we do, as does every other PL and probably championship club. I found an interesting article saying that the sports psychologist at Leicester said the season they won the title they had two people in his role, him - and Ranieri. I have little doubt this is an aspect of Farke’s job that he is excellent at. So that should be more than adequately covered.
 

And the on-the-spot “don’t think of a xxxx” example is very different to the training, repetition and coaching that would go into working with a player to prevent them letting an opposition player skin them. The more you work on it, the less likely they are to make that mistake. Reinforcement is what training achieves, not the opposite - see Malcolm Gladwell’s “10,000 hours” idea (https://problogservice.com/2012/03/15/what-malcolm-gladwell-really-said-about-the-10000-hour-rule/).

 

Edited by Nuff Said
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Hi Nuff Said,

Re Point 2) Are you saying we have a Psychologist on board or are you saying that role is performed by DF?  If we have one I would like to know who fulfils this role?

Also I agree with your point re repetition, however this is the body training the mind, and is/can be effective, however my point is it is more effective if the mind trains the body.  It is the mind/brain/mindset that drives all physical activity.

Cheers

Ray

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Ray said:

Having posters plastered everywhere on match day, whilst a good thing, has to be performed with care, because what we are doing is accentuating the word noise.

I agree that it has to be more than just slogans - there has to be a complete mindset about this.   Imo to get the best from the reinforcement of the message "ignore the noise", it has to be done on an almost buddhist style engagement of quieting the mind to the point that emotions are allowed but not acted upon.  

For example - the way Todd ran over to get involved with the malarky over that playing on incident.....yes, anger needed to be shown because of what happened, but it needed to be controlled. That isn't just accepting "oh, he's young and will learn" but getting the right level of response is needed for the situation and not going over the top. The players surrounding the ref thing is another aspect of the modern game that some think is necessary - but it isn't - it is a waste of mental energy that could be better used keeping focus. 

The mental approach is absolutely key to the Farke methods - as proved last season by the composure we showed at all times, even when down in a match - and to a certain extent it has happened this season too. I do though think that some of the flat performances that have happened this season have been as a result of trying to be too calm and controlled - but that is a balance the team will learn to get right imo.

I am loving the approach we have as it kind of reflects how I try to look at things, I don't class myself as buddhist, but the phrase  "ignoring the noise" sits very well with me - and it is not just about ignoring things that are happening say in the hustle and bustle of a football match, but a more fundamental "ignoring mental noise" which is more important - we all have loads of stuff going around in our minds that is just garbage or that we attach too much importance to - and the mindless chatter and distractions that modern life puts in our way can just overwhelm us.

In football terms, being calm and focussed as individuals and as a team a is fundamental - but it isn't easy - look at Leeds last season, good team, good players, but ultimately mentally weak and lacking in composure. Same with all the other teams with apparently good and strong squads.....not able to get the right level of togetherness and mental approach to do well. That is why money can get in the way - our approach, which does not have money as its focus, has something far better to keep it on the right track.....it has a philosophy that is geared totally to the "whole" rather than the individual.  So, it is a case of individuals having the right mental attitude of quieting the mind that can combine to make a collective group that has at it's heart a unity and purpose and way of thinking that transcends what many other clubs can do. 

That is why the signs are up "ignore the (mental) noise", that is why Farke's and Webber's  methods are so effective, that is why we are succesful as a club, that is why the fans are so important to be on board with the club - it is the whole rather than the individual that is important.  Ignore the noise is not just a slogan, it is a way of life. 

Edited by lake district canary

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LDC,
 
I think it possible that I am failing to explain my point fully, which is challenging on a forum, so I will have another go.
 
Taking your point of “quieting the mind to the point that emotions are allowed but not acted upon”, all emotions are acted upon, it is what the brain does, however my point is, train the brain to create the best subconscious emotions to ensure the most appropriate behaviour to secure a desired outcome.
 
Turning to, “ anger needed to be shown because of what happened but it needed to be controlled”.  I have no issue with anger, however to control the immediate emotion of anger, which is created by the subconscious, requires the conscious to take control, and the conscious always lags behind the subconscious, therefore the initial behaviour is a merciless reflection of the initial subconscious emotion of anger.  Again, surely better to train the subconscious to provide the emotions that will give the desired behaviour to secure a desired outcome.  Anyway as an aside, the most satisfying form of revenge is massive success, I guess the type of revenge sought depends on the individuals internal definition of success.
 
The example of Todd is a good one, what if he had already been booked or VAR had taken a different view, he would have been off, I hardly call that the best form of revenge, furthermore he had created a ‘negative’ emotion, which produces certain chemicals and hormones associated with negativity, they hang around for a while leaving behind a ‘negative’ frame of mind for a few minutes, consequently this will affect his play and limit the ‘positive’ side of his game.  I once saw a player (who I know knows the stuff I am referring to) get head butted by another player, his immediate response was to turn his back and walk away, the culprit was sent off, had the victim reacted there would have been a possibility he would have gone too.  This was only achieved because he had trained his subconscious to react this way.
 
The players surrounding the referee point I agree, is a waste of mental energy, furthermore, as per Todd’s case, it produces ‘negative’ chemicals and all that brings.  How often have we seen a player get booked for what he thought was an innocuous challenge, become all het up and angry, shout at the ref, etc. flooding his brain with ‘negative’ chemicals and then within a minute or two do something stupid, receive a second yellow and his marching orders?
 
Your point, “but that is a balance the team will learn to get right”, again I am in full agreement with you, which leads me to my point about,  what are we doing to speed up the process?  Having the understanding, and I mean in depth understanding, of how improving even further the mental side of the team’s (players’) game will undoubtedly create an advantage and subsequent points.
 
Turning to ‘Ignoring the noise’ I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, however I would go about it in a different way, or in other words use different words!!  Also, as you say, it should be a way of life, again back to my question what are we doing to ensure it is?
 
To give an example of some of this at work, I know of a centre forward who was bearing down on goal at Stamford Bridge and for some reason, unbeknown to him at the time, he took a touch of the ball he didn’t need to take and consequently did not score.  When in discussion a later time, the CF said “At the time I didn’t understand why I took the touch but now I do, it was because my subconscious said, “I must not let Terry get to me”, and as a result I created a picture in my mind of being tackled by Terry and I now realise that because my brain is hard wired to achieve, my subconscious sent the necessary signals to my body to do something to slow me down to give Terry time to tackle me."  Which is exactly what happened.  All this happened before his conscious could override his subconscious.  He then went on to train his brain to adopt a different mindset which produced improved results, there was of course nothing he could do about the spurned opportunity at Stamford Bridge.
 
I am sure Messrs Webber's and Farke's  methods are effective, my question is, with more/different help could they and our team be more so.  It is tiny margins that make the difference at this level
 
OTBC

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On 18/12/2019 at 17:06, Mr Angry said:

I'm sure the older posters on here will be aware of the Corinthian Casuals (Motto: Promoting Fair-Play, Sportsmanship and the Corinthian Spirit).

They are currently bottom of the Isthmian Premier League (Tier 7).

Nice guys finish last.

Back in the day their goalkeepers used to stand to the side of the goal when the opposition took a penalty.

Mind you with our record we’d still hit the post...

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22 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

 I love it when Todd comes over and gestures for more support from the crowd - the last thing he is doing is ignoring the noise. Granted I understand you’re not asking for players to be disengaged Lakey, but we don’t want robots out there.

Todd and others geeing up the crowd is good - it's not that sort of noise that the slogans "ignore the noise" are about. It's about mental quietness. It's not about being robots either, it's simply about getting into a quiet but focussed frame of mind that can't be distracted, whether it is threatened by nerves, poor referee's decisions, mistakes, bad fouls, apparent injustice with var, negative noise from the terraces, the weather - in short anything that can interupt the focus on the job at hand.

Focus is easily lost and as Ray said, if you lose your focus for some reason through anger or whatever, even for a few seconds, that can be enough to affect your team's togetherness until you get your individual focus back and of course the collective focus as a team - and at the top level can cost you the game.

 

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And of course LDC, nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so.  Shakespeare, Hamlet

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22 hours ago, Ray said:

Hi Nuff Said,

Re Point 2) Are you saying we have a Psychologist on board or are you saying that role is performed by DF?  If we have one I would like to know who fulfils this role?

Also I agree with your point re repetition, however this is the body training the mind, and is/can be effective, however my point is it is more effective if the mind trains the body.  It is the mind/brain/mindset that drives all physical activity.

Cheers

Ray

 

 

 

 

Well, I thought we did. After a bit of internet research on the train home last night, it appears that we have but his primary role is to work with academy players. If we don’t (ignoring what I quoted about the coach being a defacto sports psychologist) surely that is a massive gap?

 

And, without wanting to be a PITA pedant, the commonly accepted word is unconscious, not subconscious. The subconscious tends to be thought of as a Freudian concept where thoughts are suppressed, so below the surface but with the potential to emerge into consciousness. Whereas unconscious ideas are permanently below the conscious level, i.e. inaccessible. And while of historical and academic interest, Freud’s detailed theories are no longer considered that relevant in psychotherapeutic and related fields these days.

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Thanks for your reply Nuff Said.

I've had a few so am close to unconcious so will reply in more depth in the morning.

Cheers 

Ray

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In an ideal world, all teams would 'ignore the noise', but in the real world where one point can be worth absurd sums of money in terms of survival, Champions League qualification and whatnot then no team is going to adopt it, and they'll use every underhanded, dirty trick in the book to gain an advantage.

Any 'ignore the noise' directive needs to come from above, and it would start by referees booking players for dissent and other unsporting behaviour. You'd have several red cards per match for a couple of weeks but players would learn soon enough...

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

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