Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Jonncfc

Self-sustaining model

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Norwich lose a match = all this self sustaining owner bashing **** comes out

Norwich win a match = No one apart from Big bloody Vince the online troll can actually hold to it.

Because it's relevant to why we're losing. We used today  13 players who were here last season and a backup right back at left back.

Sheffield United on the other hand actually bothered to invest in the squad and were able to bring 3 new signings off the bench to manage the game, while we were left with throwing a league one quality striker on to chase a goal.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Norwich win a match - people praise Delia and co

Norwich lose a match - supporters fault / its not Delia's fault

I could go on but it's all a bit silly.

That's because it's all bollox.

Norwich do well it's despite Delia.

Norwich do badly it's because of Delia.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, king canary said:

Because it's relevant to why we're losing. We used today  13 players who were here last season and a backup right back at left back.

Sheffield United on the other hand actually bothered to invest in the squad and were able to bring 3 new signings off the bench to manage the game, while we were left with throwing a league one quality striker on to chase a goal.

But it's not relevant when that same player is confirming our victory away at Goodison by scoring the second goal?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, City 2nd said:

I won’t argue with you Aggy. You are correct. I have been watching city for 55+ years however, and whether it’s Chase, Watling or the current incumbents, nothing changes, self sustaining or not! We have been here before and likely will be again. Let’s see what model Delia and hubby comes up with next, because this isn’t their first or last idea methinks

2 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

This. The only reason we’re pursuing the self-sustainable model is not because it’s the best thing for the club, but because it’s the only way we can realistically survive with Delia retaining ownership.

The ambition to use this model and compete as a top 26 club will be shown to be impossible when we get relegated again and other teams in the Championship who are funded by richer owners can buy quality players we can’t stretch to and we end up unable to compete for promotion. 

The problem is there are 92 sides in the top 4 flights plus however many hundreds or thousands lower down. If everyone could just go out and get a rich investor which guaranteed success, then everyone would do it and we’d still be in the same position.
 

A lot of my mates are Forest fans. This is the 8th season since their two successive “rich investors” took over, and they’ve had a total of 0 seasons in the prem (and incidentally haven’t finished in the “top 26” once) in that period. This is our 4th season in the prem in the same period. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Self Sustainability isn’t a model. It’s a necessity born out of having owners that don’t want to /can’t put in any money . 

I think the issue a lot of the more reasonable supporters who agree with the model is that it doesn’t prevent you spending money.

Players are saleable assets, yes we needed to avoid the Naismiths and RVWs, but we seem to have been fearful of any major investment. We didn’t have to spend the 100+ million of other clubs, but we could have spent some money on some relatively low risk (recoupable or championship proven) talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

This. The only reason we’re pursuing the self-sustainable model is not because it’s the best thing for the club, but because it’s the only way we can realistically survive with Delia retaining ownership.

The ambition to use this model and compete as a top 26 club will be shown to be impossible when we get relegated again and other teams in the Championship who are funded by richer owners can buy quality players we can’t stretch to and we end up unable to compete for promotion. 

Canary Wundaboy, we’re on the same page and you highlight the obvious!

what I can’t understand is why so many fans don’t or are unwilling to see the obvious.

whilst Delia and Michael own the club, there is zero chance of the club becoming an established premier league side!

there is no denying their support or passion but the reality is money talks in the EPL.

Leicester a similar size town and club seem to be doing ok, with an owner that’s not born and bred!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

This. The only reason we’re pursuing the self-sustainable model is not because it’s the best thing for the club, but because it’s the only way we can realistically survive with Delia retaining ownership.

The ambition to use this model and compete as a top 26 club will be shown to be impossible when we get relegated again and other teams in the Championship who are funded by richer owners can buy quality players we can’t stretch to and we end up unable to compete for promotion. 

Don't forget though ... we finished above plenty of Champ teams who had spashed big bucks last season.

The problem isn't investment it's style of play.

We are the direct replacement of Fulham last season.

Pretty possession football won promotion but unless you invest crazy crazy money (Fulham 'just' invested crazy money) you will get knocked about by a Premier League dominated by powerful midfield players and lethal strikers.

Edited by Cantiaci Canary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate all the club bashing every time we lose. The simple fact is we don’t have the money to compete at this level and therefore we have to take an approach that is more around sustainability, nurturing talent and looking for bargains and we will always be in the favourites to go down for that reason. There are a lot of people expressing opinion with power of hindsight around our team and approach that certainly didn’t say that much in the summer. Personally I think the loss of Klose was big, Godfrey always deserved to play as did Lewis and Aaron’s but I envisaged a time when experience would be invaluable too, he was our £8m international defender and we miss him. 

I think if there is one area where I could be critical regarding recruitment  it is the lack of value any of the additions have made to the squad. Only Byram and Amadou looks like they can play at this level but not really better than we have and we clearly lack some extra quality further forward, Drmic and Roberts haven’t quite worked out, both looked like gambles given their injury record and it has unfortunately turned out that way. Personal view is that there must have been a loan option we could have gone for, a Harry Wilson for example that would have given us some optionality which we just don’t seem to possess, an injury to Pukki is a frightening thought.

we have  to keep fighting and hope for a game to go our way through luck, bad decision or whatever that brings a confidence bounce but we do look in trouble for now 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are happy not being competitive in this league then our "model" is fine... If you would like us to be competitive in the premiership we need a change. Our record in this league 100% proves that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I think the issue a lot of the more reasonable supporters who agree with the model is that it doesn’t prevent you spending money.

Players are saleable assets, yes we needed to avoid the Naismiths and RVWs, but we seem to have been fearful of any major investment. We didn’t have to spend the 100+ million of other clubs, but we could have spent some money on some relatively low risk (recoupable or championship proven) talent.

I think that’s fair, and we should have been able to spend 10million or so. One centre half in for that could have made a difference, but I’m not sure it would have done. There are a lot of problems defensively, not just missing one quality player. It’s also difficult to splash lots of money on new players when a big part of us coming up was the team cohesiveness and we had a lot of youngsters who (we hoped) would only get better with more experience. Does your 10 mil centre half replace Godfrey? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But it's not relevant when that same player is confirming our victory away at Goodison by scoring the second goal?

He’s not good enough for this league, he shouldn’t even be an option 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But it's not relevant when that same player is confirming our victory away at Goodison by scoring the second goal?

It might be if it wasn't the exception to the norm.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Quite simply, we cannot spend what we do not have.

The club (and it is just a company like any other) lost £35 million last year. That has to be recovered somehow.

A debt that has been overturned, so the director of football states, to a plus 20 million or more next season! So that debt has been recovered! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I think that’s fair, and we should have been able to spend 10million or so. One centre half in for that could have made a difference, but I’m not sure it would have done. There are a lot of problems defensively, not just missing one quality player. It’s also difficult to splash lots of money on new players when a big part of us coming up was the team cohesiveness and we had a lot of youngsters who (we hoped) would only get better with more experience. Does your 10 mil centre half replace Godfrey? 

I didn’t suggest we spend 10 million on 1 centre half? 

I’m not sure why you’ve taken my comment off on a hypothetical tangent unrelated to what I said.

My point was we should have been able to purchase another 2 or 3 first team challenging players and that would have been neither particular risky or hard to achieve if we’d got our scouting right.

We managed to recruit the current team on a shoestring so finding a few good players capable of competing with them shouldn’t have been so difficult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

A debt that has been overturned, so the director of football states, to a plus 20 million or more next season! So that debt has been recovered! 

 

Yes but once you commit to a new players contract its not just for one year is it? Its three years or more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

I didn’t suggest we spend 10 million on 1 centre half? 

I’m not sure why you’ve taken my comment off on a hypothetical tangent unrelated to what I said.

My point was we should have been able to purchase another 2 or 3 first team challenging players and that would have been neither particular risky or hard to achieve if we’d got our scouting right.

We managed to recruit the current team on a shoestring so finding a few good players capable of competing with them shouldn’t have been so difficult.

That's my take on it too. It shouldn't be beyond the club to spend £25-30m in a summer without risking the future, especially if you've got faith in Webber's ability to recruit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is what it is but it certainly won't sustain us as a Premier League team.

Anyway, lets just enjoy the YOYO.😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I didn’t suggest we spend 10 million on 1 centre half? 

I’m not sure why you’ve taken my comment off on a hypothetical tangent unrelated to what I said.

My point was we should have been able to purchase another 2 or 3 first team challenging players and that would have been neither particular risky or hard to achieve if we’d got our scouting right.

We managed to recruit the current team on a shoestring so finding a few good players capable of competing with them shouldn’t have been so difficult.

I didn’t say you did.
I said that I think we could have spent around 10 mil, but don’t think it would have improved the squad significantly (so what is the point of spending it in the first place). 

You didn’t list any figures in your post. We’ve brought in Bryam and Amadou (the latter on loan with an option to buy) - that’s two “first-team challenging players”. So presumably you mean we needed to bring in two or three c.10million pound players. I’m not sure we could afford that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I didn’t say you did.
I said that I think we could have spent around 10 mil, but don’t think it would have improved the squad significantly (so what is the point of spending it in the first place). 

You didn’t list any figures in your post. We’ve brought in Bryam and Amadou (the latter on loan with an option to buy) - that’s two “first-team challenging players”. So presumably you mean we needed to bring in two or three c.10million pound players. I’m not sure we could afford that much.

Spend 15-30 million on new players? Yes that seems a reasonable and realistic ask and I’m unclear why we couldn’t have afforded it. We don’t pay all that money straight away and it’s not like when we have the players we have lost that cash, players are assets and we will inevitably end up selling some when we go down, that’s not a reason to not buy any.

Edited by Monty13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The model is the only option we have. We're not an attractive club for good investors so it's this or nothing. If anyone thinks theres a benevolent billionaire out there who would want to bankroll us you are deluded. If we end up knocking about L1 anytime soon and the value of the club plummets someone might come knocking, but there isn't any money to be made by owning us, so no one is interested. We don't have a big enough international profile to be worth owning for branding purposes, we're not close enough to London or in a posh enough area or fashionable or trendy enough to be someones boutique club, we're not a sleeping giant with all the infrastructure in place that just needs better management to become an established Pl side, it would cost a fortune to improve what we have with no prospect of making the money back. For the moment we have the best owners we can attract, thinking theres a line of Sheikh Mansour's queueing up around the bloc wanting to buy us is a complete fantasy.

 

I don't like our current seemingly impenetrable glass ceiling any more than anyone else, but if you think the cause is a stubborn, idealistic owner hoarding her train set, refusing to sell to one of many benevolent billionaires who have the money and nous to turn Norwich into the next Leicester then I'd say get you're head out of the clouds. it's this or McNally's model, both are flawed but it's the best choice we have.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jonncfc said:

Sad though it is to have to admit, but it really does seem that the noble ideal of being a self-sustaining club that lives and succeeds within its own means without external investment is naïve and doomed to failure.  In an egalitarian socialist utopia where all clubs operate on a level playing field this would be a realistic way to operate, but football these days, particularly at the highest level where the rewards are huge, requires enormous investment.  Yes, we can sell some of our younger home-grown players, probably for severals tens of millions, but always offloading our best players to make ends meet is never going to be a model for becoming an established and successful team in the Premier League.  It really is time to accept that the “Little Norwich” mentality has to change.  For those that disagree, have a look at Leicester by way of comparison.  That league table recently published showing the relative worth of the owners of all Premier League clubs was very telling.

There's no need to shout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no way , even if we did spend a shoiteload on a couple of players , that we'd see them before mid feb at the earliest, it just doesnt seem to be DFs way. He likes to get them integrated first. Only if we had no player for a certain position would he drop them straight in the starting line up. So no instant fixes in the post lads. Suck it up cos it aint about this week, or next, its about the long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

The model is the only option we have. We're not an attractive club for good investors so it's this or nothing. If anyone thinks theres a benevolent billionaire out there who would want to bankroll us you are deluded. If we end up knocking about L1 anytime soon and the value of the club plummets someone might come knocking, but there isn't any money to be made by owning us, so no one is interested. We don't have a big enough international profile to be worth owning for branding purposes, we're not close enough to London or in a posh enough area or fashionable or trendy enough to be someones boutique club, we're not a sleeping giant with all the infrastructure in place that just needs better management to become an established Pl side, it would cost a fortune to improve what we have with no prospect of making the money back. For the moment we have the best owners we can attract, thinking theres a line of Sheikh Mansour's queueing up around the bloc wanting to buy us is a complete fantasy.

 

I don't like our current seemingly impenetrable glass ceiling any more than anyone else, but if you think the cause is a stubborn, idealistic owner hoarding her train set, refusing to sell to one of many benevolent billionaires who have the money and nous to turn Norwich into the next Leicester then I'd say get you're head out of the clouds. it's this or McNally's model, both are flawed but it's the best choice we have.

Run out of likes, but this.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 'model' is about financial stability, not success on the pitch. As long as people are prepared to come through the turnstiles you can run a financially viable football club as well in the Championship or League One as you can in the Premier League.

We buy young, underrated and/or undervalued players, coach them to play in an attractive technical style that is both entertaining to watch and makes them attractive to bigger clubs and then hope to sell them on for a profit. That's the model. It's nothing to do with being successful in the Premier League.

If you haven't got hundreds of millions to buy technical players with real quality then you need to build a more modest squad that plays a more industrial style of football to have a chance of staying up and that's not what we set out to do.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

He’s not good enough for this league, he shouldn’t even be an option 

Yet the Sloughbottom wonder, Cantwell (who in fairness conjured up our only chance 2nd half), and a left back were our Farke's answer to saving the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

The model is the only option we have. We're not an attractive club for good investors so it's this or nothing. If anyone thinks theres a benevolent billionaire out there who would want to bankroll us you are deluded. If we end up knocking about L1 anytime soon and the value of the club plummets someone might come knocking, but there isn't any money to be made by owning us, so no one is interested. We don't have a big enough international profile to be worth owning for branding purposes, we're not close enough to London or in a posh enough area or fashionable or trendy enough to be someones boutique club, we're not a sleeping giant with all the infrastructure in place that just needs better management to become an established Pl side, it would cost a fortune to improve what we have with no prospect of making the money back. For the moment we have the best owners we can attract, thinking theres a line of Sheikh Mansour's queueing up around the bloc wanting to buy us is a complete fantasy.

 

I don't like our current seemingly impenetrable glass ceiling any more than anyone else, but if you think the cause is a stubborn, idealistic owner hoarding her train set, refusing to sell to one of many benevolent billionaires who have the money and nous to turn Norwich into the next Leicester then I'd say get you're head out of the clouds. it's this or McNally's model, both are flawed but it's the best choice we have.

And Leicester are an attractive club with international appeal??

I'm getting despondent i am afraid. this is history repeating itself. The Smiths are of an age where they won't take risks or cannot afford to take risks as they most likely do not have sustainable earnings outside the football club. Its time for a change. All this guff about a self-sustaining model masks the real issue. Sport is about competition and improvement and not self-serving mediocrity. 'You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.'  They are pi55ing a great opportunity up the wall and the 'mummy knows best' attitude is really beginning to pi55 me off. They need to sell up but wont consider offers. enough said. who are the mugs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

The model is the only option we have. We're not an attractive club for good investors so it's this or nothing. If anyone thinks theres a benevolent billionaire out there who would want to bankroll us you are deluded. If we end up knocking about L1 anytime soon and the value of the club plummets someone might come knocking, but there isn't any money to be made by owning us, so no one is interested. We don't have a big enough international profile to be worth owning for branding purposes, we're not close enough to London or in a posh enough area or fashionable or trendy enough to be someones boutique club, we're not a sleeping giant with all the infrastructure in place that just needs better management to become an established Pl side, it would cost a fortune to improve what we have with no prospect of making the money back. For the moment we have the best owners we can attract, thinking theres a line of Sheikh Mansour's queueing up around the bloc wanting to buy us is a complete fantasy.

 

I don't like our current seemingly impenetrable glass ceiling any more than anyone else, but if you think the cause is a stubborn, idealistic owner hoarding her train set, refusing to sell to one of many benevolent billionaires who have the money and nous to turn Norwich into the next Leicester then I'd say get you're head out of the clouds. it's this or McNally's model, both are flawed but it's the best choice we have.

I just don’t accept that. There have been times, including this season where I think we would have been extremely attractive to potential purchasers. Really all they need to do infrastructure wise is find a new stand. 
 

That is if our owners are not looking to make a big profit out of selling the club!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

The 'model' is about financial stability, not success on the pitch. As long as people are prepared to come through the turnstiles you can run a financially viable football club as well in the Championship or League One as you can in the Premier League.

We buy young, underrated and/or undervalued players, coach them to play in an attractive technical style that is both entertaining to watch and makes them attractive to bigger clubs and then hope to sell them on for a profit. That's the model. It's nothing to do with being successful in the Premier League.

If you haven't got hundreds of millions to buy technical players with real quality then you need to build a more modest squad that plays a more industrial style of football to have a chance of staying up and that's not what we set out to do.

The model is about them retaining ownership of the club. It’s necessary because of that. I agree it’s not about success on the pitch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×