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Self-sustaining model

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1 minute ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Enough of the fans will swallow and defend the model as long as there’s some success. The odd promotion, a half-hearted attempt at PL survival etc. Let’s see if the model survives a few years being stuck in the Champs when the fans are fed up with mediocrity and we finally lose to Ipswich.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ.

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7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

You still believe it's miraculous. You saw nothing leading up to that date to suggest we could be competitive. You only saw dire turgid football.

I find that hard to believe. I honestly do. Do you believe in other miraculous things? 

You reckon I search your post history. You think I don't have a memory of what others post to me? 

It's even more embarrassing that you've never given any credit to the owners for their successes. You just move seamlessly to the next time there's a bad run and start up again. 

Your belief was that this glass ceiling would keep us in the bottom half of the championship. 15 months later and your glass ceiling gas shot up further and quicker than the great glass elevator.

Like you I'm not interested in whataboutery especially over mythical owners that are being somehow prevented from spending their money to please you.

If you get your lottery win it won't make you happy. I guarantee it. You'll always want more money. You won't enjoy the money you have and the success it brings. You'll just decide you'd be happier with someone else's money and justify that as some sort of warped ambition.

 

1. I challenge anyone who saw any of what we were putting out up until the 1-1 against Ipswich to suggest that the remainder of last season was what we had around the corner. Credit to Farke for that change though, my belief is that the change was down to bringing the youth through and bedding in Buendia but nevertheless could anyone have foreseen the impact they ultimately had on the side? If you can honestly say after getting humped 3-0 by Leeds that you saw this coming then you're either Nostradamus or a huge bullsh*tter.

2. Realistically what counts as success for Norwich? I know that you're one of those that has bought into this self funding model idea so I'm sure you're delighted that we've got lots of young exciting players that will make us oodles of money when the bigger boys decide to wave their cheque books out.  Each successive promotion has lost the gloss for me because as great as last season was, as we are being hamstrung by the owners inability/unwillingness to invest in the summer, our current position has to be expected.  I'm sorry but I'm not exactly excited by the thought of coming back down with oodles of cash but likely minus the likes of Godfrey/Aarons/Pukki that got us here in the first place and no guarantee of return. I don't particularly wish to celebrate Delia's influence in this. Sorry/not sorry.

3. My belief was that our natural position would be mid table in the Champs.  Concurrently, my belief was and still is that the limit of our ability under Delia and her self funding model is only a little higher than where we currently are.  They are 2 different things and can co-exist.

4. I really struggle to understand your motivation for pretty much everything you post on this board. I understand that for some, Delia is a goddess but you and some others still act as a bastion of defence for her, ignoring and often attacking any views that dont align with your own and then coming up with some sort of hyperbole to attempt to diminish alternative motivations.  "Mythical owners" have been found at plenty of other clubs, but ours have publicly flat out refused to engage with anyone. For me, along with their seeming insistence on gifting the club to Tom, just looks like a narrow minded approach to the detriment of the club.

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The limit of the model (or our glass ceiling if you like) is us being a yo-yo club or if you want it from the horses mouth "Top 26" as they have confirmed is the objective. They have obviously chosen that objective because they think its indicative of the club performing at its optimum level under the model/constraints that we have.

I completely accept that some fans are satisfied with that. They are happy being a yo-yo club. Many prefer the championship (although that wasn't the case when we tended to do a bit better in the top division). many of these fans have bought into the notion that relegation from the premier league is more or less inevitable because we cannot really compete financially at that level but don't mind that. 

Other fans find the continued failure at the top level and lack of willingness to really do all that we can to stay there (including the possibility of new ownership) more frustrating and think we can strive for a bit more. They are becoming disillusioned with the realisation that at this level we are just never going to be truly competitive under this model.

Some probably fall into the second category but also accept the line that there is nobody out there wanting to buy a club like Norwich so it is what it is. 

As others have said it really depends what you aspire to for the club and what you are looking for from supporting the club. Its fairly easy to see which of the two camps most of us fall into on this message board but as ever there will be people all across the spectrum between two extremes.

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30 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

1. I challenge anyone who saw any of what we were putting out up until the 1-1 against Ipswich to suggest that the remainder of last season was what we had around the corner. Credit to Farke for that change though, my belief is that the change was down to bringing the youth through and bedding in Buendia but nevertheless could anyone have foreseen the impact they ultimately had on the side? If you can honestly say after getting humped 3-0 by Leeds that you saw this coming then you're either Nostradamus or a huge bullsh*tter.

2. Realistically what counts as success for Norwich? I know that you're one of those that has bought into this self funding model idea so I'm sure you're delighted that we've got lots of young exciting players that will make us oodles of money when the bigger boys decide to wave their cheque books out.  Each successive promotion has lost the gloss for me because as great as last season was, as we are being hamstrung by the owners inability/unwillingness to invest in the summer, our current position has to be expected.  I'm sorry but I'm not exactly excited by the wthought of coming back down with oodles of cash but likely minus the likes of Godfrey/Aarons/Pukki that got us here in the first place and no guarantee of return. I don't particularly wish to celebrate Delia's influence in this. Sorry/not sorry.

3. My belief was that our natural position would be mid table in the Champs.  Concurrently, my belief was and still is that the limit of our ability under Delia and her self funding model is only a little higher than where we currently are.  They are 2 different things and can co-exist.

4. I really struggle to understand your motivation for pretty much everything you post on this board. I understand that for some, Delia is a goddess but you and some others still act as a bastion of defence for her, ignoring and often attacking any views that dont align with your own and then coming up with some sort of hyperbole to attempt to diminish alternative motivations.  "Mythical owners" have been found at plenty of other clubs, but ours have publicly flat out refused to engage with anyone. For me, along with their seeming insistence on gifting the club to Tom, just looks like a narrow minded approach to the detriment of the club.

1.of course credit goes to Farke, Webber, the team for that success. That doesn't mean it didn't happen under the owners too. The idea that they  were responsible 15 months ago but we're not responsible for what happened afterwards is one eyed nonsense.

2. What do you think happens to the millions we get if it's not invested? Where do you think it goes?

3.you believe our natural position is mid-table champs. This is the 9th out of the last 10 seasons that we have massively over achieved beyond that position. How can your views about our owners happily exist with that?

4. My opinion is no more valid than anyone elses but for you to accuse me of hyperbole is beyond ironic. My views are taken from what's happened in the league in reality.Yours appear to be from a reality that only exists in your head.

5. I'd be interested to know the 30 odd clubs whose natural position is above us and how their owners have fared in the last 10 seasons. But then you're not interested in whataboutery unless it fits your point of view.

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23 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The limit of the model (or our glass ceiling if you like) is us being a yo-yo club or if you want it from the horses mouth "Top 26" as they have confirmed is the objective. They have obviously chosen that objective because they think its indicative of the club performing at its optimum level under the model/constraints that we have.

I completely accept that some fans are satisfied with that. They are happy being a yo-yo club. Many prefer the championship (although that wasn't the case when we tended to do a bit better in the top division). many of these fans have bought into the notion that relegation from the premier league is more or less inevitable because we cannot really compete financially at that level but don't mind that. 

Other fans find the continued failure at the top level and lack of willingness to really do all that we can to stay there (including the possibility of new ownership) more frustrating and think we can strive for a bit more. They are becoming disillusioned with the realisation that at this level we are just never going to be truly competitive under this model.

Some probably fall into the second category but also accept the line that there is nobody out there wanting to buy a club like Norwich so it is what it is. 

As others have said it really depends what you aspire to for the club and what you are looking for from supporting the club. Its fairly easy to see which of the two camps most of us fall into on this message board but as ever there will be people all across the spectrum between two extremes.

Really? There are 2 ways of thinking and both are understandable? You wouldn't think it from some on here 🙂

I jest but I simply cannot fathom those that dont just disagree with but attack views that are ultimately rooted in wanting better for the club.

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Just now, nutty nigel said:

1.of course credit goes to Farke, Webber, the team for that success. That doesn't mean it didn't happen under the owners too. The idea that they  were responsible 15 months ago but we're not responsible for what happened afterwards is one eyed nonsense.

2. What do you think happens to the millions we get if it's not invested? Where do you think it goes?

3.you believe our natural position is mid-table champs. This is the 9th out of the last 10 seasons that we have massively over achieved beyond that position. How can your views about our owners happily exist with that?

4. My opinion is no more valid than anyone elses but for you to accuse me of hyperbole is beyond ironic. My views are taken from what's happened in the league in reality.Yours appear to be from a reality that only exists in your head.

5. I'd be interested to know the 30 odd clubs whose natural position is above us and how their owners have fared in the last 10 seasons. But then you're not interested in whataboutery unless it fits your point of view.

1. Ok so let's spin this around. If the recent promotions are down to Delia, is the failure to build on that not also down to her?

2. My point is that there is not ever a guarantee of return to the Premier League, and there's no point in having all this money and being the richest club in the championship. We're here now, and have been 3 times in the last 10 years. Ironically the only time we made a decent fist of the summer transfer window was first time around when we were trying to pay back £30m odd in debt.

3. You missed the past tense - I believed in that moment that the way that the club was headed, mid table champs was the about par for our situation and very little leading up to that stage suggested we were due a promotion push let alone what we did achieve. We were a club in decline being made to suffer for bad decisions in the previous few seasons. I still await your admission of amazing hindsight saying that you did see this coming.

4. If your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses on this board then please accept that and dont go out of your way to attack other views. I'm happy that I was wrong about last season but let's be honest, no-one saw it coming and was based out of what I saw happening at the time. I stand by my "glass ceiling" view and we currently see a lack of summer investment and likely failure once again to capitalise on another PL opportunity. Like I said, I'd be happy for you to pick this up again in 15 months if we're sitting mid table in the PL towards the end of next season.

5. You really need to move away from this obsession of needing to compare us to other clubs with money.  As I've said many times, I'm only interested in comparing our performance against our potential. By extension, using your method we could lose every game 5-0 this season but that would be ok because Derby have spent a load of money but arent in the Premier League. I see this clubs potential and set up as being something more than just being happy to be in the PL and taking the money.

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2 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Jesus tap-dancing Christ.

Did you cringe as much as I did?

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3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Did you cringe as much as I did?

Sooooo hard. It's almost like some people would like us to get relegated and lose to Ipswich, just so they could be proven right with their miserablist musings.

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3 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

1. Ok so let's spin this around. If the recent promotions are down to Delia, is the failure to build on that not also down to her?

2. My point is that there is not ever a guarantee of return to the Premier League, and there's no point in having all this money and being the richest club in the championship. We're here now, and have been 3 times in the last 10 years. Ironically the only time we made a decent fist of the summer transfer window was first time around when we were trying to pay back £30m odd in debt.

3. You missed the past tense - I believed in that moment that the way that the club was headed, mid table champs was the about par for our situation and very little leading up to that stage suggested we were due a promotion push let alone what we did achieve. We were a club in decline being made to suffer for bad decisions in the previous few seasons. I still await your admission of amazing hindsight saying that you did see this coming.

4. If your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses on this board then please accept that and dont go out of your way to attack other views. I'm happy that I was wrong about last season but let's be honest, no-one saw it coming and was based out of what I saw happening at the time. I stand by my "glass ceiling" view and we currently see a lack of summer investment and likely failure once again to capitalise on another PL opportunity. Like I said, I'd be happy for you to pick this up again in 15 months if we're sitting mid table in the PL towards the end of next season.

5. You really need to move away from this obsession of needing to compare us to other clubs with money.  As I've said many times, I'm only interested in comparing our performance against our potential. By extension, using your method we could lose every game 5-0 this season but that would be ok because Derby have spent a load of money but arent in the Premier League. I see this clubs potential and set up as being something more than just being happy to be in the PL and taking the money.

You want what the other clubs have got but refuse to compare what we have with what they have. 

I pretty much agree that our natural position is mid champs. But that's historically and football is very different now from the time that brought about that natural position. I'd still be interested to know what clubs you view as having a natural position above ours.

However I see the biggest difference between our views is that you put blind faith in other people's money whilst I put faith in people's achievements.

 

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17 hours ago, Highland Canary said:

The model complements the level of ambition of our supporters perfectly.

Agreed. Supporters get board they deserve. 

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Oh and as to your other point. No I didn't see us winning the league last September but I did think that we were heading in the right direction. I thought Krul was a far better keeper than Mathews. I had been well impressed with Hernandez and Pukki. We absolutely played well for periods in that Leeds game. Our short comings in that game remain now. The previous season we'd played awesome football on occasion and the plan could certainly be seen.

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Christ, I'm amazed this same old argument is still going round and round, and round and round. People with no influence on the Club want the club to spend more money, other people who also have no influence on the very same club, are happy to leave it to those who do have influence on the Club, to do their best for the Club , in a manner that doesn't put the Club at financial peril if things don't work out in the Premier League.  Round and round, round and round. There , I think I've summed up at least Twenty threads ( probably loads more) since our new strategy was announced a year or two back, round and round , round and round.  This is all very boring indeed, I can find humour, and often do, in many situations This  is just boring dull and pointless, mainly because the moaners can't see that they are powerless, as are we all as to what strategy is taken. .....but I doubt it'll stop them moaning., each with their own little" if we had only spent X  I'd be more supportive of  the board / owners/ Smith's etc". Round and round, round and round. What a snorefest.

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22 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Christ, I'm amazed this same old argument is still going round and round, and round and round. People with no influence on the Club want the club to spend more money, other people who also have no influence on the very same club, are happy to leave it to those who do have influence on the Club, to do their best for the Club , in a manner that doesn't put the Club at financial peril if things don't work out in the Premier League.  Round and round, round and round. There , I think I've summed up at least Twenty threads ( probably loads more) since our new strategy was announced a year or two back, round and round , round and round.  This is all very boring indeed, I can find humour, and often do, in many situations This  is just boring dull and pointless, mainly because the moaners can't see that they are powerless, as are we all as to what strategy is taken. .....but I doubt it'll stop them moaning., each with their own little" if we had only spent X  I'd be more supportive of  the board / owners/ Smith's etc". Round and round, round and round. What a snorefest.

Don't. Click. On. It. Then.

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2 minutes ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

Afraid you are spot on far far to many happy to accept mediocrity 

 

Says the man that eats the same dreadful food every home game.........

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11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Don't. Click. On. It. Then.

I shan't ,and I'll really try to avoid any similar  threads (of which there will be many, no doubt as some people dont realise that they are repeating themselves).

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8 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Sooooo hard. It's almost like some people would like us to get relegated and lose to Ipswich, just so they could be proven right with their miserablist musings.

I don’t want us to get relegated, but our current model will leave us exposed to that probability every time we are promoted. It only takes being relegated and then failing to go up at the first chance and suddenly we’re staring at successive seasons in the Champs scrapping around like so many other teams most of whom would have given anything to have the number of chances to establish themselves in the Premier League that we’ve had. And if that first season in the Champs we finish 7th outside the top 6 then will Delia and Co admit that the model can’t fulfil the aims they’ve set and is therefore flawed?

As for the Ipswich comment, maybe a bit much. But humans are allowed to have emotions and since my football team is losing I’m allowed to be a tad melodramatic! We’re a positively neutral bunch compared to fans of other clubs, some more and some less successful than us.

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Every "model" is self sustaining until something goes wrong and it all goes t*ts up.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Making Plans

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19 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I don’t want us to get relegated, but our current model will leave us exposed to that probability every time we are promoted. It only takes being relegated and then failing to go up at the first chance and suddenly we’re staring at successive seasons in the Champs scrapping around like so many other teams most of whom would have given anything to have the number of chances to establish themselves in the Premier League that we’ve had. And if that first season in the Champs we finish 7th outside the top 6 then will Delia and Co admit that the model can’t fulfil the aims they’ve set and is therefore flawed?

As for the Ipswich comment, maybe a bit much. But humans are allowed to have emotions and since my football team is losing I’m allowed to be a tad melodramatic! We’re a positively neutral bunch compared to fans of other clubs, some more and some less successful than us.

I agree with your first sentence.

A lot of these arguments are cyclical depending on which angle you approach them from, but there's an obvious flipside to your second sentence: namely, it's nigh on impossible to 'establish' yourself in the Premier League, even if you have a ton of money. How long constitutes being 'established'? It's not impossible to have a long spell: Palace at the moment, Stoke until recently, Southampton and Watford (both of whom are in grave danger), Leicester being the obvious 'model of best practice'. But all these clubs have wealthy owners.

The reality of this ownership is that we can't (and shouldn't) risk imprudent spending. The 'Webber model' is two and a half seasons old, and when you consider what a parlous state the club and its finances were in when he took over, we surely have to regard our current situation as a success. Let's be grateful that we have Webber and Farke; if they leave and/or the success evaporates, of course the goodwill will run dry and the fans may start to protest. Until that point, though, I think we should be relieved that we are where we are, considering how things could have gone with no investment and nothing to spend.

And of course everyone's allowed emotions. I'm a hugely emotional bloke! It's just being in control of your emotions sufficiently to allow yourself to see both sides of the coin and not let your impulses run amok. It's especially tough to do that when you have to keep watching your team losing.

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2 hours ago, Herman said:

Says the man that eats the same dreadful food every home game.........

I have to admit I do ask myself the same question every home game but for some reason carry on doing it

makes no sense 

  • Haha 1

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1 minute ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

I have to admit I do ask myself the same question every home game but for some reason carry on doing it

makes no sense 

I am told mushy peas are now included in the price.

  • Like 1

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I don't get the criticism of Delia and Michael - surely they can't spend money they don't have? Or is the argument that they are actively blocking investment that could be used to make us more successful on the pitch? If so what's the evidence for that?

I suspect like a lot of celebrities rather than pure business people Delia is fairly risk averse and likely feels more so as she gets older and her and Michael look to pass on the club to nephew Tom. I can't see them taking any financial risks that could leave the club in a difficult position.

It's true that the mood music from Carrow Road has been significantly different this time around with Webber pushing the 'lowest transfer spend in the league' line literally within minutes of promotion being secured. Expectations have been well and truly lowered and nobody at the club thinks relegation will be "worse than death" this time.

Personally I'm philosophical about it and while I'd have loved the board to have backed Webber with a bit more cash in the Summer to give us more of a chance we've had some fantastic success in recent years. Far more so than many bigger clubs with bigger budgets and richer owners and if we're going to criticize Delia for not spending we have to also give her credit for the successes.

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3 minutes ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

I have to admit I do ask myself the same question every home game but for some reason carry on doing it

makes no sense 

Much like the majority of your ramblings... 😄

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2 minutes ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

1 less bit of scampi shrink flation 

From what I've heard, a bit of 'shrinkflation' probably wouldn't be the worst idea...

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21 hours ago, Peanuts said:

I don't get the criticism of Delia and Michael - surely they can't spend money they don't have? Or is the argument that they are actively blocking investment that could be used to make us more successful on the pitch? If so what's the evidence for that?

I suspect like a lot of celebrities rather than pure business people Delia is fairly risk averse and likely feels more so as she gets older and her and Michael look to pass on the club to nephew Tom. I can't see them taking any financial risks that could leave the club in a difficult position.

It's true that the mood music from Carrow Road has been significantly different this time around with Webber pushing the 'lowest transfer spend in the league' line literally within minutes of promotion being secured. Expectations have been well and truly lowered and nobody at the club thinks relegation will be "worse than death" this time.

Personally I'm philosophical about it and while I'd have loved the board to have backed Webber with a bit more cash in the Summer to give us more of a chance we've had some fantastic success in recent years. Far more so than many bigger clubs with bigger budgets and richer owners and if we're going to criticize Delia for not spending we have to also give her credit for the successes.

The club has far more potential than is being realised by the Socialists.

This potential will never be realised until there are new owners with new money and a new vision that includes significant ongoing investment in players and infrastructure.

Anything less means falling further and further behind our competitors.

The Socialists have tried to reinvent the club on a number of occasions, but without money.

There are limits as to what can be achieved without money and the current league position reflects just that.

The Socialists need to overcome this notion that there is no trustworthy person out there who can take the club to the next level. 

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2 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Stuff

What reason did they give for turning down your offer to purchase the club?

  • Haha 2

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19 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

What reason did they give for turning down your offer to purchase the club?

The boy Tom, silly.

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Anyway......the first deadline for season ticket renewal will soon be upon us.....We (although it ain't over until the larger lady sings) then may have a rough idea whether we'll still be playing Prem footy.....or not..... 😮 

 

I wonder if the club are thinking of putting the ST prices up?...... 😯

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On 09/12/2019 at 08:27, Canary Wundaboy said:

Enough of the fans will swallow and defend the model as long as there’s some success. The odd promotion, a half-hearted attempt at PL survival etc. Let’s see if the model survives a few years being stuck in the Champs when the fans are fed up with mediocrity and we finally lose to Ipswich.

I’d say this sums up the current situation!

apathy is Delia’s ally! 

well said Canary Wunderboy

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