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Self-sustaining model

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2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The model is about them retaining ownership of the club. It’s necessary because of that. I agree it’s not about success on the pitch. 

That's the cynical old hack view. Some of us believe that they are doing this for the long term benefit of the club rather than for themselves.

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56 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

The 'model' is about financial stability, not success on the pitch. As long as people are prepared to come through the turnstiles you can run a financially viable football club as well in the Championship or League One as you can in the Premier League.

We buy young, underrated and/or undervalued players, coach them to play in an attractive technical style that is both entertaining to watch and makes them attractive to bigger clubs and then hope to sell them on for a profit. That's the model. It's nothing to do with being successful in the Premier League.

If you haven't got hundreds of millions to buy technical players with real quality then you need to build a more modest squad that plays a more industrial style of football to have a chance of staying up and that's not what we set out to do.

You’ve articulated my issue pretty well Peanuts, I have no issue with the model personally, I actually understand and fully buy into it. My issue is with all the finances of the PL behind us for at least this year plus parachute payments why did we fail to follow the model and do the highlighted?

We added an international forward with a dubious injury record and a previously stellar rated defender with a similarly poor injury record.

Both in my estimations were good additions and fit the model. Why did we only achieve 2 permanent first team signings?

We spent a sizeable if not majority of our transfer budget on three players who arguably aren’t helping us stay in this league so far and have no future value to us. 2 have barely featured, one of them is a goalkeeper we spent more on a loan fee for than most of our transfer business of the last two years, the third jury’s out on whether he’s actually an improvement on our longest serving player. If we hadn’t had a crisis at CB he too would have probably barely featured.

How did we follow the model this transfer window exactly? That’s my issue

Edited by Monty13

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3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

How did we follow the model this transfer window exactly? That’s my issue

We did sign several players for the under 23s and all I can think of is the club are looking more than a couple of years ahead. I agree it would have been nice to have tried to sign a few more players who could impact the first team but I expect we're back to the fact that promotion was seen as an unexpected bonus and the owners didn't want to commit significant funds to try and stay in the Premier League, preferring to accept a possible/likely relegation and maintain financial security for the future.

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Just now, Peanuts said:

We did sign several players for the under 23s and all I can think of is the club are looking more than a couple of years ahead. I agree it would have been nice to have tried to sign a few more players who could impact the first team but I expect we're back to the fact that promotion was seen as an unexpected bonus and the owners didn't want to commit significant funds to try and stay in the Premier League, preferring to accept a possible/likely relegation and maintain financial security for the future.

I’m totally ok with all the U23 signings, all good moves in terms of low fees, low future risk, good business.

My issue is I’m totally fine with the club being a yo-yo club, financially prudent and knowing that the most likely outcome of the season was a hard fought relegation, but if so why spend the majority of our 1st team money on loans? 

Either you invest enough to make staying up a real possibility, in which case why not get a couple of loans to bolster that. Or you invest all the money in players for the future.

We did neither, that’s why I’m personally frustrated. You can’t have it both ways.

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6 hours ago, Making Plans said:

There is absolutely no point in getting promotion if you are not going to give it a go.

And that means spending money.

I can only assume that the owners are only really happy when we are a mid table Club in the Champs with no danger of either getting promotion or being relegated.

Yes, in our circumstances there is.

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48 minutes ago, Herman said:

That's the cynical old hack view. Some of us believe that they are doing this for the long term benefit of the club rather than for themselves.

They are not doing it for themselves for “financial gain” I agree. They may be doing it partly out of an emotional tie to and willingness to part with their club though! 

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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

They are not doing it for themselves for “financial gain” I agree. They may be doing it partly out of an emotional tie to and willingness to part with their club though! 

I like to imagine they are doing it specifically to pee you off Jimbo. 

I can just see them logging on here when they get home to see what your latest tirade is. 

We had the agm just over a week ago and nobody voiced any of your multitude of criticisms. Wynnie was voted back in unopposed.

I have sympathy with how you feel though. The owners are a million miles away from your ideas of how to run the club. Do you think we'd have been better if they had been more onboard with you? Or have they done an amazing job without you?

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

That's the cynical old hack view. Some of us believe that they are doing this for the long term benefit of the club rather than for themselves.

My concern is the lines between best for the club and best for the Smith family has become too blurred.

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8 minutes ago, king canary said:

My concern is the lines between best for the club and best for the Smith family has become too blurred.

Kinda handy then isn't it that they own the Club. Symbiotic relationship I think it's called.

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6 minutes ago, king canary said:

My concern is the lines between best for the club and best for the Smith family has become too blurred.

I dont think thats the case nor do I think it ever has been. Especially since what's best for the Smith family would be to sell the club to any old top bidder and not have to deal with unappreciative fans giving them stick all whilst making an absolute fortune in the process, rather than leaving the wealth within the club.

I'm not sure how trying to sustain a football club and allow it to operate without the requirement of a random billionaire having full control and pumping money in left right and centre is anything other than trying to do what's best for the longevity of the club. The desperation by some to try and make out our owners are more interested in keeping the club in their "greedy hands" than the wellbeing of the club itself is so far off the mark it would be funny if it wasnt for the massive hypocrisy that most of the same people would flog the club to any bloke with enough cash to wave around.

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You're making them sound like a trumpian dystopian dynasty. I don't see that myself. 😀

I get the feeling that they simply want to leave the club in as healthy and viable a position as possible. Yes the results aren't going well but financially and behind the scenes, we are doing well.

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5 hours ago, Highland Canary said:

The model complements the level of ambition of our supporters perfectly.

The ambition of supporters far far outweighs that of the owners and their self financing model. I can remember the day the outrage when the likes of Sutton, Reeves and others was met with absolute horror by supporters. Now all of a sudden selling your best assets is the way forward?!

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38 minutes ago, king canary said:

My concern is the lines between best for the club and best for the Smith family has become too blurred.

28 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I dont think thats the case nor do I think it ever has been. Especially since what's best for the Smith family would be to sell the club to any old top bidder and not have to deal with unappreciative fans giving them stick all whilst making an absolute fortune in the process, rather than leaving the wealth within the club.

I'm not sure how trying to sustain a football club and allow it to operate without the requirement of a random billionaire having full control and pumping money in left right and centre is anything other than trying to do what's best for the longevity of the club. The desperation by some to try and make out our owners are more interested in keeping the club in their "greedy hands" than the wellbeing of the club itself is so far off the mark it would be funny if it wasnt for the massive hypocrisy that most of the same people would flog the club to any bloke with enough cash to wave around.

Edit: sorry a bit quick on the trigger! What I meant to say before posting a blank post was....

The reality is that yes, what’s best for the owners of the club and what’s best for the club will be blurred. If we plummet down the leagues, crowds dwindle, TV money dwindles and everything else goes belly up, how do the Smiths benefit? 
 

Have to agree with Hogesar’s post above.
 

When we were in a financial mess, they didn’t know how to run a football club apparently. Now they’re doing things differently to try and stop it happening again, and....they should be making the same mistakes in a gamble to keep us up? It’s just any excuse to have a moan at the owners (not specifically aimed at you there KC - I know that’s not the point you’re quite making, but others are).

Edited by Aggy

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1 minute ago, Aggy said:

 

You sincerely believe the model being followed isn’t for the benefit of the owners and their nephew! If you are as happy as they are in simply attempting to sustain a football club then you deserve one another.

isn't ANY sport about being competitive, and winning. Obviously not!

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Just now, City 2nd said:

You sincerely believe the model being followed isn’t for the benefit of the owners and their nephew! If you are as happy as they are in simply attempting to sustain a football club then you deserve one another.

isn't ANY sport about being competitive, and winning. Obviously not!

Not sure if you quoted this before I’d “edited” my post above (I clicked submit somehow before typing anything other than the quotes). But if after I’d edited, then I’ve literally said that the benefit of the owners is intrinsically tied in with the benefit of the club (unless people are claiming they are funnelling all the money out underhandedly).

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

That's the cynical old hack view. Some of us believe that they are doing this for the long term benefit of the club rather than for themselves.

Isnt it rather convenient that its the only model that fits in with the capacity of their wallet though?

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1 minute ago, BarclayWazza said:

Isnt it rather convenient that its the only model that fits in with the capacity of their wallet though?

So they should run the club beyond their means?

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

My concern is the lines between best for the club and best for the Smith family has become too blurred.

I have never understood this. Financially the best thing for the Smith family would be to sell the club for as much money as possible, with the bonus  of getting out from under the stress of running something so public as a football club.

PS. Just seen - too many posts to read when you're intent on binge-watching The Good Place (a programme  I didn't know existed until yesterday) - that Hogesar had already made these points.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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12 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So they should run the club beyond their means?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that 🙄

Seeing as I have to state the obvious, they've stated they are not selling the club, they are by far the poorest owners in the Premier League and this unwillingness to sell means this model is a necessity to the detriment of the potential of the club in the hands of an owner with money.

They've played an absolute blinder in convincing large parts of the fan base that this is the best the club can hope for, that it's a good thing that we spent next to no money over the summer and how following a couple of decent results that still leave us in the bottom 3 that all is all of a sudden ok.  The club is brimming with saleable assets so I absolutely fail to see how spending a bit of money sensibly over the summer would have been disastrous. The only reason I can think of is that they simply did not have the money. If that's the case then please make way for someone that does.

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25 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that 🙄

Seeing as I have to state the obvious, they've stated they are not selling the club, they are by far the poorest owners in the Premier League and this unwillingness to sell means this model is a necessity to the detriment of the potential of the club in the hands of an owner with money.

They've played an absolute blinder in convincing large parts of the fan base that this is the best the club can hope for, that it's a good thing that we spent next to no money over the summer and how following a couple of decent results that still leave us in the bottom 3 that all is all of a sudden ok.  The club is brimming with saleable assets so I absolutely fail to see how spending a bit of money sensibly over the summer would have been disastrous. The only reason I can think of is that they simply did not have the money. If that's the case then please make way for someone that does.

So after promotion this year, what should they have done? Sold the club in July?

And I’ve mentioned Forest elsewhere. Their rich investors spent 13.5mil on a midfielder in the championship. Presumably that’s what you’re advocating (8 years of mid table mediocrity in the championship but money to spend on players)?

Edited by Aggy

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It's quite easy to see what Wazza was advocating in the championship. You only have to look to last September.

Tell me whats wrong with what i said... we could beat Middlesborough and you could mock the OP but the fact is we are going backwards. We are having to suffer this type of football because Delia wants to keep control and barring a miraculous change it looks like our natural position is bottom half of the Championship. I cant believe anyone can be satisfied with this, plus the dire, turgid football we''ve had to watch recently.
 
Embarrassing. 

image.gif

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9 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So after promotion this year, what should they have done? Sold the club in July?

And I’ve mentioned Forest elsewhere. Their rich investors spent 13.5mil on a midfielder in the championship. Presumably that’s what you’re advocating (8 years of mid table mediocrity in the championship but money to spend on players)?

Any stage over the last 10 years or so when it's become blatantly obvious that someone with a personal fortune of c.£20m is vastly underfunded to be anywhere near a top flight football club.

I cant work out whether you're stupid or for some unfathomable reason trying to deflect by making a ridiculous comment. I've got absolutely no time for whatabouttery - yes there are a bunch of teams with money that we are doing better than but it's also plainly true that there are a bunch of teams with money that are doing a lot better than us.  The measure that we should be concerning ourselves with is our potential with a comparatively poor owner at the helm and our potential with someone who can stick £40m in at the start of the season.

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15 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It's quite easy to see what Wazza was advocating in the championship. You only have to look to last September.

Tell me whats wrong with what i said... we could beat Middlesborough and you could mock the OP but the fact is we are going backwards. We are having to suffer this type of football because Delia wants to keep control and barring a miraculous change it looks like our natural position is bottom half of the Championship. I cant believe anyone can be satisfied with this, plus the dire, turgid football we''ve had to watch recently.
 
Embarrassing. 

image.gif

"Barring a miraculous change" - anyone who predicted the turnaround after the start we had last season can give me a call because I could use a lottery win just before Christmas! 

My belief has always been that under Delia, we've got a glass ceiling to our potential that sits around the area of PL survival (I know you like spending your time searching through my post history so you'll likely find comments to that effect in there) and I think the way this season is going so far that this is being proven correct.

Of course I'd be delighted if things have changed in such a way that you feel the need to drag this post up again in 15 months time and call me embarrassing.

Edited by BarclayWazza

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23 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

"Barring a miraculous change" - anyone who predicted the turnaround after the start we had last season can give me a call because I could use a lottery win just before Christmas! 

My belief has always been that under Delia, we've got a glass ceiling to our potential that sits around the area of PL survival (I know you like spending your time searching through my post history so you'll likely find comments to that effect in there) and I think the way this season is going so far that this is being proven correct.

Of course I'd be delighted if things have changed in such a way that you feel the need to drag this post up again in 15 months time and call me embarrassing.

You still believe it's miraculous. You saw nothing leading up to that date to suggest we could be competitive. You only saw dire turgid football.

I find that hard to believe. I honestly do. Do you believe in other miraculous things? 

You reckon I search your post history. You think I don't have a memory of what others post to me? 

It's even more embarrassing that you've never given any credit to the owners for their successes. You just move seamlessly to the next time there's a bad run and start up again. 

Your belief was that this glass ceiling would keep us in the bottom half of the championship. 15 months later and your glass ceiling gas shot up further and quicker than the great glass elevator.

Like you I'm not interested in whataboutery especially over mythical owners that are being somehow prevented from spending their money to please you.

If you get your lottery win it won't make you happy. I guarantee it. You'll always want more money. You won't enjoy the money you have and the success it brings. You'll just decide you'd be happier with someone else's money and justify that as some sort of warped ambition.

 

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8 hours ago, hogesar said:

I dont think thats the case nor do I think it ever has been. Especially since what's best for the Smith family would be to sell the club to any old top bidder and not have to deal with unappreciative fans giving them stick all whilst making an absolute fortune in the process, rather than leaving the wealth within the club.

I'm not sure how trying to sustain a football club and allow it to operate without the requirement of a random billionaire having full control and pumping money in left right and centre is anything other than trying to do what's best for the longevity of the club. The desperation by some to try and make out our owners are more interested in keeping the club in their "greedy hands" than the wellbeing of the club itself is so far off the mark it would be funny if it wasnt for the massive hypocrisy that most of the same people would flog the club to any bloke with enough cash to wave around.

By 'what is best for the Smiths' I mean the desire to pass the club on to their nephew. The self financing model is as much about clearing the way for Tom Smith to take over than anything. 

Your post shows exactly what I mean- it's just accepted that the continued ownership of the Smith family is automatically what is best for the club, no consideration of the idea the club could go further without this artificial glass ceiling in place, which is 100% for the benefit of passing the club down through the family.

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

By 'what is best for the Smiths' I mean the desire to pass the club on to their nephew. The self financing model is as much about clearing the way for Tom Smith to take over than anything. 

Your post shows exactly what I mean- it's just accepted that the continued ownership of the Smith family is automatically what is best for the club, no consideration of the idea the club could go further without this artificial glass ceiling in place, which is 100% for the benefit of passing the club down through the family.

How does it show that? I have no idea what's the next best thing for the club. I also have done nothing to stop any other potential buyers from coming forwards. As a fan I'm more than willing to listen to what any new potential owners have to say. They just either dont exist or dont seem to want to speak...

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11 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Yet the Sloughbottom wonder, Cantwell (who in fairness conjured up our only chance 2nd half), and a left back were our Farke's answer to saving the game.

Cantwell is our 2nd highest goal scorer and I get the Lewis change, as Hernandez had come off and there was zero pace on the left

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14 hours ago, king canary said:

That's my take on it too. It shouldn't be beyond the club to spend £25-30m in a summer without risking the future, especially if you've got faith in Webber's ability to recruit.

The 25-30 million players we have bought will almost certainly want silly money in their contracts too. Its easy to double the transfer fee outlay with the players wages wants.

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14 minutes ago, duke63 said:

The 25-30 million players we have bought will almost certainly want silly money in their contracts too. Its easy to double the transfer fee outlay with the players wages wants.

But this is where the trust in Webber comes in- smarter recruiting of players that can be moved on in the event of relegation- ie not giving long term, expensive contracts to 29 year old midfielders who don't want to be here or already injured wingers ala Neil/McNally.

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Enough of the fans will swallow and defend the model as long as there’s some success. The odd promotion, a half-hearted attempt at PL survival etc. Let’s see if the model survives a few years being stuck in the Champs when the fans are fed up with mediocrity and we finally lose to Ipswich.

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