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sgncfc

Using youth as an excuse

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Can we please put this to bed once and for all? Our squad is not particularly young - the average age is 27 which puts us 11th in the PL. The teams we play are not young in comparison to others.  Southampton's average age is 25.6. Djenepo is 21; Holjberg 23. Most of their midfielders are 25 or under. We have one 19 year old and two 21 year olds as regulars - so does pretty much every other team.

I am so tired of hearing how our young players will learn and they should be forgiven and understood etc etc.  Farke trots that out almost every time they get bullied (which has happened about 10 times already this season) It is nonsense. The issue is whether our players, however old they are, are good enough to play at this level - at the moment they're not, otherwise we wouldn't be second from bottom.

The simple fact is that we are not competing with the more physical teams - which is most of them. If we don't do that we don't get a chance to play the style that Farke wants us to play. It is nothing whatsoever to do with how young our players are, and this is a classic case of an argument being generally accepted without any actual evidence, simply because people keep saying it.

 

 

 

 

 

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I replied to a Paddy Davitt post match interview quote from Farke saying the same...three players in the starting lineup were young (Aarons, Cantwell, Godfrey). The rest were mid twenties (upwards) and had amassed a lot of game time and subsequent experience.

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Very astute (and correct) post. Farke does (regularly) trot out this tired old argument but it's widely accepted 'as gospel' simply because 'he' said it. Of course Godfrey has had more responsibility on his shoulders due to the other centre backs all being injured at the same time and he has had to play alongside make shift partners as a result. Even more so at a time when he would probably have been rested due to his own injury!

That said, at NO point during this so called 'injury crisis' has Farke HAD to give debuts to any youngsters. EVERY first eleven for EVERY league match has been made up of first team squad players. The 'young team'  argument might have carried some merit if Farke had been compelled to give a number of them debuts and nearly always put two or three on the bench and brought them on. That has not happened.   

Unfortunately the media (be it Chris Goreham on Radio Norfolk or the Archant reporters) fall for this fallacy from Farke and merely regurgitate it as 'truth' which it isn't.  

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Can we please put this to bed once and for all? Our squad is not particularly young - the average age is 27 which puts us 11th in the PL. The teams we play are not young in comparison to others.  Southampton's average age is 25.6. Djenepo is 21; Holjberg 23. Most of their midfielders are 25 or under. We have one 19 year old and two 21 year olds as regulars - so does pretty much every other team.

I am so tired of hearing how our young players will learn and they should be forgiven and understood etc etc.  Farke trots that out almost every time they get bullied (which has happened about 10 times already this season) It is nonsense. The issue is whether our players, however old they are, are good enough to play at this level - at the moment they're not, otherwise we wouldn't be second from bottom.

The simple fact is that we are not competing with the more physical teams - which is most of them. If we don't do that we don't get a chance to play the style that Farke wants us to play. It is nothing whatsoever to do with how young our players are, and this is a classic case of an argument being generally accepted without any actual evidence, simply because people keep saying it.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone except our Board knows that doing well in the EFL has no bearing at all on likely performance in the EPL. Everyone should know by now that you have to buy a whole new team for the EPL as this league is a whole new ball game, literally and metaphorically. 

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26 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Very astute (and correct) post. Farke does (regularly) trot out this tired old argument but it's widely accepted 'as gospel' simply because 'he' said it. Of course Godfrey has had more responsibility on his shoulders due to the other centre backs all being injured at the same time and he has had to play alongside make shift partners as a result. Even more so at a time when he would probably have been rested due to his own injury!

That said, at NO point during this so called 'injury crisis' has Farke HAD to give debuts to any youngsters. EVERY first eleven for EVERY league match has been made up of first team squad players. The 'young team'  argument might have carried some merit if Farke had been compelled to give a number of them debuts and nearly always put two or three on the bench and brought them on. That has not happened.   

Unfortunately the media (be it Chris Goreham on Radio Norfolk or the Archant reporters) fall for this fallacy from Farke and merely regurgitate it as 'truth' which it isn't.  

A very accurate post from start to finish mate but the painful truth of it will be wasted on those who will indulge in the tired poster bashing routine which happens when some do not sing from the approved hymn sheet.

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5 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

A very accurate post from start to finish mate but the painful truth of it will be wasted on those who will indulge in the tired poster bashing routine which happens when some do not sing from the approved hymn sheet.

So it is true that Delia pays posters to come on here and have a bash at those posters who do not sing from her hymm sheet. 

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46 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

So it is true that Delia pays posters to come on here and have a bash at those posters who do not sing from her hymm sheet. 

I thought Delia had no money?

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1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

I thought Delia had no money?

Delia has more money than most in these parts so can easily buy them off. 

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Just now, Big Vince said:

Delia has more money than most in these parts so can easily buy them off. 

I actually quite admire your commitment to the fantasy world you live in. You're metronomic in your predictability, I'll give you that.

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1 hour ago, Big Vince said:

Everyone except our Board knows that doing well in the EFL has no bearing at all on likely performance in the EPL. Everyone should know by now that you have to buy a whole new team for the EPL as this league is a whole new ball game, literally and metaphorically. 

And even then that is no guarantee of surviving in  the EPL. My personal opinion is that you need to spend a bit on the right sort of players to supplement what you have got, rather than spend £100M + on a complete new team and still get relegated.........

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The reasons are clear why we are having problems and yes, that some of the players are young is one of those.  The many injuries we had put a burden on Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Buendia and Cantwell.  That is as clear as you like and if you think that Godfrey found it easy playing PL football with an injury while having no experienced CB next to him then you are deluded. If you don't recognise that two young and inexperienced players in Cantwell and Buendia had more game time forced on them than they might have had because of the injuries to midfielders, then you are deluded.

Furthermore, when a young player is fed into to a bigger well established PL club, he is likely to be able to do so more easily because he is going into a PL experienced set up.  We have a whole squad of inexperienced players so that makes the process harder for our youngsters.

This is clear and obvious, if you have a mind to see it.

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3 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Can we please put this to bed once and for all? Our squad is not particularly young - the average age is 27 which puts us 11th in the PL. The teams we play are not young in comparison to others.  Southampton's average age is 25.6. Djenepo is 21; Holjberg 23. Most of their midfielders are 25 or under. We have one 19 year old and two 21 year olds as regulars - so does pretty much every other team.

I am so tired of hearing how our young players will learn and they should be forgiven and understood etc etc.  Farke trots that out almost every time they get bullied (which has happened about 10 times already this season) It is nonsense. The issue is whether our players, however old they are, are good enough to play at this level - at the moment they're not, otherwise we wouldn't be second from bottom.

The simple fact is that we are not competing with the more physical teams - which is most of them. If we don't do that we don't get a chance to play the style that Farke wants us to play. It is nothing whatsoever to do with how young our players are, and this is a classic case of an argument being generally accepted without any actual evidence, simply because people keep saying it.

 

 

 

 

 

Agree entirely. 

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Just wondered if something is being lost in translation with Farke? Our team is young in terms of Premier league experience.

The Soton back four have an average of 26 but between them have 370 appearences (rough figures from internet search) for their team hence bags of experience.

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Well this season our team has regularly had:

- Aarons

- Cantwell

- Lewis

- Buendia

- Godfrey

in it. Then with the rest, we're still talking very limited premier league experience, Tettey and Krul excluded. 

Quite regularly 3 of our back 4 have been 21 or under and playing their first ever season at this level.

To decide now that because we're losing this is no longer the case is quite simply bizarre. Did you mention this at the start of the season?

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Of course Farke is right.

Our young players amount to three of the back four for example. 19, 19 and 21. That is unheard of. Nevertheless few of us would argue that Aarons, Lewis and Godfrey should not be in the team. 
 

They are learning - and rapidly increasing in value as assets - on the job. We have almost no Premier League experience regardless of age. 

It is very much like comparing injury stats. 5 injuries might be comparable statistically to other clubs, but if that includes your three centre back and two first choice goalkeepers (for example), then it is not comparable to 5 injuries spread across a squad of positions.
 

So it is with where our youth is unusually concentrated. You may argue that Teams historically tend towards younger attackers and older defenders. You may argue that there is psychological and experience-based benefits to this allocation. You didn’t.
 

None of these factors equate to our players being good enough to compete and survive at this level however. That is an entirely different frustration which may cause the reaching for simplistic criticisms. 

Parma

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3 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Can we please put this to bed once and for all? Our squad is not particularly young - the average age is 27 which puts us 11th in the PL. The teams we play are not young in comparison to others.  Southampton's average age is 25.6. Djenepo is 21; Holjberg 23. Most of their midfielders are 25 or under. We have one 19 year old and two 21 year olds as regulars - so does pretty much every other team.

I am so tired of hearing how our young players will learn and they should be forgiven and understood etc etc.  Farke trots that out almost every time they get bullied (which has happened about 10 times already this season) It is nonsense. The issue is whether our players, however old they are, are good enough to play at this level - at the moment they're not, otherwise we wouldn't be second from bottom.

The simple fact is that we are not competing with the more physical teams - which is most of them. If we don't do that we don't get a chance to play the style that Farke wants us to play. It is nothing whatsoever to do with how young our players are, and this is a classic case of an argument being generally accepted without any actual evidence, simply because people keep saying it.

 

 

 

 

 

Why do people need to look for an excuse to excuse the excuse of our excuses

Edited by Van wink

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"If you don't recognise that two young and inexperienced players in Cantwell and Buendia had more game time forced on them than they might have had because of the injuries to midfielders, then you are deluded."

Disagree with this comment, These two players are very creative and integral to Farke's way of playing. In terms of the three behind Pukki, we only have Hernandez, Stiepi and McLean (lately) that can play there. Outside that, we have Roberts (who isn't upto it), Leitner (number ten I think not) and Vrancic (also not suited that far forward). Cantwell's progress has surprised everyone (bar Farke I'd imagine) but Buendia was expected to be a main player this season. We don't have a big squad at all, so it was always likely we'd be playing the two above regardless of injuries.

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38 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Of course Farke is right.

Our young players amount to three of the back four for example. 19, 19 and 21. That is unheard of. Nevertheless few of us would argue that Aarons, Lewis and Godfrey should not be in the team. 
 

They are learning - and rapidly increasing in value as assets - on the job. We have almost no Premier League experience regardless of age. 

It is very much like comparing injury stats. 5 injuries might be comparable statistically to other clubs, but if that includes your three centre back and two first choice goalkeepers (for example), then it is not comparable to 5 injuries spread across a squad of positions.
 

So it is with where our youth is unusually concentrated. You may argue that Teams historically tend towards younger attackers and older defenders. You may argue that there is psychological and experience-based benefits to this allocation. You didn’t.
 

None of these factors equate to our players being good enough to compete and survive at this level however. That is an entirely different frustration which may cause the reaching for simplistic criticisms. 

Parma

Now that's what I call a very accurate post from start to finish.

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58 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Now that's what I call a very accurate post from start to finish.

Yep. Great post (as usual) from Parma.

Whod have thought someone with proper experience in football posts the most sensible opinions on...uhh...football?

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2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Of course Farke is right.

Our young players amount to three of the back four for example. 19, 19 and 21. That is unheard of. Nevertheless few of us would argue that Aarons, Lewis and Godfrey should not be in the team. 
 

They are learning - and rapidly increasing in value as assets - on the job. We have almost no Premier League experience regardless of age. 

It is very much like comparing injury stats. 5 injuries might be comparable statistically to other clubs, but if that includes your three centre back and two first choice goalkeepers (for example), then it is not comparable to 5 injuries spread across a squad of positions.
 

So it is with where our youth is unusually concentrated. You may argue that Teams historically tend towards younger attackers and older defenders. You may argue that there is psychological and experience-based benefits to this allocation. You didn’t.
 

None of these factors equate to our players being good enough to compete and survive at this level however. That is an entirely different frustration which may cause the reaching for simplistic criticisms. 

Parma

Er - Jamal Lewis and Ben Godfrey are BOTH 21 (in fact they are 22 in a few weeks time).

Farke has specifically mentioned 'our young players', 'such a young team' etc. That is what the OP was rightly taking issue with. The lack of PL experience is there for all to see and on that point I agree with you. 

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That's it though isn't it, the issue isn't youth, it's inexperience, there's no doubt we have some very decent young players, with little or no experience of the environment they are now playing in, give it time as the squad, I believe, will remain largely intact whether we stay up or not. For sure, a few will go, and arrive ,and we will improve, maybe too slowly for some but it is the development of the club as a whole that is the focus, the first team is the Flagship but the academy and the scouting department are the engine room. 

An example of experience in the Premier League was the way Alex Tettey influenced the game when he came on,  he was briefed , for sure, as was but unlike Ibrahim, he knew exactly what to expect in that midfield and what to do in there. I'm not knocking Amadou, I just thought he was a little caught out by the speed of the midfield tussle, he'll get it soon I hope ,as he's been decent so far . We've seen more of him as a stopper in midfield , rather than the boss that Alex was when he came on. The same comparison could be made between Sam Byram and Jamal, I have no gripe with Jamal but SB looks more 'at home ' on the pitch , I think ,down to experience, which Jamal will get , it's been a sharp rise for the lad in the last year or so. As with Amadou , I don't doubt his ability.

As an add on regarding the Farke/ Young players thing, I think all he's saying is that with so many young and inexperienced players in the squad, everyone has to be at the top of their game for it to work. ...... otherwise it can look shambolic, as it did for half an hour before half time the other night. That's all, not excuses, reasons.

Edited by wcorkcanary

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Said it before and I’ll say it again but imo  Godfrey would have been far more valuable for the team this season as a defensive midfielder allowing an older, more experienced centre back to partner Zimmermann (klose, injuries aside) Yes Farke believes centre back is his best position and I’m sure he’s right but that back four is too young and inexperienced for this level. They are all superb players individually and have all stepped up to show they are capable at this level but as a combined back four it just doesn’t work. 

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My two penneth of the issues. Apologies in advance for the rambling.....

Team Selection.

I really don't think Farke knows what his best team is and is slow in discovering it. We must also grasp that this is almost exactly the same team/squad that won the Championship but conceded lots of goals in the process. Many a game we marginally won last season we marginally lose this against better, sharper opposition! More recently even when we are on top we seem unable to unpick a packed and organized defence - a lack of creativity somewhere.

Goal Keeper - Excellent - no concerns

Defence - Certainly had our injuries (remember the silly Hanley bashing ) but honestly our current back 4/5  (Aarons, Lewis, Byram, Zimm and Godfrey) are no worse than many other EPL sets and frankly getting better. As a fully paid up member of the Defenders Union (I was a LB) - (closely associated the Goal Keeper's one) I think that we are often over critical of the defence - yes any errors here are often punished but that's true in most EPL games not just us. The defence of itself is not our current weakness!

Defensive Midfield.

This is where I think it's gone wrong. We clearly need a 'Destroyer'' - Tettey/Amadou/Trybull (all good) and a deeper insightful PLAYMAKER. Farke has tried Leitner in there but perhaps a bit too slow / lightweight. McLean tries hard again in there but again I don't think that is his position (much better further forward). The obvious unused player is Vrancic - who frankly pulled us over the line last season at the end and only lost his place to McLean due to injury earlier on. Yes we did go on and win a lot of games with McLean in there after Vrancic was injured but from my perspective generally unconvincingly. Vrancic tackles well, had speed of thought to turn defence into attack and was often key in slide-rule passing Pukki in (almost like Tettey did yesterday) but on a regular basis. Also a handful of goals and dead ball specialist. Dangerous lurking from just outside the 18 yard line!

Offensive 

We missed Onel that's true but now he's back keep him in play. He terrifies defences with his pace and directness and for us is an 'out . Emi I think lost his way in the earlier matches but is a real handful too for defenders - and creative. Both Onel and Emi need however to work on the final ball and not overdo things. Marco hustles and bustles but lack composure so far in front of goal at this level. McLean I think so far deserves the No. 10 shirt - and is better aerially than many think. Cantwell - Good, bad and indifferent (again another senseless foul that led to their set piece goal yesterday). I just don't think Cantwell is a game changer - when City are playing well he plays well otherwise he can go awol and becomes a bit light weight. I still see him as a super-sub for Emi or Onel to change things up, freshen tired legs when we need it.

Forward

Pukki - Takes his chances and works tirelessly - but please not as an aerial target for a cross! 

The last part brings me to 'crosses'. We generally score very few from headers due to few 'Grant Holt' style target men. I dread us getting a corner as with our two CBs up as the usual breakaway generally finds us out of position - and again our delivery is never good enough to start with.

Can we also 'shoot' as opposed to try to walk the ball into the net ! That's Vracic again....

So for me I go with for the Blades. 

Krul,

Byram, Zimm, Godfrey, Aarons

Tettey, Vrancic

Onel, McLean, Emi

Pukki.

No complaints swapping in Lewis or Amadou.  

 

Phew

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13 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Of course Farke is right.

Our young players amount to three of the back four for example. 19, 19 and 21. That is unheard of. Nevertheless few of us would argue that Aarons, Lewis and Godfrey should not be in the team. 
 

They are learning - and rapidly increasing in value as assets - on the job. We have almost no Premier League experience regardless of age. 

It is very much like comparing injury stats. 5 injuries might be comparable statistically to other clubs, but if that includes your three centre back and two first choice goalkeepers (for example), then it is not comparable to 5 injuries spread across a squad of positions.
 

So it is with where our youth is unusually concentrated. You may argue that Teams historically tend towards younger attackers and older defenders. You may argue that there is psychological and experience-based benefits to this allocation. You didn’t.
 

None of these factors equate to our players being good enough to compete and survive at this level however. That is an entirely different frustration which may cause the reaching for simplistic criticisms. 

Parma

Increasing in value? One can only hope so! Conceding goals week in, week out, is learning? They are making the same mistakes week after week! Individual performances and collective performances have been very poor. The league table and goals against column state exactly that. 

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The issue is about consistency. What makes the best players is an ability to perform week in and week out. Others of similar skill but who blow a little hot and cold end up in the champs. those with less skill leagues one and two. Bottom line is that you cannot go up to the Premier division and spend only peanuts and expect to finish anywhere but the bottom three saving a minor miracle and a lot of over performance. Our players are, in the main, just short of the required quality and we are therefore being found out. The same batch struggled in the champs the year before last and the defence has never been all that. One wonder season of over performing left many thinking the players are better than they are. That is it in a nutshell. Ask an impartial friend which of our team would be in demand from other clubs in this division as regular starters. Maybe 2 maybe 4 at most. 

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