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15 minutes ago, Harry53 said:

And why is it we cannot defend corners or actually score from corners? We have plenty of opportunities this season from corners but we are rubbish at capitalising on them. 

I'll break this to you very gently..................................

............. we scored from a corner today! 👍

 

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Godfrey isnt that good, comfortable on ball but often beat in air, often out of position, and culpable for a few goals.

Has great potential but £30m we would be crazy to turn down. Would need to get a couple in but proper specialist defenders. Godfrey is still a midfielder playing out of position to me.

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41 minutes ago, glory.win or die. said:

Godfrey isnt that good, comfortable on ball but often beat in air, often out of position, and culpable for a few goals.

Has great potential but £30m we would be crazy to turn down. Would need to get a couple in but proper specialist defenders. Godfrey is still a midfielder playing out of position to me.

Probably too late for him now to switch back to midfield, but I have always thought that he’ll make a decent defender but that he could have made a really good midfielder. We will of course never know, and I’m sure he’ll have a good career anyway, but I do think if he’d have been playing in this team in a holding midfield role along side Tettey (and now perhaps Amadou) for the last season and a half he would have been a real top player. He just tends to get caught out of position a little bit and I think at a higher level you can tell he doesn’t have the natural instincts of a centre back.

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12 hours ago, Aggy said:

Probably too late for him now to switch back to midfield, but I have always thought that he’ll make a decent defender but that he could have made a really good midfielder. We will of course never know, and I’m sure he’ll have a good career anyway, but I do think if he’d have been playing in this team in a holding midfield role along side Tettey (and now perhaps Amadou) for the last season and a half he would have been a real top player. He just tends to get caught out of position a little bit and I think at a higher level you can tell he doesn’t have the natural instincts of a centre back.

See my “ tin hat “ post, glad someone agrees with me

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18 hours ago, Aggy said:

Probably too late for him now to switch back to midfield, but I have always thought that he’ll make a decent defender but that he could have made a really good midfielder. We will of course never know, and I’m sure he’ll have a good career anyway, but I do think if he’d have been playing in this team in a holding midfield role along side Tettey (and now perhaps Amadou) for the last season and a half he would have been a real top player. He just tends to get caught out of position a little bit and I think at a higher level you can tell he doesn’t have the natural instincts of a centre back.

Aggy - 100% agree. Trouble is that because Herr Farke believes the boy will be a 'potentially world class centre back' pretty much all posters are happy to agree. He might still develop that way but it won't be at NCFC and especially not with Farke.

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6 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Aggy - 100% agree. Trouble is that because Herr Farke believes the boy will be a 'potentially world class centre back' pretty much all posters are happy to agree. He might still develop that way but it won't be at NCFC and especially not with Farke.

It's just staggering that you're so prepared to write off a young player of only 21 years age who is already playing week in, week out in the most competitive league in the world and who has already captained his country at Under 21 level. A player who has developed massively in front of our eyes in the last 14 months. 

 

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1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's just staggering that you're so prepared to write off a young player of only 21 years age who is already playing week in, week out in the most competitive league in the world and who has already captained his country at Under 21 level. A player who has developed massively in front of our eyes in the last 14 months. 

 

Who has written him off? Saying he doesn’t look like he’ll develop into a ‘world class’ (yellow rider’s words) or even ‘really good’ (my words) doesn’t mean he’s useless. As per posts above, he’s already a good championship centre back with potential to be a decent premier league centre back.
 

I personally think decent premier league centre back is as far as he’ll go (which is still likely to be more than good enough for us for the foreseeable future!) but that had he played permanently in midfield he might have gone further. Of course that’s based only on rare glimpses of him as a younger midfielder, so we’ll never know. But what I do know is that he isn’t a natural centre back - and it shows a bit at this level. With more experience I hope it will become more second nature to him.

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1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It's just staggering that you're so prepared to write off a young player of only 21 years age who is already playing week in, week out in the most competitive league in the world and who has already captained his country at Under 21 level. A player who has developed massively in front of our eyes in the last 14 months. 

 

Read my post again. Then you will need to eat humble pie. All I've said is that he will not develop into this ....'world class centre back' with us. I have not written his career off . I'm actually more of a fan of Ben that most posters out there but I'm not blind to areas where he needs to step up.    

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12 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Read my post again. Then you will need to eat humble pie. All I've said is that he will not develop into this ....'world class centre back' with us. I have not written his career off . I'm actually more of a fan of Ben that most posters out there but I'm not blind to areas where he needs to step up.    

It's generally agreed on here that the one thing Farke is good at above all else is DEVELOPING players. We have already seen Godfrey develop massively in the last 14 months. Why do you think that he's suddenly going to stop developing any further??  Very few players are at their peak when they are only 21. 

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28 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Who has written him off? Saying he doesn’t look like he’ll develop into a ‘world class’ (yellow rider’s words) or even ‘really good’ (my words) doesn’t mean he’s useless. As per posts above, he’s already a good championship centre back with potential to be a decent premier league centre back.
 

I personally think decent premier league centre back is as far as he’ll go (which is still likely to be more than good enough for us for the foreseeable future!) but that had he played permanently in midfield he might have gone further. Of course that’s based only on rare glimpses of him as a younger midfielder, so we’ll never know. But what I do know is that he isn’t a natural centre back - and it shows a bit at this level. With more experience I hope it will become more second nature to him.

I do accept that it has shown a bit at this level at times this season, but the poor sod was playing with a hernia up until a few weeks ago and his central defensive partners were Hanley, Amadou and Tettey. If you'd watched closely in the four games since Zimmermann came back you would have seen that Ben has looked a much better player overall in those four games. 

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6 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I do accept that it has shown a bit at this level at times this season, but the poor sod was playing with a hernia up until a few weeks ago and his central defensive partners were Hanley, Amadou and Tettey. If you'd watched closely in the four games since Zimmermann came back you would have seen that Ben has looked a much better player overall in those four games. 

I think Farke is a better judge of player than any of us. Youd certainly have to have a big ego to suggest otherwise.

There are, at the moment, some fundamental flaws to his game that YellowRider correctly points out. But it's very easy to forget his is first ever season at this level and is still young, especially in CB terms.

For simplicity, look at John Stones. Look at the money he went for and then consider he is still making those mistakes. Yet he either plays or is on the bench for one of the best teams in world football and is an England International.

To essentially say his ceiling is a half decent prem or champs CB is not only premature anyway, but also jumping to some pretty big conclusions.

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59 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I do accept that it has shown a bit at this level at times this season, but the poor sod was playing with a hernia up until a few weeks ago and his central defensive partners were Hanley, Amadou and Tettey. If you'd watched closely in the four games since Zimmermann came back you would have seen that Ben has looked a much better player overall in those four games. 

Of course it helps to have better players around you - especially ones who can organise the defence as well. I’m not suggesting he’s the reason we’re leaking goals. You could also argue that his style of play would probably suit a bigger club than it would a club scrapping for survival, especially as nowadays defending is almost secondary to those clubs at the top after being able to play it out from the back. 

I should say as well that my reasoning here isn’t just based on looking at his defensive attributes negatively. I think he offers (or could do) a fair bit going forward. I can’t remember the game, but at one point this season I remember him driving forward, popping up on the edge of the box and smashing a decent effort at goal. He can’t do that as a centre back all too often - not as much as he could as a midfielder anyway.

All academic anyway. Too late for him to switch back now. Just hope he works on the defensive side, continues to gain experience and learn. 

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On 08/12/2019 at 20:30, Capt. Pants said:

He's the best of a bad bunch out of our back 4. His distribution is no problem at all, if anything it was Zimbo who was lumping it up. Don't think he did his usual lap round the ground after today's game as like most of the players other than Krul, they were fairly sharpish of the pitch. 50/50 whether he'll be here after January. 

What utter drivel!

we have 3 excellent prospects who will all go on to be established premier league players, they are 19-21 for Pete’s sake.  They will all be better players for this experience but they are probably at the stage we’re they need to be rested for periods and replaced with some experienced guys. Unfortunately we don’t  have them so these guys are literally learning on the job. 

It amazes me the fickle nature of NCFC fans. 

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On 08/12/2019 at 19:27, Thirsty Lizard said:

What on earth are you talking about? He constantly made the right decision when in possession today. If nothing was on he went sideways or backwards and didn't try to force it in a dangerous position - it it was on he passed it forward. I can only remember him giving it away once in the whole game. 

His possession was good today, when he had someone to give it to; his positioning (again!) questionable. Sheffield United tried all game to pull our centre backs out from the middle by overloading the wings and that's the way the equaliser came - both centre backs pulled out of the way to leave Aarons to mark a giant for the header, which was so easy it was embarrassing. You can't just take one aspect of a footballer and make that his measurement of quality. The reason Godfrey is "rated" is because he is English, home grown and could have an easy place in a squad for not a lot of money - plus we consistently massively overrate our "young" English players, but that's another issue.

Newcastle showed how to beat Sheff Utd in midweek - stay compact and in your shape then use pace to counter. We completely lost our shape in the second half; we were all over the place - that happens almost every game, and it falls apart in the middle of the defence first. If I was an opposition coach, I would target getting space down the middle, because we are hopeless down the spine of the team - we were last season, and we still are. That's a management issue - we have the wrong players there and unless we buy/loan 3 or 4 workers in January we have no chance of survival in this league.

Look, I'm not down on Godfrey - he's got some real quality and he's had a hellishly tough start to his PL career with no real support beside him or in front of him; but we need to keep some perspective about him (and Aarons, Lewis and Cantwell for that matter). If they are £30m players, why have we got 11 points from 16 games and conceding 2 goals every game?

They were awesome last season - but the step up has just been too big for them so far. They need a rest; Cantwell benefited from one; hopefully Lewis will too. Godfrey and Aarons both need some time off, but we don't have anyone to replace them.

And I go back to my earlier post - I would bite Spurs hands off if they are really offering £30m for Godfrey at this stage of his development.

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13 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

His possession was good today, when he had someone to give it to; his positioning (again!) questionable. Sheffield United tried all game to pull our centre backs out from the middle by overloading the wings and that's the way the equaliser came - both centre backs pulled out of the way to leave Aarons to mark a giant for the header, which was so easy it was embarrassing. You can't just take one aspect of a footballer and make that his measurement of quality. The reason Godfrey is "rated" is because he is English, home grown and could have an easy place in a squad for not a lot of money - plus we consistently massively overrate our "young" English players, but that's another issue.

 

I'm sorry sgncfc, but this 'analysis' is twaddle.

For their first goal Godfrey and Zimmermann were both doing exactly what they should have been doing at that point, i.e. marking their man. The goal came about because Byram was asleep and stood in no mans land marking nobody when the throw was taken. If he had been where he should have been, i.e. out on the left wing marking the thrower there is no way the cross would have ever come into the box in the first place. Godfrey can't be in two places at once and to try and in some way blame the first goal on him is laughable. 

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20 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'm sorry sgncfc, but this 'analysis' is twaddle.

For their first goal Godfrey and Zimmermann were both doing exactly what they should have been doing at that point, i.e. marking their man. The goal came about because Byram was asleep and stood in no mans land marking nobody when the throw was taken. If he had been where he should have been, i.e. out on the left wing marking the thrower there is no way the cross would have ever come into the box in the first place. Godfrey can't be in two places at once and to try and in some way blame the first goal on him is laughable. 

So suddenly we're man-marking? I thought we were zonal and that was what all the fuss was about. Look at the highlights - Godfrey follows the man in front of him instead of passing him over. Zimmermann is marking no -one and moves out towards the ball. They are our centre backs - the clue is in the name, and Godfrey's positioning contributes to the goal being conceded - exactly what Sheffield Utd have been working on with every team they have faced so far this season and most of last. It isn't difficult to defend against. As a result Aarons is abandoned. Yes, Byram should cut the cross out but after that it should still be defended and would be if our defence worked properly.

I'm not blaming him alone for the first goal, it's a whole defence problem - but the team make the same errors game after game and our opposition don't have to work very hard to score against us. For the second goal their guy gets passed Vrancic and no one else moves a muscle to assist - Hernandez just looks at him as he shoots; he's on the edge of our area and not one defender is moving out to challenge him or block any shot.

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

So suddenly we're man-marking? I thought we were zonal and that was what all the fuss was about. Look at the highlights - Godfrey follows the man in front of him instead of passing him over. Zimmermann is marking no -one and moves out towards the ball. They are our centre backs - the clue is in the name, and Godfrey's positioning contributes to the goal being conceded - exactly what Sheffield Utd have been working on with every team they have faced so far this season and most of last. It isn't difficult to defend against. As a result Aarons is abandoned. Yes, Byram should cut the cross out but after that it should still be defended and would be if our defence worked properly.

I'm not blaming him alone for the first goal, it's a whole defence problem - but the team make the same errors game after game and our opposition don't have to work very hard to score against us. For the second goal their guy gets passed Vrancic and no one else moves a muscle to assist - Hernandez just looks at him as he shoots; he's on the edge of our area and not one defender is moving out to challenge him or block any shot.

Its really very simple - we zonal mark at corners and at some free kicks from wide out. All the rest of the time we man mark - just like every other team does.

The trouble with your 'analysis' is that you're talking from perfect hindsight. Believe it or not the vast majority of goals aren't scored from headers, but from shots - and you have to try and defend every threat - not just one. 

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9 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Its really very simple - we zonal mark at corners and at some free kicks from wide out. All the rest of the time we man mark - just like every other team does.

The trouble with your 'analysis' is that you're talking from perfect hindsight. Believe it or not the vast majority of goals aren't scored from headers, but from shots - and you have to try and defend every threat - not just one. 

Almost every team in the world zonal marks in open play. You don’t see right backs following strikers to the left back position - the right back passes the man on to the centre back, who then passes him on to the left back. It would be absolute chaos if you were man marking in open play (other than perhaps one player being told to man mark a particularly dangerous opponent).

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Almost every team in the world zonal marks in open play. You don’t see right backs following strikers to the left back position - the right back passes the man on to the centre back, who then passes him on to the left back. It would be absolute chaos if you were man marking in open play (other than perhaps one player being told to man mark a particularly dangerous opponent).

Sigh..............................

Their second goal came from a throw-in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watch it again. Byram makes a good tackle in open play to put the ball out for a throw in. He then nods off for a couple of seconds and retreats far too far backwards leaving Hernandez to try and defend a 2 against 1 situation. When the thrower gets the ball back Byram wakes up and tries to get out to block the cross, but he's much too far away and can't get there in time. 

Coaches spend their lives yelling "when the ball goes dead, you come alive" at players!! 

Listen to Farke's interview after the game - he sounded as jarred off as I've ever heard him. He said words to the effect of: "we've spent all week working on defending throw ins and then we go and let them get an easy cross in to the box."

When he was asked about Southampton's first goal in the week he concentrated on saying the best way to defend those situations is not to give the free kick away in the first place. Cantwell (who gave that free kick away) was dropped to the bench on Sunday.

Do not be at all surprised if Lewis comes back in at Leicester and Byram drops to the bench. 

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I originally I was completely against selling any first team regulars this season but I’m 100% convinced whatever happens for the rest of this season we will find ourselves in the 2nd tier next season. I would only accept an offer of £50+ though as we are rather stricken for CBs at the moment and so it might not be a wise idea selling but if we got £50m it might turn out to be quite useful for a club our size. If we do accept an offer though we take it at our own peril as we are very limited on CB availability, and Godfrey accepts the contract at his own peril as he is still young and may wreck his career - I just can’t see him getting much game time at a big Premier League team at the moment.

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14 minutes ago, HazzaJet said:

I originally I was completely against selling any first team regulars this season but I’m 100% convinced whatever happens for the rest of this season we will find ourselves in the 2nd tier next season. I would only accept an offer of £50+ though as we are rather stricken for CBs at the moment and so it might not be a wise idea selling but if we got £50m it might turn out to be quite useful for a club our size. If we do accept an offer though we take it at our own peril as we are very limited on CB availability, and Godfrey accepts the contract at his own peril as he is still young and may wreck his career - I just can’t see him getting much game time at a big Premier League team at the moment.

 

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There is no way anyone will be paying fifty million for Godfrey would be surprised if we got anything like that for him and Max together they are part of a very poor defence.Potential to improve yes but not for that sort of money.

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Putting price of £50m on Godfrey is no different to when you price a car at £5000 knowing you’d take £4500. I think the club would take £30/35m, as long as Godfrey has a full mot first obviously 

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10 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

And I'm sorry to say it Aggy, but you clearly haven't got a clue about the difference between zonal and man to man marking. 

Go on then do tell... 

Maybe google it first.

 

Edit: Maybe have a read of this https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1360111-man-marking-or-zonal-outlining-the-arguments-for-both-defensive-approaches#slide5 (or pretty much anything else you’ll find doing a quick google). 

Edited by Aggy
Edit: maybe have a read of this: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1360111-man-marking-or-zonal-outlining-the-arguments-for-both-defensive-approaches#slide5

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10 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Sigh..............................

Their second goal came from a throw-in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watch it again. Byram makes a good tackle in open play to put the ball out for a throw in. He then nods off for a couple of seconds and retreats far too far backwards leaving Hernandez to try and defend a 2 against 1 situation. When the thrower gets the ball back Byram wakes up and tries to get out to block the cross, but he's much too far away and can't get there in time. 

Coaches spend their lives yelling "when the ball goes dead, you come alive" at players!! 

Listen to Farke's interview after the game - he sounded as jarred off as I've ever heard him. He said words to the effect of: "we've spent all week working on defending throw ins and then we go and let them get an easy cross in to the box."

When he was asked about Southampton's first goal in the week he concentrated on saying the best way to defend those situations is not to give the free kick away in the first place. Cantwell (who gave that free kick away) was dropped to the bench on Sunday.

Do not be at all surprised if Lewis comes back in at Leicester and Byram drops to the bench. 

Okay..... what has any of this got to do with zonal vs man marking? My post that you quoted didn’t mention any game, any player, any specific scenario - it just said that almost every club in the world uses zonal marking in open play. You quoted that post and, in response, don’t mention marking once. Are we each having a different conversation?

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2 hours ago, Aggy said:

Okay..... what has any of this got to do with zonal vs man marking? My post that you quoted didn’t mention any game, any player, any specific scenario - it just said that almost every club in the world uses zonal marking in open play. You quoted that post and, in response, don’t mention marking once. Are we each having a different conversation?

This whole conversation came about because sgnfc tried to contort the facts to make out that Godfrey was in some way responsible for Sheffield United's first goal. That's why I replied to you still talking about that particular goal. I put about 10 exclamation marks after 'throw in' because a throw in is a set piece situation - not open play! 

As for marking etc in general - yes, you're right, defenders sometimes 'pass on' a runner to another team mate. They pass that runner on so that that other team mate can mark them. 

The Bleacher report article that you've linked is a badly written piece by someone who clearly has limited knowledge what they're talking about that was written 7 years ago. But if you read even that carefully you will see that all the examples it gives of 'zonal marking in open play' all relate to midfield players, not to defenders - and the conversation here originally was about what our defenders should have been doing at that Sheffield United throw in.  I will happily accept that our midfielders, like nearly all other midfielders, will tend to cover a particular area while defending in open play rather than trying to doggedly stick to one opposition player. 

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50 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

This whole conversation came about because sgnfc tried to contort the facts to make out that Godfrey was in some way responsible for Sheffield United's first goal. That's why I replied to you still talking about that particular goal. I put about 10 exclamation marks after 'throw in' because a throw in is a set piece situation - not open play! 

As for marking etc in general - yes, you're right, defenders sometimes 'pass on' a runner to another team mate. They pass that runner on so that that other team mate can mark them. 

The Bleacher report article that you've linked is a badly written piece by someone who clearly has limited knowledge what they're talking about that was written 7 years ago. But if you read even that carefully you will see that all the examples it gives of 'zonal marking in open play' all relate to midfield players, not to defenders - and the conversation here originally was about what our defenders should have been doing at that Sheffield United throw in.  I will happily accept that our midfielders, like nearly all other midfielders, will tend to cover a particular area while defending in open play rather than trying to doggedly stick to one opposition player. 

I don’t think I’ve mentioned the goal against Shef Utd anywhere. My comment was purely about marking in open play.

Edited as tbh I don’t think the whole post was needed. I’ll change to say : my initial post merely said that almost every team in the world zonal marks in open play. 

Man marking in open play would mean that ten players are assigned an opponent they follow round the field at all times.

If that doesn’t happen, then they aren’t man marking. Zonal marking has different forms, yes. But ultimately, if it isn’t the case that player A is told to stick with player B for 90 minutes then they aren’t man marking. In England it’s usually nowadays the defence squeezes as a unit and the individual defender picks up/closes down anyone who comes into their zone. When an opponent leaves your zone, you no longer follow him round the pitch.
 

As for midfielders, you might tell your holding midfielder to man mark the opponent’s most creative player. Your holding midfielder follows him round and doesn’t give him an inch of space all game. That’s man marking.

Presumably from your post, you don’t accept that defenders pass on a man? Do they just doggedly stick to one opponent? 

Edited by Aggy

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