Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
lake district canary

Hillsborough......still

Recommended Posts

So yet another trial finishes and no-one can be found to take the full blame. I understand the families will never be able to get over it, but surely to goodness this has to end now.

No more trials, no more attempts to find a culprit. We all know the decisions that were taken, we all know who was invloved and we know pretty much exactly what happened - and no one person can be found to take the ultimate blame....presumably because there isn't one.  Yes, the person in charge on the day is the obvious choice, but then he should not have been put in charge with his lack of experience, so the responsibility is disspiated into someone higher up the chain who put him in charge and then on up the chain...... 

It was plainly a collection of sorry circumstances that led to the tragedy and many lessons have been learned from it, but it was thirty years ago and everything is known about it that can be known.  Never forgotten, because of the horror of the occasion - and it is plain that complacency should never happen in planning the policing of sporting events - but the continual turmoil is doing no good for anyone.  So shouldn't it now be allowed to rest? 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From an outsiders point of view drawing a line under it all these years later might seem a good idea but how would we feel if it was one of our loved ones who had died ?

I don't agree that the buck should be passed further up the chain. Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was in charge on the day. Inexperienced he may have been but he was the one who panicked when he made the crucial decision to open the turnstile gates but failed to close access to the already overcrowded centre pen at the Leppings Lane end.

He was a lucky man in court today.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They wanted a trial....they got one...and now surprise, they don't like the verdict.

9-1 in favour of not guilty.

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.

...of course they want to pin the blame on someone but the events of the day are more nuanced than that with many factors contriving to cause the event....and the truth that they will never want to hear is that their own fans were one of those factors.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

They wanted a trial....they got one...and now surprise, they don't like the verdict.

9-1 in favour of not guilty.

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.

...of course they want to pin the blame on someone but the events of the day are more nuanced than that with many factors contriving to cause the event....and the truth that they will never want to hear is that their own fans were one of those factors.

I wondered how long it would be for someone to have a go at scousers. People died - fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, sisters and brothers. Does it matter where they came from? Did the people at the front contribute to the pushing at the back? I doubt it, but because they are from Liverpool it somehow makes it ok to lessen what happened. Would it be ok if you said the colour of their skin contributed to what happened? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I wondered how long it would be for someone to have a go at scousers. People died - fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, sisters and brothers. Does it matter where they came from? Did the people at the front contribute to the pushing at the back? I doubt it, but because they are from Liverpool it somehow makes it ok to lessen what happened. Would it be ok if you said the colour of their skin contributed to what happened? 

...youve made where theyre from an issue, not me,  ...

...thats irrevelent , the point is that of course people want justice but maybe there's no one person or people that can be blamed

...and no, clearly the victims in this who were, as you say, at the front were the innocent people in this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

They wanted a trial....they got one...and now surprise, they don't like the verdict.

9-1 in favour of not guilty.

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.

...of course they want to pin the blame on someone but the events of the day are more nuanced than that with many factors contriving to cause the event....and the truth that they will never want to hear is that their own fans were one of those factors.

Utter drivel GJL............................... the TRUTH is that their fans were NOT one of the factors. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...youve made where theyre from an issue, not me,  ...

...thats irrevelent , the point is that of course people want justice but maybe there's no one person or people that can be blamed

...and no, clearly the victims in this who were, as you say, at the front were the innocent people in this.

Errr... to quote you:

 

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Errr... to quote you:

 

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.”

 

...err.....because thats where theyre from ?

...todays jury was presumably neutral with no pre conceived predjudice.

It would be the same whichever set of football fans would have been involved, from whichever part of the country.

You seem to be the one who wants to be turning it into a 'persectuting people from Liverpool' issue

...now stop trying to put words in peoples mouths

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So op you want this to rest but you open a thread on a public message board where you know you will provoke a discussion if not a full scale argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, today is awful news for the families of the 96 who have suffered unimaginable pain and grief for too long. After all the recent momentum, closure looked close. However, I agree with the outcome. 

I believe the tragedy was the result of a chain of events, that started before well before the actual day of the disaster. The FA, the local council, the body awarding Hillsborough's safety certificate, Sheffield Wednesday FC.... the list goes on. To prosecute one person for the failings of many just doesn't seem right, no matter how desperate the families of the victims are. 

How could anyone reasonably expect the Police Commander that day to make the right call in what was ultimately an unprecedented situation, that was escalating at an alarming rate? I believe he tried to do the right thing in a whirlwind of panic and chaos. 

Liverpool fans were not to blame. But they did contribute. However, the outcome is likely the same which ever clubs supporters were there that day. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Firstly, today is awful news for the families of the 96 who have suffered unimaginable pain and grief for too long. After all the recent momentum, closure looked close. However, I agree with the outcome. 

I believe the tragedy was the result of a chain of events, that started before well before the actual day of the disaster. The FA, the local council, the body awarding Hillsborough's safety certificate, Sheffield Wednesday FC.... the list goes on. To prosecute one person for the failings of many just doesn't seem right, no matter how desperate the families of the victims are. 

How could anyone reasonably expect the Police Commander that day to make the right call in what was ultimately an unprecedented situation, that was escalating at an alarming rate? I believe he tried to do the right thing in a whirlwind of panic and chaos. 

Liverpool fans were not to blame. But they did contribute. However, the outcome is likely the same which ever clubs supporters were there that day. 

 

One of the main points about the whole terrible tragedy is that there was absolutely no reason  for it to be 'an unprecedented situation'. The same two clubs had played the same game at the same stadium in the same stage of the same competition and been allocated the same sections of the ground only a year before!! That game passed off without serious incident. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

One of the main points about the whole terrible tragedy is that there was absolutely no reason  for it to be 'an unprecedented situation'. The same two clubs had played the same game at the same stadium in the same stage of the same competition and been allocated the same sections of the ground only a year before!! That game passed off without serious incident. 

The situation in which the decision was made to open the gates, was unprecedented. The previous year did not follow the same chain of events. The amount of fans at the turnstiles so close to kick off led to the fateful decision. This was not the case the before.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect the families of the innocent will never get peace from this. Even if a jury had found him guilty there would be a constant nagging feeling that others were at fault as well, causing further frustration for those who lost loved ones. It certainly would for me.

This was a combination of errors from individuals and corporations. A complex investigation from an ever changing and dynamic set of events that ultimately led to the dreadful death of 96 football supporters who had arrived early to gain a good advantage point. However to suggest one man is entirely at fault for this tragedy firstly can not be proven to the required criminal level and secondly does not sit right when you look at the incident as a whole or the general culture around football at the time.

Huge lessons have been learnt from that terrible day which benefit many supporters now, though that is of course small comfort to the effected.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

 

How could anyone reasonably expect the Police Commander that day to make the right call in what was ultimately an unprecedented situation, that was escalating at an alarming rate? I believe he tried to do the right thing in a whirlwind of panic and chaos. 

 

 

I agree that it was expecting a lot of anyone not to make crucial mistakes in the chaos but subsequently trying to cover up those mistakes is not acceptable.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I agree that it was expecting a lot of anyone not to make crucial mistakes in the chaos but subsequently trying to cover up those mistakes is not acceptable.

It's being extremely charitable to Duckenfield to say that he "tried to cover up those mistakes" ASMS. 

The truth is that he blatantly lied about it and did so for a period of 26 years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31821211

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think its Lakeys or any of our rights to say when a line should be drawn under it.

That can only come from the victims families.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When faced with tragedy, such as the Hillsborough disaster. Martin Luther King's quote 'When something bad happens you have three choices, you can let it define you, let it destroy you or let it strengthen you', seems quite fitting. I just hope that all those effected by that terrible event can eventually find their strength. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I dont think its Lakeys or any of our rights to say when a line should be drawn under it.

That can only come from the victims families.

I think it comes from the courts hogesar.

The victims families are the least objective people involved, quite rightly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who went to that cup tie at West Ham will know how easily the same thing could have happened there, never been so scared in my life, 10,000 going up and down a narrow staircase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I think it comes from the courts hogesar.

The victims families are the least objective people involved, quite rightly.

From a legal point of view of course you're correct.

But Lakeys essentially asking for everyone to draw a line under it and just because the courts make a decision - the victims families dont have to 'feel' like justice has been done (even if legally it has).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The warning signs were clear at Hillsborough; It was a potentially (more) dangerous ground.

This is Wolves v Tottenham Hotspur at Hillsborough...
in 1981.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Errr... to quote you:

 

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.”

He was charged with Gross Negligence Manslaughter, to prove the Gross element of that to a criminal standard, "beyond all reasonable doubt" is a very high bar. Its not too surprising that the prosecution failled to reach it.

 

"The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is an emotional subject. My views at the time have changed to my view now. Remember we were sat at Villa Park while this was going on and remarks like "scousers at it again" were heard. And after Heysel, without any in depth knowledge of what really happened, it seemed a legitimate thought.

Even Brian Clough made remarks which while factual didn't help. And a Liverpool supporting mate of mine and I used to argue in the pub about it. And a scouser I worked with referred to Heysel as "bad bricklaying" but Hillsborough as murder.

Now the inquest has revealed as much of the truth as we are ever likely to get, the lies that were told to cover up any mistakes that had been made, by all parties, leaves me with nothing but total sympathy for those who lost loved ones.

This latest trial will not appease all those involved of course and it may well never have closure. But just as we were killing Argentinians not long before Hillsborough, we now love our little Emi. Moving on is hard for the bereaved but the rest of football must move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

From an outsiders point of view drawing a line under it all these years later might seem a good idea but how would we feel if it was one of our loved ones who had died ?

I don't agree that the buck should be passed further up the chain. Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was in charge on the day. Inexperienced he may have been but he was the one who panicked when he made the crucial decision to open the turnstile gates but failed to close access to the already overcrowded centre pen at the Leppings Lane end.

He was a lucky man in court today.

 

I don't know how we would feel Smithy and I doubt there are very many of us in here who have lost sons or daughters in tragic circumstances that they believe are the fault of someone else. I fully understand their thirst for justice and why they will be upset at the outcome. My own take on it is that most tragedies like this are a "perfect storm" where various circumstances combine to tragic effect and sometimes there may not be one person, body or entity who is wholly to blame.

However, if there is one silver lining to it perhaps it will be that the fact they appear to have got to the "end of the road" and have nowhere else to turn will allow some of these families to step back from the perpetual battle they have been engaged in and try and get on with the rest of their lives. This must have absolutely dominated their lives for the last 30 years and many of them look shot to pieces over it both physically and emotionally. I just hope that whoever is advising them on these matters takes that into account rather than simply egging them on to take more and more actions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, my experience of police crowd control techniques indicate that nothing much has changed in how they consistently fail to monitor the potential impact of their decisions - from "kettling" to forcing people down into tube stations to disperse crowds or using horses to move groups away, with little regard for the consequences. Anyone who has been to any well attended game or a concert at Wembley will probably have experienced their incompetence at some stage.

My personal view is that it is the police's job to make sure people who attend such events are safe from harm - in the case of Hillsborough, they failed dismally and should be held accountable; the fact that they then tried to cover up their failure just makes it worse and gives us all some insight into the calibre of individual who achieves high rank in our police force. It wasn't just Duckenfield, there was an orchestrated cover up from on high.

If it was my relative affected I would never give up; and neither should the relatives of the 96.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

My personal view is that it is the police's job to make sure people who attend such events are safe from harm

I would agree with that up to a point, but it is also up to people themselves to make sure they are not acting in such a way that may cause harm to others.  It begs this question.......if you and others are trying to catch a tube train and the platform is full, yet you and a few others push anyway because you are desperate to get the next train and someone at the front falls on to the line as a result, whose fault is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I would agree with that up to a point, but it is also up to people themselves to make sure they are not acting in such a way that may cause harm to others.  It begs this question.......if you and others are trying to catch a tube train and the platform is full, yet you and a few others push anyway because you are desperate to get the next train and someone at the front falls on to the line as a result, whose fault is it?

Laleyo.  Too many people  died for it just to be forgotten  and move on. Your OP implied that it was over , done, and people  should move on. Ok , no one individual can be held solely responsible, but the scuffers took part in an almighty cover up....and that needs to be unravelled  , with the guilty held to account.  The day itself was a tragic  balls up. The lies , misinformation and cover up  afterwards are nothing short of  criminal.  Someone needs  to get amongst the old bill and get to the who , when and how.. then hammer them, it might go some way to restoring  their  reputation as the whole incident has no doubt affected many peoples feelings towards  our so called ' envy of the world Police Force'.  But I fear they will procrastinate,  block ,bluff and stall  untill key witnesses have passed on or are 'too  unwell 'to be prosecuted. 

Would be interest to hear what someone who used to be 'in the job ' thinks of it all. Though I suspect a closing of ranks will apply. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×