Hillsborough......still

[Surfer 1,547]

I am struck by how differently the two major football disasters of that time - Hillsborough and Bradford - have embedded in our memories. 

[East Rider 548]

13 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

  Someone needs  to get amongst the old bill and get to the who , when and how.. then hammer them, it might go some way to restoring  their  reputation as the whole incident has no doubt affected many peoples feelings towards  our so called ' envy of the world Police Force'.  But I fear they will procrastinate,  block ,bluff and stall  untill key witnesses have passed on or are 'too  unwell 'to be prosecuted.  

Would be interest to hear what someone who used to be 'in the job ' thinks of it all. Though I suspect a closing of ranks will apply. 

I'm not 'in the job' as you call it but it appears you have an issue with the police? You do realise that virtually all those involved with the incident on the official side would have left/retired, yet you wish to 'hammer the police'.

This is of course the same police who this afternoon (before your rant) ran towards a suspect with an explosive device strapped to his cheat knowing full well they are likely to die doing so, and shot him dead saving other innocent members of our public! How many critics of the police who have the balls to do that? Very few I imagine.

I have been to may matches and interacted with the police on may occasions. I have also ravelled the world. I can say with out reservation that despite the cuts to their numbers our police are by and large decent, brave and honourable. I have also dealt with members of the public in various work and would struggle to describe most of them in the same style.

The get 'hammered' enough in my opinion generally by people with an axe to grind, or something to hide. Including attacked every day, stabbed, shot at and abused, just to assist critics like you!

Poor timing

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I don't think its a secret that the police and military and maybe the medical profession, close ranks when there is a major incident involving them.

No-one is above the law possibly apart from the a dangerous confrontation or warlike situation when an instant decision to save human life, particularly the public, is needed.

Hillsborough clearly wasn't one of those. And again decisions were made that were at best incorrect judgement. It was the lying and cover up afterwards that is unacceptable.

When Tony Blair told parliament about the 45 minutes capability, my instant reaction was that something had to be done. Of course we found out he lied. And lots of people died, were maimed or lost their homes and belongings because of it. Because he dare not mention regime change which is what Bush and he wanted, he lied to us all. And that is unacceptable.

It is not enough to say that those responsible will have to live with it.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

39 minutes ago, East Rider said:

I'm not 'in the job' as you call it but it appears you have an issue with the police? You do realise that virtually all those involved with the incident on the official side would have left/retired, yet you wish to 'hammer the police'.

This is of course the same police who this afternoon (before your rant) ran towards a suspect with an explosive device strapped to his cheat knowing full well they are likely to die doing so, and shot him dead saving other innocent members of our public! How many critics of the police who have the balls to do that? Very few I imagine.

I have been to may matches and interacted with the police on may occasions. I have also ravelled the world. I can say with out reservation that despite the cuts to their numbers our police are by and large decent, brave and honourable. I have also dealt with members of the public in various work and would struggle to describe most of them in the same style.

The get 'hammered' enough in my opinion generally by people with an axe to grind, or something to hide. Including attacked every day, stabbed, shot at and abused, just to assist critics like you!

Poor timing

 

 

Yep  , true, i guess  I  got carried away  with my anger at the cover up. I don't have an axe to grind or anything to hide , and most of my interactions  with individual  policemen  have been  fine. The guys today  were of course  very  brave as have many ,in  such situations.  There is however much still to be followed up on regarding the cover up after Hillsborough.  I'm sure nearly all  go into the force with the best intentions , but it is not a perfect  institution and getting to the bottom of cover ups ,corruption etc seems to be like swimming through  treacle.  An Garda Siochana, as the police force over here are known, recently closed ranks on a whistleblower, going as far as coercing  a social worker to give evidence that he was a paedophile.  ..just to protect their own reputations.  I was a member if the British  Army , served in the Falklands and was equally appalled  at the recent cover up of illegal killings in Afghanistan by British soldiers,  by recording them as kills by Afghan soldiers  no paperwork was  required . There should be no hiding place in such organisations  for those who act outside  the law. As I said, when they find out who , when and how took part in the cover up they should indeed be hammered , at no point did I suggest the police in general  should be hammered as you tried to insinuate  I did. Please dont take my comments  out of context. Disagree,  by all means but dont put a spin on it.

Edited November 29, 2019 by wcorkcanary

[Rivvo 257]

2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Yep  , true, i guess  I  got carried away  with my anger at the cover up. I don't have an axe to grind or anything to hide , and most of my interactions  with individual  policemen  have been  fine. The guys today  were of course  very  brave as have many ,in  such situations.  There is however much still to be followed up on regarding the cover up after Hillsborough.  I'm sure nearly all  go into the force with the best intentions , but it is not a perfect  institution and getting to the bottom of cover ups ,corruption etc seems to be like swimming through  treacle.  An Garda Siochana, as the police force over here are known, recently closed ranks on a whistleblower, going as far as coercing  a social worker to give evidence that he was a paedophile.  ..just to protect their own reputations.  I was a member if the British  Army , served in the Falklands and was equally appalled  at the recent cover up of illegal killings in Afghanistan by British soldiers,  by recording them as kills by Afghan soldiers  no paperwork was  required . There should be no hiding place in such organisations  for those who act outside  the law.

Very much different times for the Police in those days Corky, Pace had only just come into effect with greater accountability and lot of the bad , and sometimes criminal behaviour, was generally only exercised by a few individuals, however South Yorkshire had a particularly poor reputation some of which was due to the miners strike and some of which was due to a generally poor attitude towards members of the public. Sometimes I think that they forgot that the Police are here to serve the public as well as uphold the law.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 minutes ago, Rivvo said:

Very much different times for the Police in those days Corky, Pace had only just come into effect with greater accountability and lot of the bad , and sometimes criminal behaviour, was generally only exercised by a few individuals, however South Yorkshire had a particularly poor reputation some of which was due to the miners strike and some of which was due to a generally poor attitude towards members of the public. Sometimes I think that they forgot that the Police are here to serve the public as well as uphold the law.

They were the times I grew up in Rivvo. Miners strikes, Greenham  Common etc  I am not anti police , I am anti corruption and the use of the police as soldiers of the government. 

[East Rider 548]

5 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Yep  , true, i guess  I  got carried away  with my anger at the cover up. I don't have an axe to grind or anything to hide , and most of my interactions  with individual  policemen  have been  fine. The guys today  were of course  very  brave as have many ,in  such situations.  There is however much still to be followed up on regarding the cover up after Hillsborough.  I'm sure nearly all  go into the force with the best intentions , but it is not a perfect  institution and getting to the bottom of cover ups ,corruption etc seems to be like swimming through  treacle.  An Garda Siochana, as the police force over here are known, recently closed ranks on a whistleblower, going as far as coercing  a social worker to give evidence that he was a paedophile.  ..just to protect their own reputations.  I was a member if the British  Army , served in the Falklands and was equally appalled  at the recent cover up of illegal killings in Afghanistan by British soldiers,  by recording them as kills by Afghan soldiers  no paperwork was  required . There should be no hiding place in such organisations  for those who act outside  the law. As I said, when they find out who , when and how took part in the cover up they should indeed be hammered , at no point did I suggest the police in general  should be hammered as you tried to insinuate  I did. Please dont take my comments  out of context. Disagree,  by all means but dont put a spin on it.

Thank you for the explanation. I too had a similar existence as you, but the vast majority of rank and file police officers I have dealt with have been nothing short of superb. Hamstrung by others and abused by the ignorant. Sometimes the service they provide is certainly poor but usually it is do to others interfering and not allowing them to get on with it.

What I tend to see is officers running towards danger when it comes and for that they deserve support when it is appropriate. I called your comments as I read them, no spin intended as it read as if you were referring to the present which is unfair to those who are trying their best in difficult circumstances.

 

 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

8 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I would agree with that up to a point, but it is also up to people themselves to make sure they are not acting in such a way that may cause harm to others.  It begs this question.......if you and others are trying to catch a tube train and the platform is full, yet you and a few others push anyway because you are desperate to get the next train and someone at the front falls on to the line as a result, whose fault is it?

A venue or station has to have safety procedures to ensure that they can control every event. If you have ever used a tube in rush hour in London, you will know that Transport for London will close the station due to overcrowding, you will also know that people outside moan and complain about being late for work and these people would gladly "jump" the queue to get to the platform...  a station or venue has to have a license to ensure that the innocent people who have attended the event do not die or incur injury because of overcrowding etc. Its certainly not the case that those that died caused their own death as the ones that died were in the stadium before the gate was wrongly opened. You are saying that those that came to the game late knew they would cause the deaths of 96 due to their actions? It is 100% down to an event organiser to make sure it is a safe and orderly event... It's their job to ensure the safety. At no event or station is self control an adequate reason to allow daily or weekly use. You are 100% wrong.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

I would also suggest that the disgusting portrayal of the fans after the event, has led to the need to clear the names of the innocent.. it also lead to the ignorant carrying on that myth

[lake district canary 4,531]

8 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

A venue or station has to have safety procedures to ensure that they can control every event. If you have ever used a tube in rush hour in London, you will know that Transport for London will close the station due to overcrowding, you will also know that people outside moan and complain about being late for work and these people would gladly "jump" the queue to get to the platform...  a station or venue has to have a license to ensure that the innocent people who have attended the event do not die or incur injury because of overcrowding etc. Its certainly not the case that those that died caused their own death as the ones that died were in the stadium before the gate was wrongly opened. You are saying that those that came to the game late knew they would cause the deaths of 96 due to their actions? It is 100% down to an event organiser to make sure it is a safe and orderly event... It's their job to ensure the safety. At no event or station is self control an adequate reason to allow daily or weekly use. You are 100% wrong.

It has not always been the case that underground stations have been closed due to overcrowding, I used to live in London in the 70's and on several if not many occasions ha dbeen in stations at times when the platform was dangerously full of people. Maybe the safety measures that have been put in place over the years have materialised due to incidents that happen.

And of course I am not saying that people knew they would cause deaths - it's just that if people hadn't kept pushing forwards, there would not have been any injuries!  Plainly things went wrong and the decisions of controllers on the day brought about the conditions that led to the crush, but it is quite simple - if people hadn't kept pushing to get in, there would not have been an issue.  

That begs the question, how can people stop themselves pushing when there is a forward momentum of a crowd that is almost unstoppable - they can't - and I think most of us who remember standing have been in crowds where we have felt enclosed and felt slightly uncomfortable, with the feeling we have no control, especially before all seating was brought in - and that was brought in as a direct result of Hillsborough. 

So it often takes a tragedy to cause improvements to be made - road barriers and restrictions have often historically been put in place AFTER something awful has happened.  So terrible as Hillsborough was, terrible the cover up afterwards, terrible legacy for football, etc etc........something good came out of it and all of us that go to football matches are safer as a result of the recommendations of the Taylor report - no more should anything like that ever happen.  Some will say it should never have happened, but hindsight is a wonderful thing - if that comander, when he saw the dangerous crush outside the gates, had kept the gate closed there might have been injuries outside the ground. What was he supposed to do?  Keep the gate closed and watch while people got crushed and trod on out there? He thought he was relieving the situation - in other words he thought he was doing the right thing, but he was wrong. 

So mistakes were made at the time and it was an accident waiting to happen - but the essential truth is the same - if you get a large crowd of people together, there need to be rock solid arrangements made and that still sometimes comes about after something has happened.  I went to Sheff Utd two years when we played there and was staggered to see that to get to coaches after the match our fans had to cross the road from the stadium through sheffield utd fans who were leaving the stadium. There were incidents then - and sure enough, the following year the coaches were on our side of the road and there were no incidents. Lessons were learned.

None of that helps the families of the 96, but nothing ever will, it happened and they can't get those people back and they have to live with that, as does everyone who was there who was involved.

[Michael Starr 519]

 

17 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I would agree with that up to a point, but it is also up to people themselves to make sure they are not acting in such a way that may cause harm to others.  It begs this question.......if you and others are trying to catch a tube train and the platform is full, yet you and a few others push anyway because you are desperate to get the next train and someone at the front falls on to the line as a result, whose fault is it?

ultimately, with this example, the station management for not putting down risk avoidance. So in the case of Hillsborough, the police and the stadium management were 100% at fault for the tragic events. Mixed into that however, was naivety (drinking culture not controlled back them) and poor ground planning (barriers). Wouldn't happen today, at least... not at the top level of English football.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Michael Starr

[Erraticus 55]

On 28/11/2019 at 19:06, Nuff Said said:

I wondered how long it would be for someone to have a go at scousers. People died - fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, sisters and brothers. Does it matter where they came from? Did the people at the front contribute to the pushing at the back? I doubt it, but because they are from Liverpool it somehow makes it ok to lessen what happened. Would it be ok if you said the colour of their skin contributed to what happened? 

Nuff Said, how did you manage to make this interpretation from the post to which you were responding ?

[Mr Angry 1,544]

On 28/11/2019 at 18:51, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

They wanted a trial....they got one...and now surprise, they don't like the verdict.

9-1 in favour of not guilty.

Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.

...of course they want to pin the blame on someone but the events of the day are more nuanced than that with many factors contriving to cause the event....and the truth that they will never want to hear is that their own fans were one of those factors.

This is from the Jury's determinations and findings at the Warrington inquests in 2016-the only question in which the actions of the Liverpool supporters was mentioned:

Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

No.

Further to that question: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

No.

[Nuff Said 5,082]

4 hours ago, Erraticus said:

Nuff Said, how did you manage to make this interpretation from the post to which you were responding ?

 

I don't want to get into one of those back and forth exchanges we get on here about this topic, but:

 

On 28/11/2019 at 19:21, Nuff Said said:

Errr... to quote you:

 

”Funny how this is the outcome when it isn't a kanagaroo court exclusively peopled by scousers.”

 

[dylanisabaddog 4,848]

23 hours ago, East Rider said:

I'm not 'in the job' as you call it but it appears you have an issue with the police? You do realise that virtually all those involved with the incident on the official side would have left/retired, yet you wish to 'hammer the police'.

This is of course the same police who this afternoon (before your rant) ran towards a suspect with an explosive device strapped to his cheat knowing full well they are likely to die doing so, and shot him dead saving other innocent members of our public! How many critics of the police who have the balls to do that? Very few I imagine.

I have been to may matches and interacted with the police on may occasions. I have also ravelled the world. I can say with out reservation that despite the cuts to their numbers our police are by and large decent, brave and honourable. I have also dealt with members of the public in various work and would struggle to describe most of them in the same style.

The get 'hammered' enough in my opinion generally by people with an axe to grind, or something to hide. Including attacked every day, stabbed, shot at and abused, just to assist critics like you!

Poor timing

 

 

Timing is irrelevant. The policing was disgraceful and the extent of their incompetence was covered up at the time with many PC's agreeing to change their statements to follow the party line. That is totally unacceptable and it should be noted that the same police force were culpable during the miners strike. Thankfully policing at football matches is way better now than it was then. 

What is really upsetting is yesterday's coverage in The Sun. They seem to have forgotten their role altogether. 

[Rivvo 257]

On 29/11/2019 at 18:43, wcorkcanary said:

They were the times I grew up in Rivvo. Miners strikes, Greenham  Common etc  I am not anti police , I am anti corruption and the use of the police as soldiers of the government. 

That was the whole point of my post, particularly with regard to the miners strike, even the Met came out of that with some credibility but South York’s were,allegedly, shocking considering it was on their own turf. I think we’re probably all anti corruption aren’t we? Have to be dumb not to be as it’s in no ones  interest to have a corrupt Police force, government etc. I’m also against the use of the Police as a Political tool, luckily the oath of allegiance is sworn to the queen not the state no matter how often different governments have tried to change it.

[Hillhead 114]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

 

I don't want to get into one of those back and forth exchanges we get on here about this topic, but:

 

 

Sorry but no one has implied it's acceptable to lessen what's happened because it's scousers. No idea where you have got that from.