The Todd Cantwell Appreciation Society

[Petriix 2,834]

42 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

I don't dislike vegans for that specifically, what I dislike is people who make their choices, and then look down on others who don't share the same viewpoints. We are all entitled to make our own choices based on our own circumstances,  experiences and values.

Its not hard.

No, you're not entitled to an opinion that contradicts proven science. That's like saying "in my opinion, if I flap my arms I could fly".

For some reason you've taken offence. No one has said anything even slightly controversial or in any way unkind apart from you.

Some of us are interested in prolonging the longevity of the human race. I can't for a second imagine why anyone would disagree with that aim, let alone start insulting people for it. What a very sad existence.

Thankfully your ill-informed views are very much in the minority.

[Greavsy 2,412]

You keep proving my point. You're just saying you're right because you say you are. 

You've ignored the facts I've posted.  Proven science, my backside.

Anyway this is a football forum, so let's agree to disagree. As I've said before you're perfectly entitled to make your own choices, just don't judge others for theirs. 

I wish you well, and goodnight.

[Ian 1,129]

8 hours ago, Petriix said:

Tell me, how much of the UK's power was generated by burning coal in the last 12 months?

Perhaps you have some figures to hand about the embedded CO2 costs per kWh of lithium Ion batteries and how that compares to digging up, shipping, refining and burning fossil fuels?

Obviously a football forum is not going to be the best place to discuss complex science, but the level of ignorance here is alarming, if not surprising.

Here you go, this is a useful site for analysing demand: https://gridwatch.co.uk/

Bear in mind this is based on current demand, how much do you think this will increase when electric cars increase their market share substantially? What energy source do you think is most likely to scale to meet this higher demand, considering there doesn't appear to be a great appetite for nuclear energy?

Lithium, again, is a finite resource, and I personally don't feel comfortable at the thought of a huge quantity of lithium batteries flying around at 70 mph + on motorways. If you think that battery powered vehicles are the answer to a complex environmental problem, that is your prerogative, but please don't overreact if somebody points out they certainly are not the panacea.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

Here you go, this is a useful site for analysing demand: https://gridwatch.co.uk/

Bear in mind this is based on current demand, how much do you think this will increase when electric cars increase their market share substantially? What energy source do you think is most likely to scale to meet this higher demand, considering there doesn't appear to be a great appetite for nuclear energy?

Lithium, again, is a finite resource, and I personally don't feel comfortable at the thought of a huge quantity of lithium batteries flying around at 70 mph + on motorways. If you think that battery powered vehicles are the answer to a complex environmental problem, that is your prerogative, but please don't overreact if somebody points out they certainly are not the panacea.

 I'm flabbergasted that views like this are not only in circulation still, apart from in the swamps of Florida and the more extreme Republican circles, but also openly displayed.

You're uncomfortable at "lithium batteries flying around at 70mph +" - but not huge tanks of extremely flammable liquid (which is itself a finite resource)? I don't think anyone here has said electric vehicles (note no-one is advocating for lithium batteries themselves) are a panacea, but they are a step forward on what was previously used, i.e. internal combustion engines.

Society is clearly moving to a power infrastructure based on electricity,  not oil or gas. Usage is undeniably increasing. Pointing to today's figures as evidence for something is a nonsense when the trend is obviously increasing quickly towards largely renewable sources of power. Technology is evolving at a similar pace, so imperfect solutions today will be tweaked and improved as time passes, but that's in no way a reason to do nothing. That's the way technology improves.

What exactly do you suggest we do about climate change for road transport if not move to electric technology?

[Ian 1,129]

31 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

 I'm flabbergasted that views like this are not only in circulation still, apart from in the swamps of Florida and the more extreme Republican circles, but also openly displayed.

You're uncomfortable at "lithium batteries flying around at 70mph +" - but not huge tanks of extremely flammable liquid (which is itself a finite resource)? I don't think anyone here has said electric vehicles (note no-one is advocating for lithium batteries themselves) are a panacea, but they are a step forward on what was previously used, i.e. internal combustion engines.

Society is clearly moving to a power infrastructure based on electricity,  not oil or gas. Usage is undeniably increasing. Pointing to today's figures as evidence for something is a nonsense when the trend is obviously increasing quickly towards largely renewable sources of power. Technology is evolving at a similar pace, so imperfect solutions today will be tweaked and improved as time passes, but that's in no way a reason to do nothing. That's the way technology improves.

What exactly do you suggest we do about climate change for road transport if not move to electric technology?

I'm sorry, you seem to have misunderstood what I said. I understand this is a very emotive issue for a lot of people, but I don't think this inability to have an actual conversation about things without people starting to chuck out swamp-dweller insults is very helpful. Particularly when none of us have any idea of each others' backgrounds.

The electric motor is clearly more efficient than the combustion engine, and is almost certainly the future of automobiles, but I do not believe that replacing gas with huge quantities of lithium batteries (and the infrastructure required to support these) is really a very brilliant solution. I certainly don't think it is particularly scalable.

Lithium fires pose very different risks to gasoline fires. My point is not that they are inherently less safe than gasoline, but that we are really very much less mature and at the early stages of Lithium battery safety within motor vehicles, so there will be many bumps in the road.

I genuinely have no idea about why you think I am trying to present evidence of anything with regards to the future, but back to my original point, if you look at the current energy mix in the grid, you can see that renewables provide a relatively low percentage of electricity generation at current demand (particularly if you exclude nuclear from that bracket), This is the current demand when we have a relatively tiny percentage of electric cars on the road.

The point is quite simple, so I will put it in simple terms so it cannot be misconstrued. When we have a much higher percentage of electric cars on the road, what energy sources are going to be providing power to satisfy the increased demand? 

This is not a simple problem, which requires discussion and understanding to actually implement, and that is before we get onto the huge level of infrastructure (charging points and so on) which would be required to support a mass switch over from gasoline to battery vehicles and the level of emissions that will be involved in creating and maintaining this.

I genuinely don't understand why people don't have the maturity to discuss this in a rational fashion without resorting to swamp-dweller, Republican or any other insult they wish to utilise. All whilst assuming the other personal must be a selfish oil-baron or whatever straw-man you want to come up with.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Ian

[......and Smith must score. 1,336]

I wonder what Todd Cantwell thinks of the great combustion engine debate ?

After all this is the Todd Cantwell Appreciation Society Thread and footballers are not known to favour fuel-guzzling monstrosity motors 😉

[Petriix 2,834]

https://carbonintensity.org.uk/ is good for the current CO2 intensity. 184g per kWh right now, which would make my EV around 25g per km, just over 1/5th of the emissions from my previous (very efficient) diesel car. Factor in that my solar panels provide around half my EV charging (about 1000kWh over the year) and you can halve those CO2 emissions.

If you're familiar with GridWatch then you'll be aware that coal is only used for a tiny fraction of UK power generation these days.

You're right to have concerns about the environmental impacts of mining the materials for the batteries. But this is, by any objective measure, a tiny fraction of the impact of the total environmental damage caused by the entire cycle of fossil fuels from ground to exhaust. Remember also that the majority of the materials in the batteries are recyclable.

Of course it would be better to not drive at all, take public transport, cycle and walk more. We do a fair amount of that in my household (well, when we're out), but it's great to be able to drop the kids into school because it's p**sing with rain in the knowledge that you're not polluting the air around the school.

Todd Cantwell will definitely appreciate having cleaner air in this fine city while he's out there running around. I'm fairly sure that his heart shaped hands gesture was specifically aimed at me for the steps I'm taking to reduce my carbon footprint.

[chicken 2,605]

9 hours ago, Greavsy said:

I don't dislike vegans for that specifically, what I dislike is people who make their choices, and then look down on others who don't share the same viewpoints. We are all entitled to make our own choices based on our own circumstances,  experiences and values.

Its not hard.

Ah, the paradox.

You dislike others from having points of view you perceive to then look down on your own point of view?

Is this why you attack multiple people in a thread, with your view, whilst looking down on their view at the same time pouring on hatred and scorn? 

Shocking... or it would be if the last 5-7 years hadn't seen a rise in this sort of rubbish.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

@Ian
I typed a longer reply but it's disappeared now.

Tl;dr - you're right, apologies for the extreme words.

What do you suggest we should do if you believe current EV vehicle technology is flawed and the electricity supply won't be able to sustain demand?

 

[Nuff Said 5,092]

P.S. I believe the most environmentally friendly option right now is to carry on running the vehicle you have, rather than swap it for a new model which comes with a whole load of additional embodied energy in its manufacture. At least until it's so old that its emissions increase significantly.

[chicken 2,605]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

P.S. I believe the most environmentally friendly option right now is to carry on running the vehicle you have, rather than swap it for a new model which comes with a whole load of additional embodied energy in its manufacture. At least until it's so old that its emissions increase significantly.

That is essentially what the plan is. In 2030 brand new vehicles will only be electric. That way what you will see is a slow-ish transition. No doubt many diesel/petrol cars will be sold in the 12 months run up to the date of transition and the 2nd hand market will be awash with relatively new cars due to people wanting to jump on the last batch. It may even be that pre-orders don't count as sold before the date.

Either way, it'd then be over to the next 10-20 years as those cars filter down and away. You are already talking about the best part of ten years in the future when technologies will be more reliable and yet more improved and the tech itself will be cheaper. Not only that, devices will become smaller and more power efficient in general. 

[Petriix 2,834]

12 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

P.S. I believe the most environmentally friendly option right now is to carry on running the vehicle you have, rather than swap it for a new model which comes with a whole load of additional embodied energy in its manufacture. At least until it's so old that its emissions increase significantly.

I think (hope) that more and more people will do what I did. My diesel car was 16 years old and, after the MOT extension, required a large amount of work to keep it on the road for another year - 4 new tyres, new ABS pump and controller, new comm unit - so I was looking at over £750 of work just to keep it on the road until the next expensive failure. Instead, MG gave me £4000 off the price of a new MG5 to trade in.

The infrastructure is getting there and will continue to expand. I suspect that a combination of large electricity storage developments, Demand Side Response and Vehicle to X technologies will mitigate against the worst strains on the grid. The international inter-connectors are already helping smooth out demand. Inevitably there will have to be some additional generation but, when you look at the fluctuations in demand, it's entirely feasible that 80% of EV charging could be done within current capacity with smart charging and time-of-use pricing.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Here down in Cornwall, we have the UKs largest source of Lithium which sounds great for the area.

However, the normal method of production involves the use of 500,000 gallons of water to produce 1 tonne.

So thats where the problem begins. Also, it normally involves the use of evaporation to extract the Lithium. That is not an issue for the mass producers, Chile and Australia. But our climate is not the same.

And it does involve giant ponds to hold the extracted water. So there are environmental issues.

So before we get too carried away with electric vehicles, which do appear to be the way forward, we have to realise there is quid pro quo.

[hogesar 9,618]

From a personal point of view it'll be a sad day when I inevitably have to purchase an Electric car.

I'm very much a petrol-head and intend to keep driving my 3.0 twin turbo until i'm no longer allowed.

I know it's not environmentally friendly but i'm passionate about cars and it's something I enjoy.  There's some technically fantastic electric cars but they don't give the same buzz or feel.

[Greavsy 2,412]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

Ah, the paradox.

You dislike others from having points of view you perceive to then look down on your own point of view?

Is this why you attack multiple people in a thread, with your view, whilst looking down on their view at the same time pouring on hatred and scorn? 

Shocking... or it would be if the last 5-7 years hadn't seen a rise in this sort of rubbish.

The humour of someone with the name "chicken" responding to a vegan point has made me chuckle.

My posts weren't intended to be directed personally at at anyone, and apologies if I didn't articulate that well. 

Yes, of course the planet needs saving, that is absolutely not in dispute,  however its the people, with electric cars, solar panels, and the like who have the attitude of "ive done my bit, I'm not destroying the planet, but you are" and in effect attempting to guilt trip those of us who aren't in a position to react.  As Petriix has said himself,  he only changed to an electric car when his was due to be replaced. Maybe others will do the same, maybe the cars will have continued to improve too. The fact they were able to offer him 4k off the price, which you imply is significantly more than the value of you old vehicle, doesnt that show the electric ones are overpriced, and maybe appetite would be increased if they were cheaper. 

BTW, if you look on TCs socials, he appears to have 2 mercs, I have no idea with they are electric or not. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Greavsy

[Petriix 2,834]

34 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

The humour of someone with the name "chicken" responding to a vegan point has made me chuckle.

My posts weren't intended to be directed personally at at anyone, and apologies if I didn't articulate that well. 

Yes, of course the planet needs saving, that is absolutely not in dispute,  however its the people, with electric cars, solar panels, and the like who have the attitude of "ive done my bit, I'm not destroying the planet, but you are" and in effect attempting to guilt trip those of us who aren't in a position to react.  As Petriix has said himself,  he only changed to an electric car when his was due to be replaced. Maybe others will do the same, maybe the cars will have continued to improve too. The fact they were able to offer him 4k off the price, which you imply is significantly more than the value of you old vehicle, doesnt that show the electric ones are overpriced, and maybe appetite would be increased if they were cheaper. 

BTW, if you look on TCs socials, he appears to have 2 mercs, I have no idea with they are electric or not. 

You misunderstand. I'm not claiming superiority, or that I've done my fair share. I'm just saying that EVs are actually really fun to drive, the high price is at least partially offset by the low running costs and that they are worthwhile. My hope is that I can encourage people to give them some consideration. You can do what you like with that information.

I'd really recommend anyone thinking about changing vehicle to give one a test drive. If you need a company car or a vehicle for business use then the BIK is just 1% or you can offset 100% of the cost in the first year so the savings are potentially enormous.

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

And my point is that whilst they are more environmentally friendly at the user end, there is still a lot of impact to the environment, elsewhere in their manufacture (agreed non electric cars have some of the same issues) / power generation etc. 

People are losing jobs all over the place, and cant afford the luxury of a new car, even with adding to their mortgage as you have. I think in the real world environmental issues are low down people's priority when it comes to large purchases, like cars, unfortunately. 

[......and Smith must score. 1,336]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

From a personal point of view it'll be a sad day when I inevitably have to purchase an Electric car.

I'm very much a petrol-head and intend to keep driving my 3.0 twin turbo until i'm no longer allowed.

I know it's not environmentally friendly but i'm passionate about cars and it's something I enjoy.  There's some technically fantastic electric cars but they don't give the same buzz or feel.

I can see where you're coming from with this sentiment.

I've got no interest in cars at all - I like the ones that virtually drive themselves so I do need plenty of bells and whistles - but I can understand why people do like them.

Setting aside the cost to change, etc, etc, I wouldn't fancy an electric car until they can do a decent number of miles between charges and/or there's a decent charging network. I have relatives living a 200-mile-round-trip away and it's a similar story for a visit to Norwich. If the government are serious about this I'm sure things will look a whole lot different in 10 years time but at the moment it's a no-no for me.

There are of course some benefits in being older. As a younger person you'll have to convert to electric but if I buy a new one on New Years Eve 2029 by the time it heads to the knacker's yard I'll be too ga-ga to worry about driving again. 😃

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ......and Smith must score.

[sgncfc 1,223]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

From a personal point of view it'll be a sad day when I inevitably have to purchase an Electric car.

I'm very much a petrol-head and intend to keep driving my 3.0 twin turbo until i'm no longer allowed.

I know it's not environmentally friendly but i'm passionate about cars and it's something I enjoy.  There's some technically fantastic electric cars but they don't give the same buzz or feel.

I'm with you on some of this. I have driven some electric cars with lightning performance in straight lines, but for some reason most electric cars have to be accompanied by similarly high tech interiors which are neither attractive or comfortable. Anyone who has done a long drive in a Tesla may agree with me. The electric cars I've driven are also very poor on cornering feel or any "fun" factor. I get that the exterior designs currently have to compromise somewhat to accommodate the batteries, and that weight dispersal affects driveability, but don't get why they can't still have some personality.

[Greavsy 2,412]

That does raise in interesting point. 

Say hypothetically the car does 200m on a charge, and you visit family / friends 150 miles away. I assume you have to charge up at your destination, and ask their permission to do so. 

Ive never turned up anywhere and asked for a donation for my fuel, which essentially the same thing. 

Or do you have to stop at a recharging station on route / return? How long does that take. Must be fun with kids in there too. 

Its been "ok" during lockdown as such visits arent permitted. 

Genuinely interested. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Greavsy

[Greavsy 2,412]

7 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I can see where you're coming from with this sentiment.

I've got no interest in cars at all - I like the ones that virtually drive themselves so I do need plenty of bells and whistles - but I can understand why people do like them.

Setting aside the cost to change, etc, etc, I wouldn't fancy an electric car until they can do a decent number of miles between charges and/or there's a decent charging network. I have relatives living a 200-mile-round-trip away and it's a similar story for a visit to Norwich. If the governmant are serious about this I'm sure things will look a whole lot different in 10 years time but at the moment it's a no-no for me.

There are of course some benefits in being older. As a younger person you'll have to convert to electric but if I buy a new one on New Years Eve 2029 by the time it heads to the knacker's yard I'll be too ga-ga to worry about driving again. 😃

 

 

[Petriix 2,834]

10 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

That does raise in interesting point. 

Say hypothetically the car does 200m on a charge, and you visit family / friends 150 miles away. I assume you have to charge up at your destination, and ask their permission to do so. 

Ive never turned up anywhere and asked for a donation for my fuel, which essentially the same thing. 

Or do you have to stop at a recharging station on route / return? How long does that take. Must be fun with kids in there too. 

Its been "ok" during lockdown as such visits arent permitted. 

Genuinely interested. 

A perfect example (and just about the longest distance I've ever driven in a single day) was a 400 mile work related trip from Norwich to Chippenham and back last month. Normally we'd stay with friends and make a weekend of it but lockdown meant coming straight home. The car would have just about been capable of making it in one go, but it would have been difficult and stressful so we planned to stop after 150 miles to charge. It turned out that our bladders only had a range of around 110 miles so we stopped at around the half way point. We only needed around 15 minutes to get enough charge to make it all the way, but we picked up some lunch and stretched our legs so ended up stopped for 40 minutes which got us back over 85% charge.

We had arranged our meeting for a location with a charger so we were able to charge for 30 minutes while working. Then we stopped again half way home to grab another bite to eat and another quick stretch of the legs before heading home. In all we were driving for around 8 hours with charging adding no more than 30 minutes on to the natural length of our stops. It cost us a whopping £18 for the journey. Those type of journeys are vanishingly rare.

Yes, if possible, plugging in at your destination is ideal. The convention is to ask in advance or plan a suitable place to charge. We have family in Shoreham and Sheffield who we're likely to visit after this madness is over. One of them we can easily plug in overnight and just give them the £5 it will add to their electric bill. Both have free public chargers within a couple of miles where we can grab a bit of charge while out and about. As more of us get EVs it will be simple to allow our visitors to charge when they visit.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

I'm with you on some of this. I have driven some electric cars with lightning performance in straight lines, but for some reason most electric cars have to be accompanied by similarly high tech interiors which are neither attractive or comfortable. Anyone who has done a long drive in a Tesla may agree with me. The electric cars I've driven are also very poor on cornering feel or any "fun" factor. I get that the exterior designs currently have to compromise somewhat to accommodate the batteries, and that weight dispersal affects driveability, but don't get why they can't still have some personality.

That's the thing. Some of the performance electric cars literally have power on tap with no delay and you'd think they'd be great fun but they quickly become sterile. I'll admit to only having driven a Tesla but if you're into cars they don't have any personality or characteristics to them. It's not just electric cars, a lot of performance cars are becoming 4WD and I want to keep my RWD!

I know I'll have to make the jump at some point but i'm not ready to yet. I also don't do anything near the miles to warrant the cost of changing my car to a new one.

[Greavsy 2,412]

 

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

That's the thing. Some of the performance electric cars literally have power on tap with no delay and you'd think they'd be great fun but they quickly become sterile. I'll admit to only having driven a Tesla but if you're into cars they don't have any personality or characteristics to them. It's not just electric cars, a lot of performance cars are becoming 4WD and I want to keep my RWD!

I know I'll have to make the jump at some point but i'm not ready to yet. I also don't do anything near the miles to warrant the cost of changing my car to a new one.

 Hows the rear wheel drive when  it snows Hoggy - My Lexus was shoite! 

[hogesar 9,618]

4 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

 

 Hows the rear wheel drive when  it snows Hoggy - My Lexus was shoite! 

Oh it's completely undriveable 😂 I imagine similar to the Lexus as my Jag is v. heavy - the 'winter mode' does nothing to help either haha. But it's part of the fun! I don't enjoy all these electric cars that practically drive for you.

[Greavsy 2,412]

I thought it was fun, until I got stuck on a very small incline, and was totally fubarred!  

unlikely to have another rear wheel drive now im afraid (not that it snows that often here!)

[Van wink 2,994]

20 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

I thought it was fun, until I got stuck on a very small incline, and was totally fubarred!  

unlikely to have another rear wheel drive now im afraid (not that it snows that often here!)

Xdrive is the answer

[ron obvious 1,501]

Off to collect my MR2 mk3 tomorrow. Mid-life crisis arriving about 30 years late.

Oh & Todd's effing brilliant!!

[Van wink 2,994]

22 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Off to collect my MR2 mk3 tomorrow. Mid-life crisis arriving about 30 years late.

Oh & Todd's effing brilliant!!

Lock down has been tough for hairdressers Ron 

[ron obvious 1,501]

3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Lock down has been tough for hairdressers Ron 

Cheek. I'll have you know I've never dressed a hair in my life.

I might stick a hair dryer on the inlet manifold though ...