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pete

A club without ambition

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Just now, lappinitup said:

I haven't heard that one before. Can you provide a link to where it was reported please?

We’ll call that selective memory then. Was when we were facing the financial crisis in league 1. I believe it was even on the front of the edp at that time. I’ve no intention of spending my time providing you a link, I’m not a fecking dog fetching a stick!

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9 minutes ago, JF said:

We’ll call that selective memory then. Was when we were facing the financial crisis in league 1. I believe it was even on the front of the edp at that time. I’ve no intention of spending my time providing you a link, I’m not a fecking dog fetching a stick!

Can you tell us who actually said it then, it will help me find it?

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47 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Also worth noting that we'd be up sh*t creek without a paddle if we'd failed to win promotion last season after a £36m loss. 

And a wealthy owner being prepared to take on our external debt as 'internal' (owed to them) would have been the only way out of that situation because Delia doesn't have bail out money to hand to do that. 

Perhaps Nutty and Hogesar should have a think about that before they throw shade at the Forest owner (who came on board and did exactly that). 

Nope.

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12 minutes ago, lappinitup said:

Can you tell us who actually said it then, it will help me find it?

Bowkett said it. Here’s a thread about it 

 

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14 minutes ago, lappinitup said:

Can you tell us who actually said it then, it will help me find it?

And a quote from the thread..

Anything that comes straight from the Chairman has to be taken seriously.  It''s not a rumour.  Bowkett said that the option of selling the ground and leasing it back is one they are considering.  He mentioned two possible purchasers too (Axa and the local authority) which shows they''ve given it quite a bit of thought already.  It may never actually happen but it''s far enough down the roadfor Bowkett to go public, doesn''t that tell you something?

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29 minutes ago, lappinitup said:

Can you tell us who actually said it then, it will help me find it?

And another quote on it from purple canary... you sure you’ve never heard of this....?

]You may well be right - but who knows where we will be in say 20 years time. BUT: if they sold and we could not pre-empt, we would still continue to occupy under the terms of the lease, just with a different landlord.   [/quote]Binky, I was looking at least 20 years ahead! Of course it is impossible to say how things will be decades from now, but - given football economics - it is hard to see us having many millions lying around to buy back Carrow Road. And if we did wouldn''t the fans be wanting us to spend it on players instead? My point is that fans should form a judgment on this on the rational assumption that selling the ground would be forever.I should stress my dislike of this idea (apart from as a last resort) is not based on any great emotional attachment to Carrow Road. But if we ever did want or need to move, then we would need still to have Carrow Road to sell to help finance that.

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1 hour ago, JF said:

Plenty of guff on both sides of the argument. The club can be successful under both the current ownership or a billionaire. It could also fall into troubles under either as well. This idea that the club is in safe hands now only works when the club is successful. Wasn’t so safe when they were considering selling the stadium to keep the club afloat not so long ago! They have had a good enough ownership with plenty of highs and lows, I certainly wouldn’t swap some of the seasons we’ve had for constant Premier League mediocrity. But it would be remiss and arrogant to have people believe that other owners couldn’t emulate that.

I agree we shouldn't rule out that other owners with more money could emulate what we've done. Heck, they could do better. But the simple fact is there are far many richer owners than ours who have achieved less than richer owners who have achieved more (comparatively sized clubs, of course). 

It would be suicidal to not consider any other ownership but we've hardly had queues of fan-billionaires wanting to purchase so far.

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7 minutes ago, JF said:

And a quote from the thread..

Anything that comes straight from the Chairman has to be taken seriously.  It''s not a rumour.  Bowkett said that the option of selling the ground and leasing it back is one they are considering.  He mentioned two possible purchasers too (Axa and the local authority) which shows they''ve given it quite a bit of thought already.  It may never actually happen but it''s far enough down the roadfor Bowkett to go public, doesn''t that tell you something?

It was one option Bowkett mooted but the reality was that our debts were manageable by other much less drastic means. The proof of that is that they were managed, and with a fairly standard arrangement by which repayment of the majority of the debt, to AXA, was put back to May 2022 (of course getting to the Premier League brought the date forward).

That AXA agreed to the deal and to that length of time hardly suggests we were in such financial trouble that selling the ground was ever really a serious option. This is not to downplay our difficulties but is is not unknown in business for incoming chairmen or CEOs to exaggerate the trouble they have inherited, for obvious reasons. More recently Webber has been doing the same.

 

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4 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think the fact you're having to focus purely on one of those names (who has a bit of a chequered past with Cardiff fans as it is) kind of backs up Nuttys point rather than refutes it.

Yep, there are exceptions to every  rule.  Tan, although investing heavily  , and raising    Cardiffs profile,  did have to wind back on some of his more contentious  plans, as Lakeyo  pointed out . This investor larkey is dodgy ground  indeed.  I, for one would rather have a 'conservative ' small c, owner  , who looks to keep the club on a even keel, than a risk taker who could leave us in tatters  if their  plans dont work out. 

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The latest  siidetrack to the ongoing  discussion  ref investors, with old financial discussions being rolled out only goes to prove how careful  we must be with the money we DO actually have. As Hoggo clearly pointed out , neither  method provides  guarantees of success.  What I am pretty sure of is that  if we gave  it the bigun, moneywise.....and it failed,  there would be massive calls for whoever was at the helm to be hung,  drawn and quartered  . . .   quite possibly  by those calling for investment and  spending.  It's very easy to call for change , not so easy to sort it out if it goes titsup.   The path chosen by those who are actually  taking responsibility  for running the club is much less risky.  If I owned  a reasonably successful  football club that I loved , no way would I sell out to anyone, I'd pass it on to a relative if possible.  That's what most people  would do with almost  any  property wholly owned and paid for   . It's not as if Delia and Michael  need the dosh to pay for retirement/ nursing home which is the dilemma  a lot of people face nowadays  .  God luck to em , and best wishes to Tom when he takes over  , let's give him a chance  .

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There might we'll be plenty of guff on both sides of whatever this argument is. But don't drag me into it. Because I'm not saying if any owners are good or bad. I'm just comparing their abilities to get to the promised land. 

It's interesting that to belittle our achievements posters are making claims about "what nearly happened" or "what could have happened". This kind of shows that what actually has happened doesn't back up the points they are trying to make.

But what about Bornmuff.....

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11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

There might we'll be plenty of guff on both sides of whatever this argument is. But don't drag me into it. Because I'm not saying if any owners are good or bad. I'm just comparing their abilities to get to the promised land. 

It's interesting that to belittle our achievements posters are making claims about "what nearly happened" or "what could have happened". This kind of shows that what actually has happened doesn't back up the points they are trying to make.

But what about Bornmuff.....

Not what could have happened but what’s possible under ANY ownership no matter how safe they are perceived to be. 

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1 hour ago, JF said:

Not what could have happened but what’s possible under ANY ownership no matter how safe they are perceived to be. 

Correct. But the reason I listed the owners was because a couple of posters on here wouldn't accept me comparing a list of clubs. 

Either way the bottom line is that if we had another owner there'd only be a one in five chance they could be as successful as what we have with our current owners. The only way to improve those odds would be to make our current owners richer.

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6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Correct. But the reason I listed the owners was because a couple of posters on here wouldn't accept me comparing a list of clubs. 

Either way the bottom line is that if we had another owner there'd only be a one in five chance they could be as successful as what we have with our current owners. The only way to improve those odds would be to make our current owners richer.

There’s no doubt that we’ve punched well above our current financial weight, and outperformed clubs equal and larger than ourselves with more financial clout. And as I’ve said, I wouldn’t swap some of these seasons for the seasons that clubs like even Everton have had in that time. I’m not convinced that 27,000 people buying cook books is going to bridge the financial gap though! 

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49 minutes ago, JF said:

There’s no doubt that we’ve punched well above our current financial weight, and outperformed clubs equal and larger than ourselves with more financial clout. And as I’ve said, I wouldn’t swap some of these seasons for the seasons that clubs like even Everton have had in that time. I’m not convinced that 27,000 people buying cook books is going to bridge the financial gap though! 

No but the Canaries Bond did.

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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Either way the bottom line is that if we had another owner there'd only be a one in five chance they could be as successful as what we have with our current owners. 

Can you explain your methodology here please? Why 5/1? 

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Because there are 5x as many clubs have a worse record in the last 10 seasons.

If you take comparable club's owners it's probably nearer 3/1.

Big gamble though....

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5 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Because there are 5x as many clubs have a worse record in the last 10 seasons.

If you take comparable club's owners it's probably nearer 3/1.

Big gamble though....

Yeah but not all other things are equal.

QPR for example have never had gates over 20,000, Loftus Road only holds 18,000. 

They are naturally a smaller team, 10th in the Championship is above where you'd expect a team of their size to be. 

Its going to be very difficult for Delia to make the right decision when she decides who to pass the club onto, and she may get that right or she may get that wrong.

But she will have to pass the club on at some stage, and we have to hope that the new owner is competent.

What I will say though is that there are dodgy British owners as well as dodgy non-British owners, I feel that people on the Pink'un like to point out the bad foreign ones,.... But some of worst ever examples have actually been British, like that chap who bought Notts County and signed Sol Campbell and Sven Goran Eriksson, when he couldn't afford to pay the milk bill. 

And Owen Oyston at Blackpool... or Mike Ashley at Newcastle with his Wonga sponsorship. 

So lets not just dismiss foreign owners out of hand, we could quite easily get a bad English owner too. People point out that Vincent Tan messed with the identify of Cardiff, but Mike Ashley did the same at Newcastle which everybody now associates with Sports Direct and Wonga. 

I'd choose the Russian Bournemouth owner over English Mike Ashley any day, and yet I'm sure if 15 years ago those two tried to buy Norwich you'd all be scared of the Russian and calling for Mike Ashley to get the keys. 

 

On 16/11/2019 at 22:15, nutty nigel said:

The Al-Hasawi family, Evangelos Marinakis ,Vincent Tan ,Tony Xia , Paul Suen , Carson Yeung, Assem Allan, Marcus Evans, Andrea Radrizzani, Massimo Cellino, Tony Fernandez, Lakshmi Mittal, Bernie Eccleston and Flavio Briatore, Dai Yongge , Dejphon Chansiri, Alexandre Gaydamak, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, , Lai Guochuan, The Venkys... etc... etc...  May as well try to establish those clubs in the PL for the good they have done with others....

But what about Bornmuff.....

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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I think everyone can see there is a problem finding a new owner who will look after a club properly and that it doesn't matter where in the world they come from.  What is the problem is that some people don't want the owners to pass the club on to someone who will pursue the same policies as at present, they want someone with money.....and then we get into the same argument that keeps going round on different threads.

My view is that ultimately the club could become more fan owned. Don't ask me how that could work because I have no idea, but if you accept that a club will be run in a self-sustaining fashion and that big investment is not going to be integral to it, then really anyone (as long as they are competent) could be in charge regardless of how much money they have - and that could be a fan or  fans.

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47 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

My view is that ultimately the club could become more fan owned. Don't ask me how that could work because I have no idea, but if you accept that a club will be run in a self-sustaining fashion and that big investment is not going to be integral to it, then really anyone (as long as they are competent) could be in charge regardless of how much money they have - and that could be a fan or  fans.

See, this I can get on board with. If we're going to be self-funding then put at least some of the club in the hands of the fans. 

The owners currently own about 53% of the club shares. They could happily pass TS 40% and then work with a supporters trust to take over the other 13% and get a fan voice on the board. I know the details are much more complicated than that but it would be a refreshing change.

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9 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Yeah but not all other things are equal.

QPR for example have never had gates over 20,000, Loftus Road only holds 18,000. 

They are naturally a smaller team, 10th in the Championship is above where you'd expect a team of their size to be. 

Its going to be very difficult for Delia to make the right decision when she decides who to pass the club onto, and she may get that right or she may get that wrong.

But she will have to pass the club on at some stage, and we have to hope that the new owner is competent.

What I will say though is that there are dodgy British owners as well as dodgy non-British owners, I feel that people on the Pink'un like to point out the bad foreign ones,.... But some of worst ever examples have actually been British, like that chap who bought Notts County and signed Sol Campbell and Sven Goran Eriksson, when he couldn't afford to pay the milk bill. 

And Owen Oyston at Blackpool... or Mike Ashley at Newcastle with his Wonga sponsorship. 

So lets not just dismiss foreign owners out of hand, we could quite easily get a bad English owner too. People point out that Vincent Tan messed with the identify of Cardiff, but Mike Ashley did the same at Newcastle which everybody now associates with Sports Direct and Wonga. 

I'd choose the Russian Bournemouth owner over English Mike Ashley any day, and yet I'm sure if 15 years ago those two tried to buy Norwich you'd all be scared of the Russian and calling for Mike Ashley to get the keys. 

 

Again I have made no mention of good or bad owners, you keep bringing that up. I also made no reference to nationality, you just put that in the mix. I just compared clubs and when you didn't like that I listed owners.

I didn't count Blackpool or Notts Co. beause I didn't consider them as comparable clubs. Although I did count Leeds and Villa who would certainly be historically bigger than us.

QPR are most certainly comparable as they are probably the club we have played most league games against. 130 times?

 

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22 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

It was one option Bowkett mooted but the reality was that our debts were manageable by other much less drastic means. The proof of that is that they were managed, and with a fairly standard arrangement by which repayment of the majority of the debt, to AXA, was put back to May 2022 (of course getting to the Premier League brought the date forward).

That AXA agreed to the deal and to that length of time hardly suggests we were in such financial trouble that selling the ground was ever really a serious option. This is not to downplay our difficulties but is is not unknown in business for incoming chairmen or CEOs to exaggerate the trouble they have inherited, for obvious reasons. More recently Webber has been doing the same.

 

Axa were very happy with the arrangement from memory . I think (not 100%) the debt was structured on 5% fixed interest which made it an incredibly good performer in the Axa portfolio - and ultimately (though never necessary) linked to an asset worth a multiple of the debt . I was always realise surprised when Axa triggered the Promotion repayment , if indeed they did or whether NCFC decided to pay it off. 

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

See, this I can get on board with. If we're going to be self-funding then put at least some of the club in the hands of the fans. 

The owners currently own about 53% of the club shares. They could happily pass TS 40% and then work with a supporters trust to take over the other 13% and get a fan voice on the board. I know the details are much more complicated than that but it would be a refreshing change.

I would say that arguably there is a strong moral case for doing that since the fans are the ones who are funding the club!

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Revenues up by £4million, player sales help profit

Manchester United latest financial results in full as club rely on sale of Romelu Lukaku to turn a profit

That is Manchester United.

Also

Manchester United have announced their net debt has increased by almost £140m in their latest financial figures, even after posting another revenue increase for the first quarter of 2019-20.

The startling increase in debt levels from £247.2m to £384.5m, a rise of 55.5 per cent, will do little to appease disgruntled fans, unhappy with the way the club is run by the Glazer family owners and executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward.

No. I don't believe it, they have disgruntled fans. I'm so proud we don't

 

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7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Qatar Sports Investments apparently very close to taking over Leeds. That has put us into National League North now.  

yes and all the time we refuse to consider such form of ownership we will get left behind.

I'm sure there will be many who will say "wouldn't want them" blah, blah, blah though. 

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yes and all the time we refuse to consider such form of ownership we will get left behind.

Do you know that to be true? Is anyone privvy to who has asked to take us over apart from Peter Cullum?

When you say such form, you mean an outfit that has pumped endless money into PSG. Why have they chosen Leeds over us? It isn't difficult to work out is it.

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1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

yes and all the time we refuse to consider such form of ownership we will get left behind.

Do you know that to be true? Is anyone privvy to who has asked to take us over apart from Peter Cullum?

When you say such form, you mean an outfit that has pumped endless money into PSG. Why have they chosen Leeds over us? It isn't difficult to work out is it.

Well I know Leeds are traditionally a bigger name but I would venture to suggest that one reason is because Leeds are available to buy and we are not. 

Unless of course our "task force" have made contact with them and enquired as to whether QSI are interested in buying a debt free, premier league club (and probably for a much lower price if our owners are to be believed) and they have said no, sorry we'd rather pay a lot more for a championship club with half a chance of getting to the prem. 

That said I am not sure how they would propose to get around the common ownership rules if Leeds do make it to the prem and ever look like qualifying for a UEFA competition. 

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