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3 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Therefore don't be anxious for tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. 

In that case lets just spend all our cash now- no point being anxious about tomorrow 😉 

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

If heaven forbid we get relegated what happens if we do not bounce back at the first attempt ? We will start losing money yet again.

I imagine our wage bill, should we get relegated this season, will be substantially lower than last time we were relegated. I imagine we'll be able to remain competitive for a couple seasons in the championship without having to sell. Of course, a long stay in the championship changes things but any club that has been in the championship for a long period of time has to sell players. Whether we could remain competitive 3 seasons down the line would depend on our transfer business.

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

It can only be a matter of time before someone quotes this, so I’m going to jump in first:

“Following promotion to the Premier League the club anticipates a substantial operating profit in the financial year to June 2020.”

Cue the “why didn’t we buy another central defender/midfield unit/cover for Pukki” posts .

We will still get told we have to sell when we come down though. Its a wonderfully circular argument. Don't spend when you go up in case you need it when you get relegated (thus making relegation more or less inevitable) then say you have to sell when you come down as you have players on a "premier league wage bill."

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PS Highest paid director £472,000. 

I assume this must be Stone who was only in post for 3 months of this financial year. Ridiculous.

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

PS Highest paid director £472,000. 

I assume this must be Stone who was only in post for 3 months of this financial year. Ridiculous.

Could it not be Webber?

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

Again, I'm not sure that is the case.

If we go down and don't bounce back before parachute payments run out we're in the exact same position as we were last season, even without excessive spending beforehand. We'd got the wage budget down to what appears to be a manageable level yet we're still talking about further player sales.

Yes, player wage budget was down to £24m and yet still looking at a £10m-£15m loss. 

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

I imagine our wage bill, should we get relegated this season, will be substantially lower than last time we were relegated. I imagine we'll be able to remain competitive for a couple seasons in the championship without having to sell. Of course, a long stay in the championship changes things but any club that has been in the championship for a long period of time has to sell players. Whether we could remain competitive 3 seasons down the line would depend on our transfer business.

This is the point exactly.  Last time under Alex Neil when we were relegated, it was said at the time we had the highest wage bill in Championship history, hence failure even to make the playoffs was pretty disastrous.  Obviously decisions were made to offer contracts which didn't reduce salaries sufficiently on relegation, to persuade people like Naismith and Klose to join us and with hindsight that was a huge mistake and indeed questions were raised on here at the time.

 

I am hopeful that Webber's approach means our wage bill will drop to a manageable level if relegated and we'll be able to use the parachute payments to re-jig the squad for a promotion push.

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

It can only be a matter of time before someone quotes this, so I’m going to jump in first:

“Following promotion to the Premier League the club anticipates a substantial operating profit in the financial year to June 2020.”

Cue the “why didn’t we buy another central defender/midfield unit/cover for Pukki” posts .

we will still get told we have to sell/don't have any money when we come down again though. Its a wonderfully circular argument. Don't spend when we go up because we need to save money in case we get relegated (thus making relegation almost inevitable) and then when we come down we will be told we have players on "premier league wages" so need to sell!

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

If heaven forbid we get relegated what happens if we do not bounce back at the first attempt ? We will start losing money yet again.

I imagine our wage bill, should we get relegated this season, will be substantially lower than last time we were relegated. I imagine we'll be able to remain competitive for a couple seasons in the championship without having to sell. Of course, a long stay in the championship changes things but any club that has been in the championship for a long period of time has to sell players. Whether we could remain competitive 3 seasons down the line would depend on our transfer business.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Could it not be Webber?

No he's not a director. I can only assume it must be Stone's salary and payoff. 

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

we will still get told we have to sell/don't have any money when we come down again though. Its a wonderfully circular argument. Don't spend when we go up because we need to save money in case we get relegated (thus making relegation almost inevitable) and then when we come down we will be told we have players on "premier league wages" so need to sell!

Not sure this is fair Jim.  The club clearly backed Alex Neil financially, which failed.  This time the decision was made over the summer to back our current squad with marginal changes.  Whether that is better than the approach the last time, time will tell.  My feeling is that you could take any season in the last 20 years and have simultaneous injuries to 3 CBs, goalkeeping injuries, and several other key players getting injured, and it would have made those seasons a lot worse than they were.

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3 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Not sure this is fair Jim.  The club clearly backed Alex Neil financially, which failed.  This time the decision was made over the summer to back our current squad with marginal changes.  Whether that is better than the approach the last time, time will tell.  My feeling is that you could take any season in the last 20 years and have simultaneous injuries to 3 CBs, goalkeeping injuries, and several other key players getting injured, and it would have made those seasons a lot worse than they were.

Fair point. We will wait and see but if they are going to employ this strategy then there is no justification for selling players and/or not spending decent money on transfers if we come down and are receiving parachute payments so if they start coming out with that sort of claim then it will get short shrift from the fans. 

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15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Its a bit misleading as those figures include somewhere between £15m and £20m of promotion bonuses and extra transfer fees triggered by promotion but do not include any extra premier league tv or commercial revenues. 

That said, it does lay bare how hard the "self funding" model is and what would lay in store for us if we remain in the premier league. they already had the player wage bill down at £24m and it would seem likely it would need to drop a bit further still if we stayed there for any great length of time. 

Jim, that £24m player wage bill is for a season in the Championship with a basic Championship income, and no parachute payments. I don't see that we would have to cut the wage bill further if we stayed in the PL. I assume it has gone up for this season, but only to a manageable level; and will revert to around £24m or a bit more if we are back in the Championship.

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15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Its a bit misleading as those figures include somewhere between £15m and £20m of promotion bonuses and extra transfer fees triggered by promotion but do not include any extra premier league tv or commercial revenues. 

That said, it does lay bare how hard the "self funding" model is and what would lay in store for us if we remain in the premier league. they already had the player wage bill down at £24m and it would seem likely it would need to drop a bit further still if we stayed there for any great length of time. 

Jim, that £24m player wage bill is for a season in the Championship with a basic Championship income, and no parachute payments. I don't see that we would have to cut the wage bill further if we stayed in the PL. I assume it has gone up for this season, but only to a manageable level; and will revert to around £24m or a bit more if we are back in the Championship.

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If we get relegated we will probably not need to sell any players, but will not have that much say in things as some of our better players may be cherry-picked - although at the moment they are not going to attract much attention from other clubs.

I think the model was to build up a promotion winning team from the Youth teams, and promotion last season was an unexpected bonus - a bonus financially but too soon in the plan, so the extra money will help in the long term, but we will not spend this season to stay in the Prem. Why? Because we haven't got the squad (or money to buy that squad) for years 2 and 3 in the Prem.

Is it a risk? Of course. If we are relegated we may not get promoted again, but we'll be a Championship team with no debt, and long term that will be a very good position to be in as the current situation (most clubs having huge debts and running at a loss) is unsustainable.

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Bank the cash. Subsidise player wages in the parachute payment period. Dispose of any saleable player assets. Scramble to avoid administration. Without new ownership - who can underwrite the adjustment period between the PL and chumps - the cycle of missed opportunity and under-achievement will continue.

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

If anything these figures explain to everyone why Webber is doing it the way he's doing it this season..

Well £10m of that is the huge bonus that we dished out to players and staff upon promotion.

Presumably we'll be doing exactly the same if we go up again next season.

44 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We released a fair bit of deadwood in the summer as well, Naismith the biggest but also Jarvis, Wildschut and Pinto.

Bit harsh to include Pinto as deadwood, he was the same player had just lost his place in the side to an up and coming player and wasn't ideal for our system. 

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37 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I imagine our wage bill, should we get relegated this season, will be substantially lower than last time we were relegated. I imagine we'll be able to remain competitive for a couple seasons in the championship without having to sell.

I prefer to deal in fact that's relying on imagination.

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27 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, that £24m player wage bill is for a season in the Championship with a basic Championship income, and no parachute payments. I don't see that we would have to cut the wage bill further if we stayed in the PL. I assume it has gone up for this season, but only to a manageable level; and will revert to around £24m or a bit more if we are back in the Championship.

Sorry Purple, that was a typo and should have said if we remain in the championship!

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As long as we can yo-yo between the Championship and the Premier League we will be able to maintain the present level of spending. Selling the odd player here and there when we are relegated, yet still retaining the ability to be competitive in the promotion stakes.

Anybody else see the problem with this?

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

That you have to seize the opportunity to try and establish yourself not portray it as an enjoyable ride and just sit back and make the most of it while you can. There is no point in being promoted if your ambition to push on is zilch.

But surely last time we 'pushed on' by signing the likes of Naismith? Bigger clubs with bigger transfer budgets than us have gone down, leaving larger black holes in their finances than the one we've just dug ourselves out of. The family that owns Stoke are billionaires, but would you trade places with them?

'Pushing on' is much more likely to perpetuate the 'binge and purge' cycle of spending big then having to cull expenditure drastically, with potentially catastrophic consequences. With this model, we're building for a sustainable future when most around us are throwing ever more ridiculous amounts of money at being one of the 11 surviving clubs outside the top six.

We could gamble everything on the vain hope of becoming the next Leicester, or we could safeguard our future by investing in our Academy - an Academy that has produced colossal value just through the graduates of the last three years. What's the combined market value of Lewis, Aarons, Godfrey and Cantwell, would you say?

We will never be apex predators. Our best young players will move on to bigger and better things. That's just the reality for any club outside the top six, and we've taken sensible and practical steps to develop these players alongside a distinct footballing philosophy that has already delivered a Championship title against long odds.

Summary: we knew there would be a hole in the finances last year due to the absence of parachute payments coupled with the 'sins of the past' that Webber mentioned when he took over. Let's take that on the chin, and be grateful that Akin Famewo has signed a new long-term contract today. OTBC.

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13 minutes ago, Highland Canary said:

Without new ownership - who can underwrite the adjustment period between the PL and chumps

This is the key point.

The self-funding model means we always need to keep a wage budget we can slash down to £20-25m within two years, meaning we'll always have to be extra cautious in the top division. 

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1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

We will never be apex predators. Our best young players will move on to bigger and better things. That's just the reality for any club outside the top six, and we've taken sensible and practical steps to develop these players alongside a distinct footballing philosophy that has already delivered a Championship title against long odds.

Summary: we knew there would be a hole in the finances last year due to the absence of parachute payments coupled with the 'sins of the past' that Webber mentioned when he took over. Let's take that on the chin, and be grateful that Akin Famewo has signed a new long-term contract today. OTBC.

A right old quandary but thats why things are never dull at CR.😀

 

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So can some of the posters who are so sure we have to have new owners suggest who they might be? While I am not saying the current owners are infallible, they are trying to match peoples expectations with slender means. Maybe if we had been a mid table Championship side for 20 years the expectations wouldn't be so high. But there again, I am confident that many of those with high expectations wouldn't be supporting us if we were.

And if we are making a loss but not overspending then that just shows what it takes to run a football club. Any proper suggestions as to how we change that? And yes we know about a super rich owner.

That there was a loss is obvious but not as bad as the balance sheet made it look.

As has been pointed out a good £15M went on promotion and capital outlays.

So while some are keen on signing marquee players they must realise that there is more than a transfer fee attached to it. Just look how big our wage bill was with "Championship" players.

And it has been spelled out not to expect to much in January.

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1 hour ago, BobLoz3 said:

It's worth noting that these figures don't include our first instalment of money for being in the Prem.

As they say in the article, about a third of the £95 million will be attributed putting us back in a better looking position.

Still, looking at these numbers, you can see why Webber was so concerned when he came in and mentioned that we were very close to administration. I imagine things will look healthier eventually and the investment in youth will prove to be crucial to us if we want to continue being a self-funding club.

They also include millions that would not have been payable had we not been promoted ie promotion bonuses and payments to other clubs where they were due money in transfer contracts ie Buendia. They also include the repaying of the Colney bond. Those worthless players ( based on when we signed them, promoted them from the academy ) are now assets of millions of pounds. If you add those assets in ( as most businesses would ) this would be a remarkable set of results. 

It seems Webber has turned our clubs finances around. Wish I could buy something for free on Gumtree ( ala Pukki ) to find it worth 20 - 30 million a year later. Unless you are Barcelona, Real Madrid or maybe Man City all clubs are selling clubs as players keep wanting to take the next step until they reach the very top.

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Sorry Purple, that was a typo and should have said if we remain in the championship!

Well I did wonder! And it is a fair point (unlike some of the uninformed kneejerk miserabilism here🤬) although my guess would be that with the extra emphasis on the academy and finding good young prospects we would be able to bridge any loss by selling only one player each summer.

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We've had the same people demanding new "investor" type owners for the last ten years. Even though we have out performed the majority of clubs with these owners throughout that time.

 

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31 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

But surely last time we 'pushed on' by signing the likes of Naismith? Bigger clubs with bigger transfer budgets than us have gone down, leaving larger black holes in their finances than the one we've just dug ourselves out of. The family that owns Stoke are billionaires, but would you trade places with them?

'Pushing on' is much more likely to perpetuate the 'binge and purge' cycle of spending big then having to cull expenditure drastically, with potentially catastrophic consequences. With this model, we're building for a sustainable future when most around us are throwing ever more ridiculous amounts of money at being one of the 11 surviving clubs outside the top six.

We could gamble everything on the vain hope of becoming the next Leicester, or we could safeguard our future by investing in our Academy - an Academy that has produced colossal value just through the graduates of the last three years. What's the combined market value of Lewis, Aarons, Godfrey and Cantwell, would you say?

We will never be apex predators. Our best young players will move on to bigger and better things. That's just the reality for any club outside the top six, and we've taken sensible and practical steps to develop these players alongside a distinct footballing philosophy that has already delivered a Championship title against long odds.

Summary: we knew there would be a hole in the finances last year due to the absence of parachute payments coupled with the 'sins of the past' that Webber mentioned when he took over. Let's take that on the chin, and be grateful that Akin Famewo has signed a new long-term contract today. OTBC.

I think its pushing it a touch to say that our academy has produced Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis to be honest, or indeed Maddison. We pinched them from other clubs once they were well progressed through their academies. I take the fundamental point about the academy though but Palace are about to spend £20m on their, all the prem clubs have done or are doing it as well. We are not unique in that respect and indeed are spending relatively small amounts in comparison. 

I suppose though that what these figures do show is how important bringing players through the academy or poaching them when they hit the Aarons age bracket is going to be for us if we become a championship club as we will need to churn out at least one a season to make the first team and then sell. Webber may therefore ultimately be judged long term on the success of the recent academy recruits brought into the academy more than the first team recruits! Lets hope there are a few good ones. The results of the older academy teams do not appear to have been great of late but there are lots out on loan at the U23 age group.

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