Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Yellow Green

What’s the problem?

Recommended Posts

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Who has said Farke is out of his depth? He's struggling a bit certainly but I haven't seen anyone call for him to be sacked or replaced and i'm certainly not.

It is indisputable, however, that we have never managed to mark players as well as we should  or defend set pieces well enough in the last 3 seasons, aside from possibly the spell where we went 3 at the back. That looked our best system defensively and in that respect I have some sympathy for Farke because he doesn't have the players available to play it. 

The OP for one...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, hogesar said:

The OP for one...

Ah I thought you were replying to me there.

I don't think he's out of his depth but if he does have a weakness I think its organising the defence which is strange because his sides in Germany tended to win a lot of tight games 1-0 or draw a lot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A combination of bad luck on the injury front and misguided belief that the difference between the top of the Championship and the lower half of the Prem was quite small.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Thought we should have spent every possible penny on 2 new CBs in the summer and nudged Godrey & Zimmers down as their understudies. 

Not hindsight.

Obvious that THAT back 4, which was leaky in the 2nd tier, would be too flimsy at this level.

Whoa there... you are seriously suggesting dropping/replacing Godfrey?! That's absolutely bonkers. We got 99 problems, but the Ben ain't one.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yellow Green said:

Championship winning squad. 
Sheff Utd spent around the same as us and are flying. Farke is out of his depth I’m afraid...

Farke isn’t the clubs finance backing

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

If we had had every player fit for every game we have played I don't things would have been that much different.

Virtually the whole squad, with the possible exception of 3 or 4 players at most, are no where near good enough for this League.

Add to that that we must be the easiest team in the league to play against because the tactics/formation employed by Farke are so predictable.

 

Are you campaigning to have him sacked again ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Whoa there... you are seriously suggesting dropping/replacing Godfrey?! That's absolutely bonkers. We got 99 problems, but the Ben ain't one.

The more I’ve seen of him this season the more I’ve thought he would be better for the team in defensive midfield with two experienced centre backs behind him. I know Farke thinks his best position centre back but I think he’s what we’re missing in midfield 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Whoa there... you are seriously suggesting dropping/replacing Godfrey?! That's absolutely bonkers. We got 99 problems, but the Ben ain't one.

I'm not advocating dropping him but if you look at the goals we are conceding its most often him that is getting caught the wrong side of his man from crosses so he's certainly got things to work on. I think the point of the post was that it was very risky relying on a guy who is learning his trade starting week in, week out for us in the top division, especially when you have a defence that includes other youngsters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Jim Smith said:

I'm not advocating dropping him but if you look at the goals we are conceding its most often him that is getting caught the wrong side of his man from crosses so he's certainly got things to work on. I think the point of the post was that it was very risky relying on a guy who is learning his trade starting week in, week out for us in the top division, especially when you have a defence that includes other youngsters. 

I see what you and JF are saying (similar points), but given what he's been up against I think he's acquitted himself superbly on balance. Amadou was signed to play DM and will do once Zimbo is back after the international break. With Zimbo alongside him Ben will only improve. He's a fantastic talent and definitely better at CB as far as I'm concerned. It's been one hell of an ask for three of our back four being U21s and all the experienced defenders out injured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KeiranShikari said:

It's almost as if we were on our 6th choice central defender today.

 

Can’t understand why we aren’t using Byram at centre back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I see what you and JF are saying (similar points), but given what he's been up against I think he's acquitted himself superbly on balance. Amadou was signed to play DM and will do once Zimbo is back after the international break. With Zimbo alongside him Ben will only improve. He's a fantastic talent and definitely better at CB as far as I'm concerned. It's been one hell of an ask for three of our back four being U21s and all the experienced defenders out injured.

I think Godfrey would bring more to that defensive midfield position than Amadou. His run out of defence today being an example of the drive he has to push the team forwards. In that defensive midfield position he has the physicality we’re missing, genuine pace, passing and tackling and drive. I’d love to see him there with say Zimmerman and Klose behind him, obviously can’t happen now 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, JF said:

I think Godfrey would bring more to that defensive midfield position than Amadou. His run out of defence today being an example of the drive he has to push the team forwards. In that defensive midfield position he has the physicality we’re missing, genuine pace, passing and tackling and drive. I’d love to see him there with say Zimmerman and Klose behind him, obviously can’t happen now 

We signed him as a DM when he was 17, and Farke saw enough to decide he wanted him as a CB. I've seen nothing to convince me that was the wrong call; he has all the requirements of a modern CB. But as you say, it's a moot point as we're not going to go with Zimbo and Hanley when they're fit again, as Godfrey is clearly a better option than Hanley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

We signed him as a DM when he was 17, and Farke saw enough to decide he wanted him as a CB. I've seen nothing to convince me that was the wrong call; he has all the requirements of a modern CB. But as you say, it's a moot point as we're not going to go with Zimbo and Hanley when they're fit again, as Godfrey is clearly a better option than Hanley.

 

7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

We signed him as a DM when he was 17, and Farke saw enough to decide he wanted him as a CB. I've seen nothing to convince me that was the wrong call; he has all the requirements of a modern CB. But as you say, it's a moot point as we're not going to go with Zimbo and Hanley when they're fit again, as Godfrey is clearly a better option than Hanley.

Yeah I know. But sometimes it’s not about where his best position is, it’s about what would benefit the team more and I think he’s exactly what we need there. As said though, until we’ve two fit centre backs it’s a moot point 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Are you campaigning to have him sacked again ? 

Not at all.

The only person who will get Farke sacked is Farke.

But I doubt if it will happen anyway.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, JF said:

Yeah I know. But sometimes it’s not about where his best position is, it’s about what would benefit the team more and I think he’s exactly what we need there. As said though, until we’ve two fit centre backs it’s a moot point 

Remember we haven't seen Amadou play there yet, though, and Farke signed him specifically for that purpose.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel for Farke as he really hasn't had the backing to make us competitive He's being asked to polish a turd at the moment. Webber has done a great job in many areas of the club, such as Colney, which has to be applauded, but has really underestimated what is required at Premier League level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 points from me one maybe more popular than the other......but I think Byram needs to come in for Aarons for a bit. His performance vs Man City was better than any of Aarons so far this season...it may do a bit of good for him, as with Cantwell to come out of the firing line for a while.

Vrancic....not sure if Friday is too soon for him or if its more likely after the int. break ...but I think we need him, I just dont know where?. Deep lying or no.10?.

We simply cannot go on deploying McLean in a deep midfield role as we will not win a single midfield battle in this league. Do we need both Tettey AND Trybull there?...is it too defensive?...Watford at home almost certainly, can we play with Vrancic AND Leitner?...which one holds and which plays more advanced?

Including Steipermann we have 6 midfielders for 3 positions (excluding Amadou whilst he's needed elsewhere)

Tettey Trybull Leitner Vrancic McLean Steipermann

is any combination of these good enough?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although we all seem to be deeply concerned at the moment, there are lots of good points being made attempting to explain the team's struggles so far. As usual, Ricardo's hit the nail on the head.

- Arising from the positivity & euphoria of such an exciting promotion, it looks like too much faith has been put into a young & inexperienced (at PL level) team. They earned their 'crack' at the PL and were deservedly rewarded with improved contracts, but this team rarely looked truly solid defensively throughout last season.

- It looks like even the bottom half/bottom six teams have too much for us (thus far). I agree that it looks like we have underestimated the quality of the bottom half teams (or perhaps overestimated the quality of top-end championship - probably a bit of both)

- Defensive injuries have ravaged flexibility, options, confidence & positivity. We can't be that surprised that Aarons, Godfrey & Lewis + AN Other being screened by Trybull, McLean or Leitner are leaving us exposed. As much as I love Alex Tettey, the fact that we're still praying his knees don't buckle indicates that we haven't really learned much from the recent past.

- Other than centre-back, things aren't that bad injury-wise now, yet we're still showing the same kinds of frailties and naivety that has been witnessed since the first half at Anfield and even throughout patches of last season, e.g. defending at set-pieces, poor prevention of crosses, ineffective clearances, high-risk passes in dangerous areas, failure to track runners, getting caught too high up the pitch... As much as it pains me to say it, perhaps the majority of the players simply aren't able for this standard yet.

- After all the goals shipped last season, I don't think you needed to be a clairvoyant to predict that we might look suspect defensively in the top flight. 3 youngsters learning their trade in the back 4. An injury-prone Klose. Zimmermann made huge strides over last year, looked like he was made of granite and his injuries have certainly weakened the 'unit',  but I suspect we would be only marginally more solid if he were available - it's a huge step up for him too. I would say even Grant Hanley was bracing himself to be an emergency back-up this year with perhaps 10-15 appearances and if rumours are to be believed, he was almost shipped back to the Champo which tells its own story. I would say it's very likely a target (or targets) at CB didn't materialise over the summer.

- Although I knew next to nothing about him, I was excited by the Amadou signing as DM & CB were, for me at the time, the areas most in need of upgrading along with a stronger offensive wide option (which I hoped might have been Roberts) and he seemed to be the new Tettey while providing CB cover. We're yet to see him in midfield (Crawley? can't remember) and the damage may well be done before we do. Which of course is directly linked to the injuries again.

- Pukki is a marked man & Buendia has been identified as our key creative outlet. Both are being nullified and looking increasingly isolated & frustrated. But this should in theory create space and openings for others but I'm not sure Stiepermann & Cantwell have enough guile or are clinical enough to take advantage. Hernandez brings something different but even last year in a team that was creating chances in abundance, he could often be wasteful, take the wrong option or lose the possession. We haven't had a chance to judge Drmic properly yet but he might get eventually his opportunity in a team devoid of confidence. Clear-cut chances are getting increasingly scarce as the weeks go by.

- For me, I still don't think the main issues lie in the young back 4 or up top. The timing of these injuries have robbed us of seeing the team at full-strength but I think we're being found out through the middle. I don't think that Trybull, McLean or Stiepermann are up to the standard required and I think that Leitner is unable to dictate because of this. We shouldn't still be relying on Tetts & I don't think he was expected to be a starter this season. Vrancic may or may not improve things but again he'll be coming in to a struggling team and he will probably also need time to adjust to the increased standard around him, time we can ill afford. 

- It's natural to get frustrated after this number of convincing defeats. Even after the summer window closed, I expected us to be more competitive in most games. At this point there are most definitely not three worse teams and relegation looks extremely likely. We'll see how the table looks after Watford at home. It's looking more & more like the plan since promotion was confirmed was to give these lads a stab at the PL and see what happens, while pretty much planning for an immediate return to the Championship, but trousering the Sky millions to improve the club's physical infrastructure under the 'self-sustaining' model while continuing to embed the possession-based playing philosophy throughout the club with an emphasis on acquiring, nurturing & developing promising youth. It may well work out but it's a very risky assumption that promotion will be achieved again. Last year was special. It's almost as if promotion was attained too early! Webber's stated aim of consolidating the club as a "top-25" mainstay is being realised but perhaps a great opportunity is being missed right before our eyes. 

I'm normally in the glass half-full section but I feel that the damage will be done before January when it will be too late to remedy the problems or sign the requisite "quality." I really hope Farke can find the balance and turn it around, but my faith is wilting. However if Watford can be surmounted, perhaps the platform may then be ...................................!!! And on we go!

OTBC

 

apologies for length of post 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, paddycanary said:

 It's natural to get frustrated after this number of convincing defeats. Even after the summer window closed, I expected us to be more competitive in most games. At this point there are most definitely not three worse teams and relegation looks extremely likely. We'll see how the table looks after Watford at home. It's looking more & more like the plan since promotion was confirmed was to give these lads a stab at the PL and see what happens, while pretty much planning for an immediate return to the Championship, but trousering the Sky millions to improve the club's physical infrastructure under the 'self-sustaining' model while continuing to embed the possession-based playing philosophy throughout the club with an emphasis on acquiring, nurturing & developing promising youth. It may well work out but it's a very risky assumption that promotion will be achieved again. Last year was special. It's almost as if promotion was attained too early! Webber's stated aim of consolidating the club as a "top-25" mainstay is being realised but perhaps a great opportunity is being missed right before our eyes. 

You have literally typed out my brain here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

I don't understand this Vrancic saviour talk.

He was a bit-part player in the championship.  He won't be setting the Premier league alight.

Wish he would, but it will not happen. 

He may not end up being our saviour but he was immense last season and played a huge part in getting us over the line. We were struggling without him at the season end, and when he finally featured he salvaged a vital point against Sheff W and then that goal against Blackburn. And then there’s Leeds away... I’m hopeful he will make a difference. Because I need some hope from somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vrancic finished last season with aplomb. But it was due to his skill not his physicality and that isn’t what is missing at present. We need a couple of bigger units to stop us getting bullied off the ball in midfield. Vrancic won’t do that though he might slot in where stieperman is struggling  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest problem has been that Farke’s hands have been well and truly tied.

The punitive injury list has forced him to play players out of position and unable to try out any ‘Plan B’.

Maybe three central defenders and two of Amadou/Tettey/Trybull would have allowed Lewis and Aarons more freedom to attack, which was a key element to our success last season.

Sheffield United have started well. But if Farke had been able to start all eleven games with the same seven defensive players, losing the first one to an injury after 78minutes yesterday, then I’m sure they would have built up a better understanding, gained confidence, and shipped fewer goals. 
 

And if they hadn’t, we would know for sure that the current group of players are not good enough for the PL.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Farke has worked miracles with the assets he has to hand. Last year’s promotion was probably the biggest managerial achievement in the club’s history and, certainly, over the period since the early 70s when I was old enough to attend Carrow Road.

There remains a significant gap between the championship and PL. That Webber and the club believed we could go again with last year’s defence - we all knew its frailties - is laughable.

But, if and until, we have owners capable - and willing - to invest we will continue to be the embarrassing, PL whipping boys. But, no doubt, the Carrow Road crowd will continue to be both happy and, probably clappy, with our level of achievement. We’re a little club, punching above our weight it will no doubt be argued, and shouldn’t even aspire to compete with big clubs, such as Bournemouth, Burnley and others.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you got over whatever mystery illness you had that stops you from typing when City are doing well, Highland.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, ricardo said:

A combination of bad luck on the injury front and misguided belief that the difference between the top of the Championship and the lower half of the Prem was quite small.

If that is correct, how does one explain Sheffield United?  Finished behind us last season, playing the same core players this season and currently 6th.  Unless people are now suggesting that we massively overperformed last season and Sheffield United underperformed?

Other people suggesting all of a sudden that, bar 2 or 3, all of our players are out of their depth.  Yet Sheff Utd are currently thriving.

I think there is more to it than that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

If that is correct, how does one explain Sheffield United?  Finished behind us last season, playing the same core players this season and currently 6th.  Unless people are now suggesting that we massively overperformed last season and Sheffield United underperformed?

Other people suggesting all of a sudden that, bar 2 or 3, all of our players are out of their depth.  Yet Sheff Utd are currently thriving.

I think there is more to it than that. 

Sheff u had a tight defence last season,  we didn't.  We are now  up against  better opponents with less defensive resources,  hardly surprising we're  struggling.  

Just imagine the scenario... title  outsiders ( just as we are survival outsider) Arsenal,  who play a neat fast passing style have only one fit CB, he is young and inexperienced. No one would be surprised  if they  failed to win the league, so I don't really understand the hand wringing and finger of blame pointing at our struggles.  We had enough up front last season  to compensate for our defensive  frailties,  this season we are up against better quality  all over the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a cursory glance at the final table last year, we only won one game more than the Blades over the season, drew two more and conceded 57 to their 41. Due to our ability to create plenty of clear-cut opportunities and to come from behind in games, we were marginally the better side overall but they were certainly more solid defensively. At this point in the season, they look to have adjusted more efficiently, however it is impossible to ignore how we've been hamstrung by injuries. But I don't believe it's using hindsight to suggest that we rode the crest of a wave into this season and have knowingly proceeded with a suspect defence. Of course it's impossible to know any different, but I suspect we would be having a similar discussion if all of Zimm, Klose & Hanley were fit and available. Maybe a few points better off but still mired in the bottom 6. 

Farke has shown an ability to reappraise, adjust and be pragmatic in his time here. But the evidence so far this season seems to indicate that being consistently competitive, even at home, looks beyond this squad. We're no longer clinical up top, soft in the middle & leaky at the back. The hopeful gamble over the summer window has left us a bit short, compounded by a disproportionate spate of injuries. If competitiveness, general performances and results don't pick up, frustration & negativity will get a firm grip and we've seen before where that ends up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×