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TeemuVanBasten

"We were not physical enough" - Farke

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There's nothing wrong with possession football providing you do something with that possession and it gets results.

Last season we were, this season, in the majority of games, we ain't.

It hasn't taken long for PL managers to figure how to stop us playing how we want to.

Our passing game has fallen apart because we are being forced into errors and mistakes.

This causes pressure and that is leading to even more unforced errors because players are panicking when they get the ball.

They're not looking, they're not thinking and they're trying to make too many difficult passes.

They need to slow down, get their heads up and get back to playing the simple pass..

 

 

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Or people are presenting horribly simplistic solutions as self-certified pub wisdom. 
 

We can attract young, unproven, technical talent because we play such players. We don’t have a lot of money. Quality technical and big physical players are very expensive and everyone chases them.
 

We have no money so we go after players with chequered careers, injury risks or those who have travelled without settling or - excellently - quality young players starved of opportunity (that de-facto others have rejected or not opened the door to).
 

Whatever we choose we want players who can play a fluid, expansive, possession-oriented game. 
 

To bring in physical players therefore either means the binary of bringing in players who are big and physical (and perhaps not so technical, thus undermining the model) or bringing in players who are big and physical and technical (which every half-baked analyst from a 3rd tier side can identify. They cost a fortune and everybody chases them, thus undermining the model - again). 
 

We are on a model on the Auxerre-Ajax-Barcelona spectrum of long term methodology and philosophy. We will prefer players we have bred and talent we have schooled. 
 

If we can have all the assets plus physicality of course we will welcome it with open arms. Of course equal brilliant and superior physical beats just equal brilliant most times. 
 

To change means so much more than trite pub landlord solutions and simplicities. 
 

We were incredible last year. It was a wonderful unexpected miracle. We didn’t then spend any money. Other Premier teams already had lots of money and lots of great players. 
 

Our methodology is refreshing and will maximise our chances and improve our players based on our available parameters. 
 

Repeatedly upsetting the odds against teams and players that are better is unlikely however. You must believe it and you will sometimes achieve it, though let us not stake our houses on rainbows and unicorns, rather let us enjoy victories against Man City and the wonderful memories of a beautiful and - let’s not forget - the already against the odds and unexpected success of last year.

We are pocketing the cash to develop the model. A pragmatic choice and one that has momentum behind it, though is borne as much out of necessity as choice.

We either go into a gunfight with a knife or we try some innovative guerilla tactics that may not work, though which do not see Steven Naismith in the reserves, but rather see Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Cantwell et al receive an unbuyable education, likely enhancing their values (perhaps exponentially) and ‘proving’ to the world that we meant it when we said ‘come here (excellent young, underused player) and you’ll be given a fair chance and a great education.

 This way the next Maddison comes to us too. And slightly better young players are attracted than even before. And so it continues. 
 

 Or you could spend a load of cash on big lads that are a bit worse than everybody else’s big lads, with money we don’t have and putting off all the young gifted players  that we haven’t yet signed that are crucial to our sustainability under the current model.

 Parma

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37 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Or people are presenting horribly simplistic solutions as self-certified pub wisdom. 
 

We can attract young, unproven, technical talent because we play such players. We don’t have a lot of money. Quality technical and big physical players are very expensive and everyone chases them.
 

We have no money so we go after players with chequered careers, injury risks or those who have travelled without settling or - excellently - quality young players starved of opportunity (that de-facto others have rejected or not opened the door to).
 

Whatever we choose we want players who can play a fluid, expansive, possession-oriented game. 
 

To bring in physical players therefore either means the binary of bringing in players who are big and physical (and perhaps not so technical, thus undermining the model) or bringing in players who are big and physical and technical (which every half-baked analyst from a 3rd tier side can identify. They cost a fortune and everybody chases them, thus undermining the model - again). 
 

We are on a model on the Auxerre-Ajax-Barcelona spectrum of long term methodology and philosophy. We will prefer players we have bred and talent we have schooled. 
 

If we can have all the assets plus physicality of course we will welcome it with open arms. Of course equal brilliant and superior physical beats just equal brilliant most times. 
 

To change means so much more than trite pub landlord solutions and simplicities. 
 

We were incredible last year. It was a wonderful unexpected miracle. We didn’t then spend any money. Other Premier teams already had lots of money and lots of great players. 
 

Our methodology is refreshing and will maximise our chances and improve our players based on our available parameters. 
 

Repeatedly upsetting the odds against teams and players that are better is unlikely however. You must believe it and you will sometimes achieve it, though let us not stake our houses on rainbows and unicorns, rather let us enjoy victories against Man City and the wonderful memories of a beautiful and - let’s not forget - the already against the odds and unexpected success of last year.

We are pocketing the cash to develop the model. A pragmatic choice and one that has momentum behind it, though is borne as much out of necessity as choice.

We either go into a gunfight with a knife or we try some innovative guerilla tactics that may not work, though which do not see Steven Naismith in the reserves, but rather see Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Cantwell et al receive an unbuyable education, likely enhancing their values (perhaps exponentially) and ‘proving’ to the world that we meant it when we said ‘come here (excellent young, underused player) and you’ll be given a fair chance and a great education.

This way the next Maddison comes to us too. And slightly better young players are attracted than even before. And so it continues. 
 

Or you could spend a load of cash on big lads that are a bit worse than everybody else’s big lads, with money we don’t have and putting off all the young gifted players  that we haven’t yet signed that are crucial to our sustainability under the current model.

Parma

 

This is all beginning to sound a little bit delusional and cultish. 

Mate, we gave Grant Hanley a four and a half year contract just 11 and a half months ago, and tried to sign Jordan Rhodes 5 months ago. We aren't the next Ajax.

You get plaudits for getting out of the Championship playing nice football, that's soon forgotten when you become the leagues whipping boys. 

Wilder will get the plaudits for managing to stay up on a shoestring. We won't get any for being relegated on a shoestring. 

We had a decent crop of youngsters and all got a bit excited, no evidence that it's a conveyor belt. 

I respect anybody that is annoyed by my current pessimism and waning belief, but only if they can see that on the other extreme are some complete fantasists like you. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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41 minutes ago, Rolf Harris said:

Why does position matter? The argument was about size. It was simply pointed out that Aguero doesn't get bullied by big defenders. So in the same context why would it matter your size against a DM. 

Position matters because of the first few sentences of the first post in this thread. 

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2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Really? Please do link to quote,  if possible. I only  remember  both playing down expectations  . But hey ho I've been wrong  before. July 1968 I think it was.😉

It was a video and I'm not hunting for it. 

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3 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think, shockingly, you've either mis-read something or not read it in context. Webber didn't think promotion was a realistic option in Farke's first season in charge.

If I do invest considerable time finding this video and suceed will you and westcorkcanary spend ten seconds acknowledging that I'm right, or would you ignore it? That's why I won't bother. 

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The point is that Barcelona do have the money.

They could buy technically brilliant and overtly physical if they wished.

They were nevertheless better than everyone else, without overt physicality. 

Therefore quality is the determining factor.  

As we proved in the Championship. A typically physical league.

Parma

Edited by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

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Physical as Farke means it has nothing to do with replacing the young players with big units. It refers to balance, how you use your body and not being intimidated by mere size, name, profile or stature (as Barcelona are not).

He was well aware of the height, weight and dimensions of Buendia, Cantwell et al before the season started.

Physical as he meant it was actually a psychological call-to-arms to his players. 
 

Parma

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26 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

This way the next Maddison comes to us too. 

The first Maddison came to us because we wrote Coventry a cheque for over £4m the last time we were promoted to this league. 

Webber hasn't been prepared to spend that sort of cash. The "next Maddison" won't be coming to us because nobody is going to give us a teenager from their first team to us for free. 

We paid a seven figure sum for Godfrey too. They were signed because of the lack of quality coming through our academy, McNally said that himself. 

They were both playing senior football when purchased by us and were each purchased for seven figure sums. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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8 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The point is that Barcelona do have the money.

They could buy technically brilliant and overtly physical if they wished.

They were nevertheless better than everyone else, without overt physicality. 

Therefore quality is the determining factor.  

As we proved in the Championship. A typically physical league.

Parma

I'm not asking for us to become overtly physical, just average physical for the league we are in will do. 

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25 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If I do invest considerable time finding this video and suceed will you and westcorkcanary spend ten seconds acknowledging that I'm right, or would you ignore it? That's why I won't bother. 

It'll likely be a comment in relation to finances or something which you've taken, like I say, out of context. That's if it exists at all. I have my doubts.

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1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Physical as Farke means it has nothing to do with replacing the young players with big units. It refers to balance, how you use your body and not being intimidated by mere size, name, profile or stature (as Barcelona are not).

He was well aware of the height, weight and dimensions of Buendia, Cantwell et al before the season started.

Physical as he meant it was actually a psychological call-to-arms to his players. 
 

Parma

Excellent posts as ever Parma.

'Strength' in football is dependent on co-ordination, timing, reflexes, acceleration, concentration ... & determination. Like everything else there's a compromise, but sheer muscularity will not get you far at the top level.

Of course it goes without saying that if you've got all the aforesaid attributes AND superior body strength then you will be the better player. 

P.S. Do you still think Tettey lacks discipline??

 

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3 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

We are on a model on the Auxerre-Ajax-Barcelona spectrum of long term methodology and philosophy.

Auxerre finished 15th in the French second tier last season. This season they sit in 12th in the French second tier and are owned  by a Chinese packaging company. Was that the long term plan? 

Ajax are listed on the stock exchange and have been since 1998, the biggest shareholder is an insurance company and other major shareholders include various investment funds including Invesco funds. Basically the Dutch Man Utd, is that something you aspire to?

Barcelona is literally the richest club in the world by revenue and recently became the first club in the world to achieve $1bn in annual revenues, they are in a different stratosphere. They also have various geopolitical things going on in Spain which make players much more loyal to certain clubs; there is a reason why Catalan children don't want to sign for a Madrid based club. Its the same in Basque too. We don't have that in the UK, James McLean making a **** out himself is as bad as it gets.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The first Maddison came to us because we wrote Coventry a cheque for over £4m the last time we were promoted to this league. 

Webber hasn't been prepared to spend that sort of cash. The "next Maddison" won't be coming to us because nobody is going to give us a teenager from their first team to us for free. 

We paid a seven figure sum for Godfrey too. They were signed because of the lack of quality coming through our academy, McNally said that himself. 

They were both playing senior football when purchased by us and were each purchased for seven figure sums. 

At the risk of repeating myself Rocky Bushiri has been playing senior football. Was he seven figures?

Edited by nutty nigel

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55 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 

Barcelona is literally the richest club in the world by revenue and recently became the first club in the world to achieve $1bn in annual revenues

Is this the modern useage of “Literally” or is it actually true? Deloitte annual money in football report stated in Jan 2019 that Real Madrid have the highest income at 750 euros.? 
Barcelona have projected their income for season end 2019 is as you say above $1bn revenue but the Spanish clubs have a crafty habit of using revenue projections for loans etc. I’d wait and see what the good folk at Deloitte’s make of it when the figures properly get released .

Edited by Graham Paddons Beard
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14 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

At the risk of repeating myself Rocky Bushiri has been playing senior football. Was he seven figures?

Fee was reported in Belgium as 100,000 euros and he hasn't got a single minute of football for Blackpool since August.

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18 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Is this the modern useage of “Literally” or is it actually true? Deloitte annual money in football report stated in Jan 2019 that Real Madrid have the highest income at 750 euros.? 

Mate my Subbuteo team has an income of 750 euros.

The answer though is that it was true in 2018, but Real Madrid surpassed them in 2019. It remains true that Barcelona were the first club to achieve an annual revenue of $1bn (that's dollars, not euros), and that was in 2018. 

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4 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If I do invest considerable time finding this video and suceed will you and westcorkcanary spend ten seconds acknowledging that I'm right, or would you ignore it? That's why I won't bother. 

This is actually the opposite of what Webber has been saying since he joined. When he was first here he actually said that promotion to the premier league would secure this clubs future for 20/30 years. Never said it would be a disaster if we don't go up. 

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16 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Fee was reported in Belgium as 100,000 euros and he hasn't got a single minute of football for Blackpool since August.

So he doesn't count then.

 

 

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Have to say TVB your holding your own very well in this debate.

The comments made about the Amadou are very valid though. I did sit up and take note of what a unit he looked when he made a somewhat cameo appearance in midfield on Sunday. I think he could still turn out to be a great signing for us and if I were Farke I would be really tempted to switch him to midfield sooner rather than later.

Cantwell and Buendia need to get better at holding up the ball a bit better and drawing fouls. Refs won't tolerate over physicality if you have control of the ball but both of them get shrugged off far too easily. Hopefully a skill they will develop.

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Auxerre finished 15th in the French second tier last season. This season they sit in 12th in the French second tier and are owned  by a Chinese packaging company. Was that the long term plan? 

Ajax are listed on the stock exchange and have been since 1998, the biggest shareholder is an insurance company and other major shareholders include various investment funds including Invesco funds. Basically the Dutch Man Utd, is that something you aspire to?

Barcelona is literally the richest club in the world by revenue and recently became the first club in the world to achieve $1bn in annual revenues, they are in a different stratosphere. They also have various geopolitical things going on in Spain which make players much more loyal to certain clubs; there is a reason why Catalan children don't want to sign for a Madrid based club. Its the same in Basque too. We don't have that in the UK, James McLean making a **** out himself is as bad as it gets.

Youve done a great job of missing Parmas point(s) here.

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Barcelona, the $Billion team who didn’t buy big players.

Barcelona, the $Billion team who nurtured players from their Academy. Who were small.

If you’d said ‘we’re losing because they’re better than us’ that would be fine, but you didn’t you said ‘we’re losing because they’re bigger than us’.

For real personal context, I should add that I was selected for my first trial at Parma by the Club Doctor because I was ‘physically the ideal size’. 5’11 strong and fast. That’s great, but Barcelona and others came along and smashed the theory out of the park. 

Paul Scholes was 5’7 alongside Roy Keane at 5’10, similar (slightly shorter actually) than Emi Buendia 5’7 and Kenny Maclean 5’11 (Todd Cantwell is 5’9). They appeared to have overcome their ‘absence of physicality’.

Fred is 5’7, Andreas Pereira is 5’10, Dan James is 5’7, Martial 5’11, Rashford 5’11....

It’s a simplistic solution that ‘sounds like it must be right’ though simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. 

Results determine reaction from fans, quite understandably. When the Team you love loses all sorts of single, silver bullets appear to solve the problem. The prosaic truth is that any meaningful solutions for those with restricted funds are typically process-led, longer-term and must be guided  by principles that extend beyond results.

Parma 

 

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5 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Or people are presenting horribly simplistic solutions as self-certified pub wisdom. 
 

We can attract young, unproven, technical talent because we play such players. We don’t have a lot of money. Quality technical and big physical players are very expensive and everyone chases them.
 

We have no money so we go after players with chequered careers, injury risks or those who have travelled without settling or - excellently - quality young players starved of opportunity (that de-facto others have rejected or not opened the door to).
 

Whatever we choose we want players who can play a fluid, expansive, possession-oriented game. 
 

To bring in physical players therefore either means the binary of bringing in players who are big and physical (and perhaps not so technical, thus undermining the model) or bringing in players who are big and physical and technical (which every half-baked analyst from a 3rd tier side can identify. They cost a fortune and everybody chases them, thus undermining the model - again). 
 

We are on a model on the Auxerre-Ajax-Barcelona spectrum of long term methodology and philosophy. We will prefer players we have bred and talent we have schooled. 
 

If we can have all the assets plus physicality of course we will welcome it with open arms. Of course equal brilliant and superior physical beats just equal brilliant most times. 
 

To change means so much more than trite pub landlord solutions and simplicities. 
 

We were incredible last year. It was a wonderful unexpected miracle. We didn’t then spend any money. Other Premier teams already had lots of money and lots of great players. 
 

Our methodology is refreshing and will maximise our chances and improve our players based on our available parameters. 
 

Repeatedly upsetting the odds against teams and players that are better is unlikely however. You must believe it and you will sometimes achieve it, though let us not stake our houses on rainbows and unicorns, rather let us enjoy victories against Man City and the wonderful memories of a beautiful and - let’s not forget - the already against the odds and unexpected success of last year.

We are pocketing the cash to develop the model. A pragmatic choice and one that has momentum behind it, though is borne as much out of necessity as choice.

We either go into a gunfight with a knife or we try some innovative guerilla tactics that may not work, though which do not see Steven Naismith in the reserves, but rather see Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Cantwell et al receive an unbuyable education, likely enhancing their values (perhaps exponentially) and ‘proving’ to the world that we meant it when we said ‘come here (excellent young, underused player) and you’ll be given a fair chance and a great education.

This way the next Maddison comes to us too. And slightly better young players are attracted than even before. And so it continues. 
 

Or you could spend a load of cash on big lads that are a bit worse than everybody else’s big lads, with money we don’t have and putting off all the young gifted players  that we haven’t yet signed that are crucial to our sustainability under the current model.

Parma

 

I've quoted you Mouldyo rather than just reply in case anyone who doesn't get what you are saying,can read it again so that they might get it second time around. I couldn't agree more. What we are doing will take time and may, for many factors,not propel us to regular champions League appearances, but it should improve our club in more ways than just league position. You mention Auxerre, our local  (age 8-18)Club was lucky enough to somehow get a Volunteer Head Coach who'd earned his coaching badges through Auxerre's and the French FA System. . His whole approach has been a revelation here.

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5 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The first Maddison came to us because we wrote Coventry a cheque for over £4m the last time we were promoted to this league. 

Webber hasn't been prepared to spend that sort of cash. The "next Maddison" won't be coming to us because nobody is going to give us a teenager from their first team to us for free. 

We paid a seven figure sum for Godfrey too. They were signed because of the lack of quality coming through our academy, McNally said that himself. 

They were both playing senior football when purchased by us and were each purchased for seven figure sums. 

This is one of several times on this thread that your response is to talk about something other than the point that is being made. So we looked at Maddison, decided he was worth £4million and paid it. Is that a problem? Where does that contradict what Parma has said? The fact he didn’t play in our academy for 10 years first is to be regretted but hardly a disaster.
 

The point I think he has made is that the next time we see a promising player in the mould of Maddison, £4 million or not, they are much more likely to come to us because we have shown we can take promising young players who have missed out on being snapped up by the academies at the “big” clubs and not only develop them, but play them, hence giving them an excellent step up for their career. 

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I’ve played in Italy, coached in Italy and been coached in the Ajax system and took my badges under an International Manager. 

As WCorkCanary notes from his experiences with the Auxerre Coach, other countries just don’t have the obsession with size. 

They will of course embrace high physicality  gratefully if it comes as part of the tactical-intelligence-technical-speed package, but those things will always be the primary drivers. 
 

I have literally never met a quality player that thought ‘oh my God, I’ve got no chance today, he’s taller than me’. 

Parma

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15 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Barcelona.

Parma 

Barcelona would struggle week in week out with the relentless, physical nature of the Premier League

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12 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If I do invest considerable time finding this video and suceed will you and westcorkcanary spend ten seconds acknowledging that I'm right, or would you ignore it? That's why I won't bother. 

Gladly,  have no problem admitting I'm wrong about something. The bit about 1968 was a little tickle , in case you weren't sure.

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9 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Have to say TVB your holding your own very well in this debate.

The comments made about the Amadou are very valid though. I did sit up and take note of what a unit he looked when he made a somewhat cameo appearance in midfield on Sunday. I think he could still turn out to be a great signing for us and if I were Farke I would be really tempted to

I saw somebody suggest Byram alongside Godfrey and I've seen worse ideas based on how he looked against Man City. 

But we need to see if Amadou is even fit to play, could hardly move at the end of the last game. 

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