We don't have a defensive line

[Chelm Canary 404]

 

Talking about Sunday. 

Saw a goalkeeper that put one of the most monumental performances I've ever seen in my life. 

A right back that was excellent going forward, creating space, causing problems but at the same time the 2 centre halves were 30 metres behind and always about 10ft In front or behind each over. 

A left back who was too far over and consistantly hugging the touch line. 

If the defense doesn't move as a unit then this shipping of goals will continue at a rate that isn't sustainable for survival in this league. 

I know I'm going to take some heat. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,773]

I don't see why you're going to take any heat, as what you're saying is right and I'm sure most of us recognise this.

Three of our back four are youngsters who've only been playing senior football for about two years, and the other one has hardly ever played in a back four- he's a midfielder by trade and when he has played at centre back, it was in a three, if I'm not mistaken.

As a result, they're all pretty raw when it comes to things like working as a unit, keeping their shape, knowing when they can push on and when they need to cover etc.

It usually comes with age. One of the best and most famous defensive units in English football was the Arsenal one in the mid-late 90s, and that was a unit that had played together for the best part of an entire decade and were all experienced players aged in their 30s.

Unfortunately there aren't that many viable options at the moment to change it up as the more experienced defenders are all injured, so it looks as though we're going to have to stick with them and hope they learn quickly enough. 

Maybe we can get Tony Pulis in as our manager for a couple months before handing the reins back to Farke in January...

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

We have to get past the fact that the lads are young at the back. They have represented their chosen countries at international level so according to those international coaches are pretty good players.

And if that fact is arguably correct then we have to look further abroad for the main problem.

Personally I think it is our style of play and our willingness to play first time balls. It is a lovely style, when it works, Man City, and we have to accept that in the EPL, there are players who exploit any mistakes. We conceded a massive amount of goals last season but against less capable opposition, we scored more than we conceded.

Rashford is no older than our defenders but exploited our openness with the second goal.

Would we have accepted the club paying £50M for Wan Bissaka? Would we have wanted MacGuire for £80M? These are the prices being paid now and we certainly are in no position to compete with that. Just because we have EPL money doesn't mean it can all go on transfer fees.

We have gone with what we have and it isn't bearing fruit at the moment. And maybe it won't at all. But credit the club for weighing up what it means for a club of our capabilities to compete at the highest level.

Of course there are exceptions like Burnley but unfortunately at the moment we aren't an exception.

 

[king canary 7,558]

The whole system screams that we need to use that old cliche and 'get back to basics' a bit. Drill into the defence about working as a unit, moving up and down together, remind the midfield about positional discipline and covering for defenders on the overlap.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,773]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

We have to get past the fact that the lads are young at the back. They have represented their chosen countries at international level so according to those international coaches are pretty good players.

They're immense talents and very good as individuals, but by putting them all together they lack experience. If Zimmermann of Klose was at centre back with with Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis making up the defence then they'd at least be a leader to help guide them through. I know Krul does this, but it's easier for another defender to do. Amadou apparently doesn't speak a huge amount of English and he isn't an experienced centre back either, so he can't perform this role, which means that there is no experience in the defence, and that isn't a great situation to be in the top level.

Unfortunately though, there isn't really a lot we can do about at the moment, and there isn't a lot we could've done about in the summer. Our experienced options in defence are long-term injured, and that's something beyond our control. We have no choice but to play the youngsters, give them as much protection and guidance as possible, and hope they gain experience sharpish.

[hogesar 9,606]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

They're immense talents and very good as individuals, but by putting them all together they lack experience. If Zimmermann of Klose was at centre back with with Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis making up the defence then they'd at least be a leader to help guide them through. I know Krul does this, but it's easier for another defender to do. Amadou apparently doesn't speak a huge amount of English and he isn't an experienced centre back either, so he can't perform this role, which means that there is no experience in the defence, and that isn't a great situation to be in the top level.

Unfortunately though, there isn't really a lot we can do about at the moment, and there isn't a lot we could've done about in the summer. Our experienced options in defence are long-term injured, and that's something beyond our control. We have no choice but to play the youngsters, give them as much protection and guidance as possible, and hope they gain experience sharpish.

I make you right.

1) It's one thing going into the prem with 3 of your back 4 being 21.

2)It's another thing when those 3 players haven't played at this level of football before.

3) It's yet another thing when those 3 players are having to deal with different Goalkeepers and a different CB because of injuries.

4) It's yet another another thing when those 3 young players are having to play without a recognised defensive midfielder in front of them.

The caveat, of course, it's that we knew about the first two. And at the end of last season some of the posters who were 'happy to see our young players rewarded and given a chance' are now slating them for making mistakes. 

However it's quite clear the majority of fans are understanding of the situation and the players overall have been really well supported including in some really poor defensive games.

[Aggy 747]

One thing I do query (genuine question here) is whether we have a defence coach who is drilling the players properly? Other than Farke I don’t know much about the coaching team. 

When you look at how poorly we defend set pieces, and as mentioned above how we fail to look like a cohesive unit a lot of the time at the back, I do wonder if we’re lacking in the defensive coaching department. Anyone know what our coaches ‘specialise’ in?

I’m not sure you can compare Rashford to our defenders. Attackers are far more about the individual. You can turn a group of average defenders into a really solid defensive unit with the right coach if you get them organised and drilled; if your main striker hasn’t got those natural goal scoring instincts and/or you haven’t got any players with that spark of creativity then you can only do so much as a coach. 

[paddycanary 538]

I don't necessarily believe that the youth & inexperience in the back line is the root of the current problems. Part of the issue, sure.  We're being outplayed and pretty much dominated through the midfield area leaving the defence exposed. A bit of luck with injuries was always going to be a requirement to remain competitive, which hasn't been the case, obviously. Sadly it's doesn't look like this situation is going to improve any time soon, e.g. Krul & Amadou at the weekend. 

The step up from the Championship looks (at this juncture) to be a bit beyond McLean, Trybull & Stiepermann. If DF looks to shore up this area with Tettey, Trybull (who are both fairly injury prone) and one from Leitner, Vrancic, McLean and hopefully Amadou at some stage, we run the risk of isolating the attack; however we might stay in the game until the last 20 mins and grab a few points. This type of approach might help for a month or two until (hopefully) there are more defensive options and the approach can be re-appraised accordingly. Farke is now currently wrestling with the much-sought balance between attack & defence which of course hinges on the midfield, particularly defensive midfield. It didn't take long for opposition coaches to pick out Buendia & Pukki as the two that make things tick offensively. Cantwell is learning his trade at the sharp end & Stieps has his charms but, for me, is simply not good enough to be the fulcrum at this level. Onel has been missed but again we don't know yet how effective he will be at this level once he gets 'sussed out.'

A combination of these issues combined with such a youthful defence is leading to the current struggles. It is easy to be wise after the fact. The centre-back injuries have been hugely unfortunate and continue to limit to what the coaching team can try to implement. Players are coming back now, increasing options. DF really does need to climb Everest again or the damage may be done before the end of the January window. Hopefully we can turn things around, stay in games until the end, keep a few clean sheets, score a few late goals, reduce the reliance on Pukki, improve around set-pieces and generally look like we belong in this division. 17th is the goal for this season. Plenty of games to go but we need to be racking up a few points. Towel not thrown in yet but the next few games are important. 

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

I'm also a bit concerned with a the little bit of unrest amongst the players. I've just read Tettey's post match comments (on the front page) about Aarons and Amadou, and also watched and listened to Hernandez's obvious frustrations. Which to be fair most of us praised.

With Cantwell and Leitner hauled off at h/t too, it seems things may be getting a bit fraut.

Agree we must stay in contention until January and I'm desperate for a win of any sort right now.