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BBC Sport Norwich article by Sutton

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“In fact, Norwich are shipping goals at a faster rate than any team in Premier League history, relegated or not.

Since 1992, only one team has stayed up having conceded on average more than two goals a game (Wigan with 2.08 in 2009-10). At the moment, Norwich's record is a lot worse than that.”

 

Very concerning stat that is!

 

 

 

Edited by JF

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Just now, JF said:

“In fact, Norwich are shipping goals at a faster rate than any team in Premier League history, relegated or not.

Since 1992, only one team has stayed up having conceded on average more than two goals a game (Wigan with 2.08 in 2009-10). At the moment, Norwich's record is a lot worse than that.”

 

 

 

 

Stating the obvious.

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1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Stating the obvious.

Take it up with Chris Sutton...

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7 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Stating the obvious.

Wasn’t to me. It’s obvious we’re conceding a lot of goals but I didn’t know the facts mentioned. Decent article.

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1 minute ago, Fiery Zac said:

Wasn’t to me. It’s obvious we’re conceding a lot of goals but I didn’t know the facts mentioned. Decent article.

Yeah, I was quite alarmed at that as well.

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What I take exception to is the assertion that injuries have little impact on our performances.

He cites the fact that we had essentially the same team against Villa as ManC (with Aarons back as well) - BUT the difference is we didn't have a DM, a goalie who doesn't play our system, & I think they're the straws that broke the camel's back.

We've struggled on without players we really need to be competitive (Timm. Christoph. Onel) plus players like Trybull & Vrancic who give good back up, but made a fist of it by some extraordinary efforts by our patched up squad.

I think the ManC result was a lot to do with playing a team who thought it would be a walk in the park & raising our game to its best; interesting also to remember that the press were full of comments that the loss of a single CD was key to their downfall!!!

They lose one. Everything changes.

We lose two - & the last one playing with a hernia - but that apparently makes no difference!

You should never use injuries as an excuse, that's agreed, but there comes a point when you're screwed - unless all the remaining team play out of their skins every week, & that is asking for the impossible.

 

 

Edited by ron obvious

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As an article from an ex professional who played to a high standard, then you have to say he is right. But it doesn't give credit to the injuries.

It isn't just the fact of who starts the game, but if anyone has a bad run then they can't be replaced as we just don't have any cover at the moment, apart from up front and I do not see anyone replacing Teemu to be honest.

But the last game must have sent some alarm bells ringing even for DF who has to be admired for his attacking style.

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Man City have struggled defensively with only Laporte out.

Shocker that a newly promoted team struggles with their RB, LB and 3 CB's all injured at various stages...

Not to mention all your holding midfielders being injured alongside...

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I am so glad Chris decided to bring this to our attention now we can resolve the problem it will be alright.  Put the injuries to the back of your mind they appear to be an irrelevance.  

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I thought his article is pretty weak.  The stats showing the number of goals we're conceding are a problem are stating the obvious.

 

The comment he makes that we fielded nearly the same team against Man City as Villa misses so may points that it would take ages to list them all !  For example, we had our 3rd choice goalie, who's not nearly as good as Krul but is also uncomfortable playing it out from the back, which is key to our system.

 

Also, part of the injury problem is that we have players who have to play despite being injured because there's no cover, so it's not surprising they don't play as well as they normally do.

 

Also, the tactic we used against Man City was to close down the centre of the pitch and concede possession on the flanks, because they prefer to attack centrally.  This worked because they were forced to put in a large number of crosses, not their preferred way to attack.  Whereas against Burnley.... And having lots of players defending the centre against Man City made the lack of a specialist DM less important.  In subsequent games, we've had less cover in defensive midfield which has exposed the fact that McLean/Leitner are not as good at tackles/interceptions compared to Tettey/Trybull (or Amadou for that matter who'd we'd prefer to have playing there).

 

Also I think the Godfrey/Amadou CB pairing was more suited to facing the Man City style of attack using skilful, smaller players but less good against teams with a more physical attacking threat.

 

Also, injuries have made it incredibly hard for Farke to change things around when we need goals late in the game.  Last season he'd regularly bring on Vrancic and/or Rhodes etc and they'd often get us goals.  This season, I think the goal Drmic scored was the first by a substitute.

 

Injuries are not an "excuse".  Clearly there were problems at the Villa game and our injuries are part of the explanation but not the whole story.  But this injury crisis is unprecedented in the club's history that I can remember going back 25 years.  And with a squad assembled on a shoestring in the first place, it's not rocket science to think the injuries are causing a real problem for our survival hopes.

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I would find it hard to believe that anyone could disagree with Sutton on the whole. 

But of course at the start of the season, we had a few people on here who stated, rather forcefully, that our defence was indeed strong enough and attempted to shoot down anyone who raised concerns or dared to even suggest otherwise!

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

What I take exception to is the assertion that injuries have little impact on our performances.

He cites the fact that we had essentially the same team against Villa as ManC (with Aarons back as well) - BUT the difference is we didn't have a DM, a goalie who doesn't play our system, & I think they're the straws that broke the camel's back.

We've struggled on without players we really need to be competitive (Timm. Christoph. Onel) plus players like Trybull & Vrancic who give good back up, but made a fist of it by some extraordinary efforts by our patched up squad.

I think the ManC result was a lot to do with playing a team who thought it would be a walk in the park & raising our game to its best; interesting also to remember that the press were full of comments that the loss of a single CD was key to their downfall!!!

They lose one. Everything changes.

We lose two - & the last one playing with a hernia - but that apparently makes no difference!

You should never use injuries as an excuse, that's agreed, but there comes a point when you're screwed - unless all the remaining team play out of their skins every week, & that is asking for the impossible.

 

 

Well said we also had a min of 3 players that had to have injections and I suspect 4. 

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The article obviously pin points our defensive weaknesses but that does not make it any less valid. Whilst we have had no luck with injuries we should have strengthened in the summer. The lack of quality will always hit you in this league.. 

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5 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The article obviously pin points our defensive weaknesses but that does not make it any less valid. Whilst we have had no luck with injuries we should have strengthened in the summer. The lack of quality will always hit you in this league.. 

So you’re saying we should have bought a fifth CB? Or replaced Jamal and Max?

 

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Or Hanley or Klose... surely we could have found an upgrade on those? No? I have no beef with either of them but injuries and form would have pointed to a need to change. Not sure why you would want to replace young hungry talent...

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1 hour ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

I would find it hard to believe that anyone could disagree with Sutton on the whole. 

But of course at the start of the season, we had a few people on here who stated, rather forcefully, that our defence was indeed strong enough and attempted to shoot down anyone who raised concerns or dared to even suggest otherwise!

To be fair, we also had people at the start of last season who said it wasn't strong enough and we'd struggle to do any better than midtable. Any recollection of that NBS?

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One can't help but think we have not learnt from previous trips to the top tier. Early days though and themanagement and players have proven us wrong before... just always seems as though we treat it like we don't belong here, where I think a support our size has every right to be in this league like Leicester, Southampton, Bournemouth, sheffield Utd, Villa, Burnley, Wolves, Watford.... a reasonable investment in quality that could have been called upon this season would have been appreciated... especially at the back.

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Its a good article and highlights what a problem our defending is.

I do agree with him that if you look at our starting line up then actually there are not too many out of position and probably only 2 or 3 starters missing.

However, beyond anything else I think what has hampered us is not having a decent defensive midfielder fit or in position. If you look at the west ham game and Burnley to a degree and most notably Villa all our defensive problems and chances conceded flow from us giving the ball away in our own half. Without a proper defensive midfielder this just gives the opposition a free run on our back 4, often with various easy passing options or the opportunity to take a shot on goal without even having to make a pass. this is just way, way too easy.

For this reason having Tettey back is huge, especially if we have to persist with Amadou at the back for a few more games. I would be half tempted to go with Tettey and Trybull behind the front four for the next couple of games just to try and get some solidity back. 

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43 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Or Hanley or Klose... surely we could have found an upgrade on those? No? I have no beef with either of them but injuries and form would have pointed to a need to change. Not sure why you would want to replace young hungry talent...

I’m trying to understand what you mean by saying we should have upgraded in the summer. It’s a no to replacing Jamal or Max, which is good, we’re agreed there. Especially when we acquired Byram for £750K, which is almost criminally good value (admittedly with a risk attached with his injury record).

 

So we should have bought someone to take the place of Hanley or Klose? Klose is an international who has PL experience and has no desire to leave. How much would we have to realistically spend to do this? I would argue too much for what would be a third choice player.

 

Hanley then? Again, he has PL experience, and cost us £3 million (please correct me if this is wrong but it’s what I remember without checking) and we know he can do a good enough job to have started in the team and be captain at the beginning of last season. I simply can’t see how we could attract someone better who would be prepared to very possibly not play all season. At least not without buying the sort of journeyman that so many of us have been unhappy to have taking a slice of our wage pie in the past.

 

The only other option I can see would be to buy someone better than Godfrey or Zimbo. If possible at all, it would have cost all of our transfer pot, and surely spending everything on one player - especially when we have four at least adequate players in that position already- would be foolish in the extreme.

 

tl;dr - I don’t think your point stands up to scrutiny and is simply an overreaction to our hugely unlucky injury crisis.

Edited by Nuff Said
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I'm sure if you checked the stats most teams who had conceded 20 or more goals after 8 games would be relegated. You can't argue with the evidence so that's us and Watford done for then. With just one place to be decided.

So here's where the strategy and fans who don't buy into it are going to continually clash. Because the strategy is to develop players like Aarons, Lewis, Godfrey and Zimmermann including learning on the job in the premier league. Under this regime I doubt we're ever going to destroy the model by spending on experienced premier league players in the hope they keep us up. What happened last time is still a recent memory and Webber has said he won't repeat it and wouldn't want anyone else to have to take over such a situation after he is gone.

But we have hope. Having more players fit is one hope. And the other is that by sticking with the youngsters they learn on the job and become better players over the season.

However, after every defeat more fans will cross the line and want what we don't have and are unlikely to get.

 

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We weren't that great defensively in the Championship, conceding around 120 goals in 2 seasons, and that's with Zimmermann and Klose fit. We were just bloody brilliant going forward. Against better quality opposition we no longer have that luxury.

I hope we prove CS wrong but his article is bang on at the moment and it's looking ominous for us and Watford.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I’m trying to understand what you mean by saying we should have upgraded in the summer. It’s a no to replacing Jamal or Max, which is good, we’re agreed there. Especially when we acquired Byram for £750K, which is almost criminally good value (admittedly with a risk attached with his injury record).

 

So we should have bought someone to take the place of Hanley or Klose? Klose is an international who has PL experience and has no desire to leave. How much would we have to realistically spend to do this? I would argue too much for what would be a third choice player.

 

Hanley then? Again, he has PL experience, and cost us £3 million (please correct me if this is wrong but it’s what I remember without checking) and we know he can do a good enough job to have started in the team and be captain at the beginning of last season. I simply can’t see how we could attract someone better who would be prepared to very possibly not play all season. At least not without buying the sort of journeyman that so many of us have been unhappy to have taking a slice of our wage pie in the past.

 

The only other option I can see would be to buy someone better than Godfrey or Zimbo. If possible at all, it would have cost all of our transfer pot, and surely spending everything on one player - especially when we have four at least adequate players in that position already- would be foolish in the extreme.

 

tl;dr - I don’t think your point stands up to scrutiny and is simply an overreaction to our hugely unlucky injury crisis.

Sorry but do not think that Hanley or klose are good enough or fit enough for this division. Hanley was not played last season.. with our better scouting network and the added money from promotion, it is not unreasonable to expect us to strengthen an area we were weak at last season. Other teams seem to achieve it..

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There is still time to turn that average round though, all is not lost by a long way. Having played Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea already, even with a fully fit squad we could be in the exact same position. The current status is skewed imo. Let's see how we look having played all the teams once.

Tbh if the scores in the Man City and Villa games were swapped we would probably be feeling a bit more optimistic even though mathematically we would be in the same position. Conceding 5 and nearly 7 against poxy Villa was a real kick in the gonads.

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I'll be honest if you ignore his City connection Sutton is just BBCs version of Adrian Durham. He offers very, very little and his article suggesting there wasnt much difference between our team against man city than villa completely ignores a massive glaring hole in that we had Godfrey about to have a hernia OP, Lewis playing through painkillers, Max back early as Byram had an injury and not a single holding midfielder. 

Its kids stuff and he cant even acknowledge those bits. I dont disagree about the stats because they're facts but any one of us can do that, his job is to provide context alongside professional expert opinion and pretty much everything he says or comes up with is lacking in those departments.

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Largely agree with the article. 

In particular, the part where he says (paraphrasing), it’s all well and good blaming it on the injuries, but if you’ve got huge injuries and it’s causing you big problems playing a certain way, then change it up. You need to be thinking about giving your make shift defensive unit a bit more protection and scope to keep it tight (like we did at Man City).

Let’s not forget as well - that defensive stat of conceding 2.6 a game isn’t skewed because of one drumming by a top top side like Man City  or Liverpool who are just on it one day. We’ve let in 2 goals in all but one of our games. Even if we’d not conceded against  Villa we’d be averaging 2 goals conceded a game.

I also like the comment in the article that we are treating every game like a shoot out. That’s the one thing that worried me (only slightly admittedly) about the way we came up - in the championship the opposition attackers aren’t as good and the opposition defenders aren’t as good. So you get more chances and can afford to concede more chances. In the prem you get fewer chances and get punished more often. 

I’m not sure why we seem so hesitant to play like we did against Man City - yes it was more “solid” and less open than normal, but we arguably played our best football this season in that game. Some of the playing it out, the skills of Cantwell in particular breaking free and the pace on the counter - it was as good as anything else we’ve produced this season and we kept it pretty tight.

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

,his job is to provide context 

“I still live in the area and read the local paper so I've seen there has been a big thing made about the injuries Norwich have suffered in the past few weeks, and of course they have missed some of the players who have been sidelined.

There have been goalkeeper issues with their top two, Tim Krul and Ralf Fahrmann, both out. At centre-half, Christoph Zimmermann, Timm Klose and Grant Hanley are long-term absentees, which has meant a defensive midfielder, Ibrahim Amadou, has filled in there rather than play in his preferred position.

More recently, midfielders Kenny McLean and Todd Cantwell picked up problems over the international break.

It is clearly far from ideal, but I actually look at Norwich's line-ups in recent weeks and I do not see many bit-part players.”

 

“This is not a case of me putting the boot into Farke. Far from it.

His Canaries side put in one of the greatest performances in the club's history when they beat Manchester City last month, and there is nothing wrong with them as an attacking force.”

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

alongside professional expert opinion

Clearly, you have to ask whether Norwich's backline is getting enough protection now they are in the Premier League, and also whether their defenders are good enough to cope by winning their individual battles when they are left exposed?

So far, it appears the answer to both questions is 'no'”

 

“In any case, you cannot blame bad results on not having the personnel available if you still just go out and play in your usual attacking style, because surely sticking with it in those circumstances is not a sensible thing to do?

If you have a weakened team, then give them more protection. 

I am a huge fan of expansive football but sometimes you need to try to keep your back four intact - so, tell your full-backs to sit in and play a little more pragmatically.”

 

”The big positive about all of this is that it is still so early, there is no need to panic yet.

If I was a player in the Norwich dressing room now, I would be thinking about how we do need to tighten up, but I would also be confident we have players who can hurt Premier League sides.”

 

“...That could affect their confidence too and, if they start to lose belief in the way Farke wants them to play, then they really are in trouble.”

 

“My issue is that they seem to be making every game a shoot-out and with their weaknesses in defence, it has left them as sitting ducks. 

Their defeat by Villa was a good example of that - I was watching it and could not believe how ludicrously open they were.”

 


So other than the context and professional opinion above, and the numerous interesting stats, what were you expecting from such an article?
 

Or is it that he’s said a few things that are probably true so we’re just going to say he’s a bad pundit instead of acknowledging that he might be on to something, for instance when suggesting it might be a half decent idea to give your defence a bit more cover and scope to sit tight when you’ve only got half a fit defender.

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If you think hes said anything insightful then you'd really enjoy Drive on talksport from 4pm daily.

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