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Jim Smith

For some bizarre reason i have just re-watched the highlights

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Aside from the 4th goal, virtually every single chance they had or goal they scored came from them dispossessing Mo about 35/40 yards out (third goal it was an attempted pass from Emi to Mo to be fair) and then breaking on our defence pretty much unopposed. They basically put a man on him and pressed him and he was disposed far too easily on virtually every occasion and once that happened he can't get back and there was no other midfielder able to cover either.

I've generally been a big fan of Mo and of course one of his strengths is taking the ball in tight areas and moving it on but they had about 5 chances in the first 15 minutes as a result of this tactic so you would think the players would have the nous to adjust or Farke would tell them to. 

Desperately need Tettey back or if that's not the case just play Byram at the back and put Amadou in midfield. Neither of our next two opponants play with players up front who are particularly strong in the air.

 

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A lot of people seeing Tetty as the new messiah. As they do for most players who aren't  involved. I have me reservations. He's yet to be fully tested in the premier league. Yes he can break up play, but he's not getting any younger  and he was never the quickest in the first place. And don't get me started on his passing.

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Nobody is seeing Tettey as the new messiah. Just a player that can sit in there and protect that defence far better than anyone else we have at our disposal at the moment 

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2 minutes ago, JF said:

Nobody is seeing Tettey as the new messiah. Just a player that can sit in there and protect that defence far better than anyone else we have at our disposal at the moment 

Exactly this, Amadou would do the same probably better, but we need some of our CB back and fit.

There’s every chance that week on Saturday we could have all four CB out, three injured and Godfrey having an op.

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Not a massive Leitner fan, and that was the poorest game I've seen Leitner have for some time. However, I think it is more to do with the lack of balance we have in midfield when Kenny and him play together, and unfortunately we don't exactly have many other options at this point in time. Particularly clear that Villa's tactics were to knock it long to their lump of a CF, and compress that midfield as quickly as possible. Frustrating that it worked, although I feel like had Zimbo been playing, and some sort of midfield destroyer, it would have been far less effective.

I also feel like our youthfulness/naivety cost us - there didn't really seem to be anyone on the pitch capable of spotting the danger and showing the leadership required to adapt during the game.

 

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Leitner had a poor game, but I think he's missing a holding midfielder next to him. Tettey is obviously a good shout, but the man we brought in as an upgrade on Tettey still hasn't had the chance to play there yet.

I think that long term, with everyone fit, Leitner and Amadou is the partnership I'd like to see. Or possibly Vrancic in place of Leitner, as he deserves his chance.

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Tettey has generally been excellent whenever called on by Farke, so hope he is fit for Bournemouth. Trybull has kept Tettey out of the team too, so he is excellent.  We are missing both of them being available.  It's easy to pinpoint Mo as being a scapegoat for errors, but Emi has been found wanting and so have Cantwell and Stiepermann through this season so far.  Must say I haven't noticed McLean giving the ball away that much.

All the creative midfielders need to step up a bit imo - not in trying to be flash or try to be better than they are, but just to do the simple things better.  

Imo the whole team is suffering from this injury spell - but it will improve, players will return and good players do not become bad just like that - and all of them are good players.

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4 hours ago, Mind the gap said:

A lot of people seeing Tetty as the new messiah. As they do for most players who aren't  involved. I have me reservations. He's yet to be fully tested in the premier league. Yes he can break up play, but he's not getting any younger  and he was never the quickest in the first place. And don't get me started on his passing.

Could you please tell me how often he gives the ball away? What is his pass completion rate?

What on earth do you think his job is? He screens the defence like nobody else we've got, forces the opposition back, wins headers, intercepts the ball & when he wins it back passes to a player who has the skills necessary to get our attack going again.

Unless we can afford £20m + he's the best we're likely to have. His injury record lately is my biggest concern, but when he's on the pitch he's a huge influence on our play.

 

Edited by ron obvious
grammar
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This was not meant as a specific criticism of Leitner (although he did not have a good game on Saturday in some other games he has played very well) more to point out that their chances were coming from a very specific source as a result of them sticking a man directly on him and harrying him all game long and getting probably unexpected levels of success from it. I honestly think it led to at least 10 decent chances at goal for them, if not more.

I suppose it goes back to the "should we change how we play" debate because to my mind once it happened 3 or 4 times (which it had before they scored their second goal if not more time than that) the team should be adapting and realising that this was happening. I'm not talking about lumping it long but surely someone needs to have the leadership qualities to realise that playing it short to him 30 yards from our own goal was causing us problems. 

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2 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Could you please tell me how often he gives the ball away? What is his pass completion rate?

What on earth do you think his job? He screens the defence like nobody else we've got, forces the opposition back, wins headers, intercepts the ball & when he wins it back passes to a player who has the skills necessary to get our attack going again.

Unless we can afford £20m + he's the best we're likely to have. His injury record lately is my biggest concern, but when he's on the pitch he's a huge influence on our play.

 

This. Never get the Tettey hate. He came in for the Man City game and made a huge difference. he never really lets us down. Ok at full strength perhaps Amadou takes his place in the starting line up but right now if there is one player I'd want back for Bournemouth (other than a CB but that's not going to happen by the looks of it) then its Tettey.

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17 minutes ago, Ian said:

Not a massive Leitner fan, and that was the poorest game I've seen Leitner have for some time. However, I think it is more to do with the lack of balance we have in midfield when Kenny and him play together, and unfortunately we don't exactly have many other options at this point in time. Particularly clear that Villa's tactics were to knock it long to their lump of a CF, and compress that midfield as quickly as possible. Frustrating that it worked, although I feel like had Zimbo been playing, and some sort of midfield destroyer, it would have been far less effective.

I also feel like our youthfulness/naivety cost us - there didn't really seem to be anyone on the pitch capable of spotting the danger and showing the leadership required to adapt during the game.

 

I agree. Had we picked this then there were presumably quite a few pockets of space further up the pitch we could have exploited as they were committing a man to mark Leitner at all times. In such circumstances he's clearly going to be under the cosh but it should have opened up opportunities elsewhere. instead we kept passing it to him time and time again in the area where he was being dispossessed and then we did it with Emi as well.

I know that to a degree playing out from the back means this will happen from time to time but there has to be a balance. 

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3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree. Had we picked this then there were presumably quite a few pockets of space further up the pitch we could have exploited as they were committing a man to mark Leitner at all times. In such circumstances he's clearly going to be under the cosh but it should have opened up opportunities elsewhere. instead we kept passing it to him time and time again in the area where he was being dispossessed and then we did it with Emi as well.

I know that to a degree playing out from the back means this will happen from time to time but there has to be a balance. 

Agreed, someone like Onel would have really suited this sort of game I think.

That said, I think there were just too many below-par individual performances. Whether that is due to fatigue and there not being any options to replace people I think is arguable.

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Yeah, I don't get this anti Tettey thing either. Especially not with regards to his passing. He, when playing reasonably regularly a couple seasons back, actually had the best pass completion rate out of any of our other players. So to say he can't pass doesn't make sense. He doesn't try the Hollywood passes. He keeps them short and accurate which is exactly what we need from someone in his position.

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1 hour ago, Ian said:

Agreed, someone like Onel would have really suited this sort of game I think.

That said, I think there were just too many below-par individual performances. Whether that is due to fatigue and there not being any options to replace people I think is arguable.

Agree. We don't have anyone else like him. He's strong, direct, quick and, perhaps quite importantly, stays out wide.

As much as I think Cantwell has been good, the fact he wants to move inside more than stay out wide changes the entire way we play.

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1 hour ago, BobLoz3 said:

Yeah, I don't get this anti Tettey thing either. Especially not with regards to his passing. He, when playing reasonably regularly a couple seasons back, actually had the best pass completion rate out of any of our other players. So to say he can't pass doesn't make sense. He doesn't try the Hollywood passes. He keeps them short and accurate which is exactly what we need from someone in his position.

I would give my left leg for Tetty to be fit for bournemouth, that said, pass completion rate and passing ability is not the same thing as you point out, so you kind of answer your own question there.

 Do you not remember when he tried to be more expansive when he first came to the club?  He's a legitimate legend now, but if he didn't simplify his game to suit his style, it could have been very different.

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23 minutes ago, Orly said:

I would give my left leg for Tetty to be fit for bournemouth, that said, pass completion rate and passing ability is not the same thing as you point out, so you kind of answer your own question there.

 Do you not remember when he tried to be more expansive when he first came to the club?  He's a legitimate legend now, but if he didn't simplify his game to suit his style, it could have been very different.

Yes, asked to play a different way by different managers I should think.

Didn't really work!

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Leitner acts as the quarterback of the side,  and will constantly roam from CM to offer a short option to feet which he will then turn over quickly. It's a vital part of making the way we play a success and being very good at it is why he was meant to be such a big deal before he lost his way (I am however not defending his performance against Villa, they were all crap)

Kenny McLean is more of a box-to-box midfielder but with a definite preference for facing forwards than back- and when Mo was injured for a large part of last year, he was the one that became the CM 'creator'. The essential facts of the two playing together are that one will wander off wide to dictate play and one will spur forward the second we look like we have a break on; that leaves a lot of room for PL attackers to work in and Farke could scream until he's blau in the face, they won't sit in front of the defence naturally or effectively for a whole game.

We all know what the fix is here. We can only afford one of these players to start, alongside one of Amadou, Tettey or Trybull so they can take territorial responsibility for the middle of the pitch- we also know at the moment we don't have that option due to the silly injury crisis. It's going to come down to whether or not those players come back in time to stop the bleed before it becomes terminal.

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10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Must say I haven't noticed McLean giving the ball away that much

 

That's because he's done virtually nothing in almost every game.

Been totally anonymous most of the time IMHO.

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33 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

That's because he's done virtually nothing in almost every game.

Been totally anonymous most of the time IMHO.

And what was your opinion of him last season?

 

 

I ask because there were a few posters backtracking when a more detailed analysis showed the important role he played in the team, which might not have been obvious to the 'man in the street'. And I include myself in that,  but I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I'm no expert.

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1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

That's because he's done virtually nothing in almost every game.

Been totally anonymous most of the time IMHO.

I don't think he's as bad as people make out, but he doesn't show for the ball quite enough. I think its more being a bit of a square peg in a round hole when it comes to our particular style of football rather than shirking.

He's all we've got fit at the moment though.

We miss Vrancic though, who I think is our most complete deep-lying playmaker. He can't dictate tempo quite as well as Leitner, but he sees more opportunities in the final third and can ping the odd genius long range pass that can split the opposition in an instant.

It took me a long time to take to Vrancic but I honestly think he's the most complete player of the three. 

One annoying thing about McLean is that he actually has a change of pace in him, which is one of the weaknesses in Leitner's and Vrancic's games, but he doesn't utilise it enough. 

Vrancic's goal threat from range and from direct free kicks is something else we could do with right now... Leitner been a bit unlucky to hit the woodwork a couple of times, but he's just not really ever had a goal in him. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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11 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

And what was your opinion of him last season?

 

 

I ask because there were a few posters backtracking when a more detailed analysis showed the important role he played in the team, which might not have been obvious to the 'man in the street'. And I include myself in that,  but I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I'm no expert.

Last season he did nothing in quite a few games as well but he did keep chipping in with important goals and was part of a winning team so kept his place. My view of Mclean is that he tends to either be excellent or rubbish with not many performances in between. 

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10 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I don't think he's as bad as people make out, but he doesn't show for the ball quite enough. I think its more being a bit of a square peg in a round hole when it comes to our particular style of football rather than shirking.

He's all we've got fit at the moment though.

We miss Vrancic though, who I think is our most complete deep-lying playmaker. He can't dictate tempo quite as well as Leitner, but he sees more opportunities in the final third and can ping the odd genius long range pass that can split the opposition in an instant.

It took me a long time to take to Vrancic but I honestly think he's the most complete player of the three. 

One annoying thing about McLean is that he actually has a change of pace in him, which is one of the weaknesses in Leitner's and Vrancic's games, but he doesn't utilise it enough. 

Vrancic's goal threat from range and from direct free kicks is something else we could do with right now... Leitner been a bit unlucky to hit the woodwork a couple of times, but he's just not really ever had a goal in him. 

I agree that Vrancic makes a huge difference. Just look at his impact in key games last season. He also has some physical presence, unlike Leitner, which is a positive in this (and any division). And offers a goal threat. I'd like to see what he can offer in this league. 

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Most goals conceded at this moment in time.....We're Premiershipping goals......Stop the rot and bring in a faith healer..... 😉 

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23 hours ago, Mind the gap said:

A lot of people seeing Tetty as the new messiah. As they do for most players who aren't  involved. I have me reservations. He's yet to be fully tested in the premier league. Yes he can break up play, but he's not getting any younger  and he was never the quickest in the first place. And don't get me started on his passing.

Tettey has had 3 full seasons in the Premier League so I fail to see how he hasn't been fully tested. Yes injuries are a problem but a fit Tettey makes massive difference to our midfield. Amadou may eventually be the replacement but until a cb is fit he cant be. Oh & his passing is accurate, makes certain we retain possession & allows the creative players to play. 

 

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Just watching the highlights but Amadou will make a fantastic decisive midfielder, the number of times he broke up play.

  I do agree about Mo  our best passer was trying too long passes or they were not hitting their target -an off day for him.

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On 07/10/2019 at 21:23, Nuff Said said:

And what was your opinion of him last season?

I ask because there were a few posters backtracking when a more detailed analysis showed the important role he played in the team, which might not have been obvious to the 'man in the street'. And I include myself in that,  but I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I'm no expert.

 

Last season I didn't think he was great either, but he seemed to contribute better and scored some important goals, but I'd still rather have had Leitner, Vrancic, Tettey or Trubyll selected ahead of him, just like I do now.

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Mo has been a real problem for the last three games. At Burnley he was allowed space but declined to play the early ball and as a result he must have been enormously frustrating to play with. When players make their runs around him and ahead of him they need to be receiving the ball at the right time or else they are out of the game.

At Palace he again had much time on the ball and loads of touches. I came away from that game convinced that he was playing for himself, not for the team. Only later did wiser counsel say to me that maybe he cannot see and play the early simple ball, but I remain unconvinced.

Dean Smith had identified these weaknesses, and boy, did his Villa team exploit them by pressurising Mo and robbing him. In retrospect it seems so obvious. They will have studied him on the ball.

So Mo is at a crossroads. I see nothing so far to suggest that he recognises that he needs to change, but I am sure he will not have enjoyed the post mortem of the Villa game, so we live in hope.

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