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hogesar

VAR Red Card Check?!!?

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As if I couldnt possibly hate VAR anymore it took to a whole new level of stupid yesterday.

The only time we were made aware, as fans, of a VAR check was for a potential red card. Anyone tell me what that was for?

What we werent made aware of, was any VAR check for Mings handling the ball on the line....twice. Did the ref just miss both or think a hand ball on the line shouldnt be a pen? What possible reason does VAR exist if not to point out this?

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Bundia accidentally stood on their players leg and they were checking for a deliberate stamp

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I also didn't recall a VAR check on the Mings incident, but I wasn't at the ground; the red card check was visibly noted window-in-window though, which makes me feel like there wasn't one done. At the time, I was incensed; the potential handball barely got replayed and all that was really mentioned by commentary is how brave Mings was throwing his body on the ball to save a goal.

I'm sure I'll look silly in not knowing the rules have changed or something, but back in my day you would call what he did 'obstruction' and it should be an indirect free kick a yard from goal.

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After the Mings incident you could see the ref holding his earpiece and talking into it

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2 minutes ago, JF said:

Var did check the handball I believe

Yes it did and the ref actually held play up and VAR made a quick decision. But the announcer at FCR missed that one.

I'm surprised there wasn't a check on Lewis getting cleaned out, but overall I've no complaints. Buendia could have gone and Pukki must have been a bit close to a 2nd yellow.

 

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1 minute ago, Capt. Pants said:

Yes it did and the ref actually held play up and VAR made a quick decision. But the announcer at FCR missed that one.

I'm surprised there wasn't a check on Lewis getting cleaned out, but overall I've no complaints. Buendia could have gone and Pukki must have been a bit close to a 2nd yellow.

 

Yes it didn’t take any real time. There was a quick conversation through his earpiece and he then signalled for play to continue 

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Thought Buendia got cleaned out for their fourth, from behind. Couldn’t believe that one wasn’t called back. The Mings handball was a pen, twice over. How the **** VAR couldn’t get that right is beyond me. I was a big supporter of VAR but if it’s not being used properly then what is the point? Ok yesterday it would have made no difference to final result but if those incidents were in other games that could be really costly.

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19 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Thought Buendia got cleaned out for their fourth, from behind. Couldn’t believe that one wasn’t called back. The Mings handball was a pen, twice over. How the **** VAR couldn’t get that right is beyond me. I was a big supporter of VAR but if it’s not being used properly then what is the point? Ok yesterday it would have made no difference to final result but if those incidents were in other games that could be really costly.

Nah, he just got caught in possession, the player won the ball cleanly. He went down like he'd been shot to try to buy a foul, but jumped straight back up when he realised he wasn't going to get it.

Agree it was a penalty for the handball, though.

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After at least 2 of the goals the ref delayed kick off presumably for checks. 

Which brings me to something else I didn't understand. 4 second half goals (including delays to kick off), 6 second half substitutions, 2 delays for onfield treatment, but just 3 mins added time.

Now i know the result wouldn't have changed, and I was pleased it was over, but does anyone really know how added time is calculated?

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I've noticed when a team is getting hammered the added time doesn't always seem to be what it should. Even commentators on TV often have an attitude of "What's the point in dragging this on?" which really isn't how it should be even though as you say it wouldn't have made a difference to the result.

I like the idea of VAR and think it's effective at removing any cynical play and off the ball nonsense but it's got to be implemented better for those in the stadium and also I don't think this "overturning obvious errors is going to work" Most seem to agree the penalty we conceded against Palace last week was indeed a penalty yet it seems to be vague enough that had the referee have not given it then VAR wouldn't have intervened. What then if the exact replica of the incident happened at the other end? Only this time from a slightly different angle or distance from the tackle the referee doesn't think it''s a penalty. Again VAR wouldn't intervene and you'd have a penalty up one and not the other for the same incident. The whole point of VAR is to remove this. It may not have happened yet but it will.

Watching the stream yesterday there was a full on VAR interface for the red card yet not the penalty. Not sure why the inconsistency here and as you say without replays or feedback from the commentators it wouldn't have been clear to those in the ground. Needs to improve.

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

After at least 2 of the goals the ref delayed kick off presumably for checks. 

Which brings me to something else I didn't understand. 4 second half goals (including delays to kick off), 6 second half substitutions, 2 delays for onfield treatment, but just 3 mins added time.

Now i know the result wouldn't have changed, and I was pleased it was over, but does anyone really know how added time is calculated?

Perhaps the 4th official understood our problems and wanted to save us from further punishment

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2 hours ago, kick it off said:

Thought Buendia got cleaned out for their fourth, from behind. Couldn’t believe that one wasn’t called back. The Mings handball was a pen, twice over. How the **** VAR couldn’t get that right is beyond me. I was a big supporter of VAR but if it’s not being used properly then what is the point? Ok yesterday it would have made no difference to final result but if those incidents were in other games that could be really costly.

Really? I don't think VAR got anything wrong yesterday. All checks were done quickly and accurately.

 

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

After at least 2 of the goals the ref delayed kick off presumably for checks. 

Which brings me to something else I didn't understand. 4 second half goals (including delays to kick off), 6 second half substitutions, 2 delays for onfield treatment, but just 3 mins added time.

Now i know the result wouldn't have changed, and I was pleased it was over, but does anyone really know how added time is calculated?

30 seconds per sub and then any the time for any other delays like injuries and VAR checks are added on in full, I believe. However, if that is applied in full there would be lots more stoppage time in every game.

Yesterday the ref probably reduced it because the game was dead and buries and the players had just been going through the motions for a long while. It usually happens like that.

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5 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Really? I don't think VAR got anything wrong yesterday. All checks were done quickly and accurately.

You don't think Mings handling it on the goaline twice warrants a penalty then? Under the current rules, his arms were outside his body and he handled it as it bounced up from him sliding, preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity for our players. He then stretched out on the floor and it hit him on the hands again. Accidental no doubt, but under the current rules, it was a pen for both instances.

The Buendia one maybe I got wrong, I saw it a few times and it looked like the player went through the back of him whilst winning the ball, which would normally be a free kick, but I'm not going to die on that hill as it wasn't clear enough on the replays and commentators didn't mention it. The handball was clear as daylight though.

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So it's the score at 90 mins that determines the amount of time played. Subs, goals and stoppages are secondary to be used only if the result is close.

However if you want to use it as another we're dead and buried so to carry in is pointless, how about the situation where If it turns out Villa would have qualified for Europe if they'd scored a sixth.

This park football mentality in the premier league is a bit of a joke.

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33 minutes ago, kick it off said:

You don't think Mings handling it on the goaline twice warrants a penalty then? Under the current rules, his arms were outside his body and he handled it as it bounced up from him sliding, preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity for our players. He then stretched out on the floor and it hit him on the hands again. Accidental no doubt, but under the current rules, it was a pen for both instances.

I'm still not convinced by the initial block. Had that been given against us we'd be fuming.

Did it even touch his arm when he was on the ground? I haven't seen a replay which conclusively says that it did.

 

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So it's the score at 90 mins that determines the amount of time played. Subs, goals and stoppages are secondary to be used only if the result is close.

However if you want to use it as another we're dead and buried so to carry in is pointless, how about the situation where If it turns out Villa would have qualified for Europe if they'd scored a sixth.

This park football mentality in the premier league is a bit of a joke.

I didn't say it SHOULD be like that. But when one team is four goals up and both teams have declared, you often see the referee cut down on the stoppage time.

It's a bit like how in England you always, without fail, get a minute added on in the first half even if there haven't been any subs or stoppages. By the letter of the law, there shouldn't be any stoppage time, and in every other country that's the case. But refs in England always add a minute on even when there's been no time lost just for ****s and giggles. 

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Maybe if a side is 4 goals ahead by 80 mins we could end the game then.

That would at least upset people leaving early to beat the traffic...

🙃

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3 hours ago, kick it off said:

Thought Buendia got cleaned out for their fourth, from behind. Couldn’t believe that one wasn’t called back. The Mings handball was a pen, twice over. How the **** VAR couldn’t get that right is beyond me. I was a big supporter of VAR but if it’s not being used properly then what is the point? Ok yesterday it would have made no difference to final result but if those incidents were in other games that could be really costly.

You’re spot on re: their 4th, Emi was totally cleaned out from behind right in front of the ref, the guy takes the ball and scores.  I was astonished we didn’t get the fee kick but it did seem par for the course.  It may not have affected the outcome of the game but who knows what might happen with goal difference down the line - these things do matter.

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'm still not convinced by the initial block. Had that been given against us we'd be fuming.

Did it even touch his arm when he was on the ground? I haven't seen a replay which conclusively says that it did.

It does get given against us. Happened last season with Godfrey and yes, we were fuming- doesn’t change the fact that within the new handball framework then it’s a penalty.

yes it did hit his arms on the floor too.

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The Mings incident had to be a penalty imo, why do they sometimes announce when VAR is checking and sometimes they dont, the whole thing is riddled with inconsistency.

 

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59 minutes ago, kick it off said:

It does get given against us. Happened last season with Godfrey and yes, we were fuming- doesn’t change the fact that within the new handball framework then it’s a penalty.

yes it did hit his arms on the floor too.

Swings and roundabouts. We had clear penalties not given against us versus West Ham and Burnley, so for my money we're probably in debit with penalty decisions this season.

And as I said, there wasn't a replay which conclusively showed it hit his arm on the ground. 

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9 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Swings and roundabouts. We had clear penalties not given against us versus West Ham and Burnley, so for my money we're probably in debit with penalty decisions this season.

And as I said, there wasn't a replay which conclusively showed it hit his arm on the ground. 

You've forgotten John Stones playing basketball in his own area during the Man City game. 

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1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

You've forgotten John Stones playing basketball in his own area during the Man City game. 

That should've been a penalty too.

We've had two not given against us (Trybull on Haller, Godfrey on Barnes) and one not given to us (Stones handball) but none of them had an impact on the result of the match.

So we can't complain at all about penalty decisions. 

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5 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

That should've been a penalty too.

We've had two not given against us (Trybull on Haller, Godfrey on Barnes) and one not given to us (Stones handball) but none of them had an impact on the result of the match.

So we can't complain at all about penalty decisions. 

Just because VAR has been wrong both for and against us doesnt really count as a defence of it.

You say one not given to us, I say two because Mings is clear. I also think against Palace under the new rules we should have had one for handball.

And of course we can complain. Because goals affect the pattern of football matches far more than a subtle change in personnel or tactics or playing style.

If we're going to have the ballache of not being able to properly celebrate a goal until VAR has confirmed it then let's at least get things like penalty decisions correct.

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Just now, hogesar said:

Just because VAR has been wrong both for and against us doesnt really count as a defence of it.

You say one not given to us, I say two because Mings is clear. I also think against Palace under the new rules we should have had one for handball.

And of course we can complain. Because goals affect the pattern of football matches far more than a subtle change in personnel or tactics or playing style.

If we're going to have the ballache of not being able to properly celebrate a goal until VAR has confirmed it then let's at least get things like penalty decisions correct.

I wasn't defending VAR at all; in fact by pointing out three obvious penalties that weren't given, I was criticising it. My point was that those who are complaining about our lack of penalties need to realise that we have had a couple of clear penalties not given to our opponents. So no, we can't really complain.

I don't think the Mings one was a penalty. The one at Palace could've been but I don't think it was an obvious enough penalty shout for VAR to intervene- not that VAR ever bothers to intervene for penalties anyway. 

Goals affect the pattern of games, of course, but both penalties against us were quite late in the game when we were 2-0 down, and I doubt going 3-0 down (assuming the penalty was scored) would've boosted our chances of pulling it back. The Stones one was when we were 2-0 up, so luckily the pattern of game wasn't changed or we might not have won.

As for your last paragraph, I agree wholeheartedly.

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I agree with what you're saying in that in those particular games the penalties were unlikely to effect the end results and we havent been overly harshly treated in the for / against penalty situation.

What I quite poorly, admittedly, was trying to say is that we should feel aggrieved that these decisions are still not correct time and time again and at some point in the near future it's going to have a big impact on the result of a game.

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

What I quite poorly, admittedly, was trying to say is that we should feel aggrieved that these decisions are still not correct time and time again and at some point in the near future it's going to have a big impact on the result of a game.

Yep, I agree with that.

I watch more Serie A than I do Premier League and they're one extreme and the other. In Serie A, they check too much and the checks often go on for ages and even then the outcome is sometimes baffling. If you're spending four minutes to check a penalty decision it's clearly a 50-50 call, so just leave it!

In the Premier League, the only thing they bother with is offsides. There have been several clear penalties not given and I can't recall one penalty (or non-penalty) decision being overturned even when it's an obvious error.

A nice middleground would work wonders. 

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

A nice middleground would work wonders. 

heave the **** into the river, where it belongs

as all that has happened is that the numpties have finally twigged that these decisions (or calls if you have a phone handy) are subjective - apart from an offiside where it can be measured

and that is a similar pile of ****,as the offside law was not about whether a player's toe was an inch or two past the defenders back foot

if they want to change anything then give the linesmen one of those spray cans so as to mark players who shuffle up the touch line to gain  5-10 yards extra

second mark would be a booking and then off after four times, and you don't need some absurd guff to check that as the crowd can see it easily

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