We've just f'cked it up.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

I keep hearing we've been 'really unlucky' with injuries, why are people prepared to accept this explanation? We're evidently doing something wrong and it is probably the intensity of the training sessions or some bizarre training techniques somewhere. 

Interestingly, Real Madrid have a serious injury crisis at the moment and some training videos leaked which were heavily criticised by sports scientists all over the world. 

In addition, we've basically knowingly purchased players with bad injury records because they are cheaper. Why do you think Byram was available for £750k, and Drmic didn't reach his potential and play for Arsenal? Its part of the 'way' we seem to have adopted. Tim Krul had a potential career ending injury. 

Ralf had 2 muscle injuries and a groin strain last season. 

Knowingly taking a punt on players with bad injury records is something that Webber has openly admitted to, so why on earth would we then call ourselves "unlucky". 

Now, we knew that we had a significant number of players with and injury histories (Tettey, Klose, Leitner all had a lot of injuries). So why would this be a huge surprise, and why would this make us 'unlucky', would it not in fact mean that we'd not been as 'lucky' as we'd hoped when knowingly taking risks on things like this?

Now most importantly... when you know that you've got probably 5 or 6 players in your squad that would have quite a high chance of failing medicals at other clubs (like Leroy Fer did before we signed him), would that make a pretty compelling case for maxing out your 25 rather than going with 23? 

How is it "unlucky" to knowingly register only 23 players when you already have 2 player out long term (that leaves 21) and have a good 7 injury prone players in your squad (that leaves 14). 

Timm Klose = Knee Injury (had one before)

Tom Trybull = Ankle Injury (had one before)

Mario Vrancic = Calf Injury (had one before)

Ralf Fahrmann = Groin Injury (had one a year ago)

 

We've signed players who are prone to injuries, put them into really high intensity training and then cursed our luck when those injuries reoccur.

I don't think we've been "unlucky" at all, there was always a realistic chance that our high risk strategy would backfire. If anything we've been naive. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

So naive that we had our best season possibly ever last season.  And it's still early in the season this season. Players will return and things will get better.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

So naive that we had our best season possibly ever last season.  And it's still early in the season this season. Players will return and things will get better.

I hope you are right about things getting better Lakey, I really do.

But last season wasn't our "best season ever", that's just silly, we're a long way off the levels we were at between 1984 and 1994.... that's our golden decade. 

Ruined by Liverpool fans at Heysel, we'd have been in Europe 4 times rather than 1 if it weren't for that. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by TeemuVanBasten

[Bonzo 198]

All players get injuries. Some great players get injured. Robin van Persie missed two seasons and then wound up a Premiership top scorer.

The fact remains that injured players sometimes make good moneyball targets because their clubs get used to them not playing and start to undervalue them. 

Over time most players injuries average out. We have just been unlucky here nothing more.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, Bonzo said:

Robin van Persie missed two seasons and then wound up a Premiership top scorer.

That doesn't appear to be true? 

Edited October 5, 2019 by TeemuVanBasten

[Aggy 748]

So is it that we sign too many injured players or that we didn’t sign two more injured players which is the problem?

Have Bryam and Drmic been out injured his year? Was Krul out for any long spells last season? 

Who would we have got in for the extra two places? If we didn’t have money for players who were good enough hen what’s the point of having cheap players who don’t cut it?

Edited October 5, 2019 by Aggy

[Bonzo 198]

He missed a large part of 05/06 with a broken foot and much of 07/08 with a recurrent knee injury.

[Herman 9,700]

We've have been really unlucky with injuries, to be fair.

[lake district canary 4,531]

16 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I hope you are right about things getting better Lakey, I really do.

But last season wasn't our "best season ever", that's just silly, we're a long way off the levels we were at between 1984 and 1994.... that's our golden decade. 

Ruined by Liverpool fans at Heysel, we'd have been in Europe 4 times rather than 1 if it weren't for that. 

Those days were different and it's difficult to compare but I think that the feelings I had last season outweighed even the heady days of the 80's and 90's, outstanding though they were. Maybe there is an element of feeling that now is the best time....and in a way that is how it should be - and also this season the win against Man City was as epic as anything we have done in the past...and that was just four games ago.

We've had a rough three week spell, no doubt about it, but the teamwork and potential does not just disappear for good after a couple or three bad results. It will return - and imo we will be stronger for those bad results as players come back from injury, spirit is renewed and positivity returns.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So is it that we sign too many injured players or that we didn’t sign two more injured players which is the problem?

Have Bryam and Drmic been out injured his year? Was Krul out for any long spells last season? 

Who would we have got in for the extra two places? If we didn’t have money for players who were good enough hen what’s the point of having cheap players who don’t cut it?

"Have Bryam and Drmic been out injured his year?"

Thanks for all those rhetorical questions Aggy. I'm surprised you'd forgotten about the 18 days Drmic was out with a Hamstring injury in August though, and Sam Byram is currently carrying an ankle injury??? 

So obviously the answer is yes to both? 

[City 2nd 191]

8 minutes ago, Herman said:

We've have been really unlucky with injuries, to be fair.

I agree to an extent with the op. But everyone is overlooking the fact that we conceded 58 goals last season with Zimmerman, Klose and Hanley available along with Godfrey, Lewis and Aaron’s.

this season we have conceded 21 in eight matches, in a defence that has included Godfrey, Aaron’s and Lewis.

so what difference will Zimmerman and Klose make IF and when they come back!?

It was very very apparent when we were promoted that our defensive frailties needed addressing. It wasn’t! You reap what you sow! A hard lesson Mr Webber!

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

14 minutes ago, Bonzo said:

He missed a large part of 05/06 with a broken foot and much of 07/08 with a recurrent knee injury.

That's not the same as "missing two seasons" though is it... There's an entire season in between those two...

And he played 38 games in 05/06 and 23 games in 07/08 so didn't really miss them at all? 

[Surfer 1,547]

It would have been a tough season even without the injuries. But the fact is we have them and the players we have left fit are not good enough to successfully compete at this level. Now there is nothing we can do to change that until the injuries start to clear up, what the players do not need is a loss of confidence or support from the fans on top of everything else. So we know what we need to do ... OTBC

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

3 out of 4 of our defence today would have been regarded as our first choice defenders, the exception being Amadou. Several have posted on here that Amadou is OK as a back up CH. We were **** defensively today. It's all very well our fullbacks looking great going forward but they cannot stop the crosses coming in. We were trounced today by little more than a Championship team and there aren't really any excuses. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Capt. Pants

[JF 694]

2 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

I agree to an extent with the op. But everyone is overlooking the fact that we conceded 58 goals last season with Zimmerman, Klose and Hanley available along with Godfrey, Lewis and Aaron’s.

this season we have conceded 21 in eight matches, in a defence that has included Godfrey, Aaron’s and Lewis.

so what difference will Zimmerman and Klose make IF and when they come back!?

It was very very apparent when we were promoted that our defensive frailties needed addressing. It wasn’t! You reap what you sow! A hard lesson Mr Webber!

 

That’s all very true but when you have players with the potential that they have then a club like us has to play them. We could have replaced Godfrey, Aaron’s and Lewis and still be relegated. How would them sitting on our bench in the PL help their progression as players and huge financial assets to the club? The only way they will reach their potential is to play regularly at this level and learn from it. Where I agree with the OP is that we should clearly have gone with a squad of 25 and bought two more additions in.

[hogesar 9,611]

I thought Farke and co done enough to be given a little more respect than this.

Well, theyll get it from me at least.

[Aggy 748]

20 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

"Have Bryam and Drmic been out injured his year?"

Thanks for all those rhetorical questions Aggy. I'm surprised you'd forgotten about the 18 days Drmic was out with a Hamstring injury in August though, and Sam Byram is currently carrying an ankle injury??? 

So obviously the answer is yes to both? 

So they’ve both had minor injuries, and neither of them plays at centre back (where our “injury crisis” is at its worst). The issue at the moment is that three of our four centre backs are injured and two of them have been injured all season. The three who are injured aren’t new signings. 

Youve also failed to answer my second point - who would we have got in? Presumably you wanted us to sign a fifth centre back? Who? If we’d have signed a fifth centre back you’d have been up in arms that we were wasting money when we already had 4 and needed strengthening in other places.

So which two players did we have enough money to bring in who would have helped our situation? It’s all well and good saying not filling the 25 is inexcusable etc. Etc. But what’s the point in having twenty five if two of them aren’t good enough?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I thought Farke and co done enough to be given a little more respect than this.

Well, theyll get it from me at least.

I'm not sure why you've brought Farke into this Hogesar. 

He's never been in control of comings and goings, he's a head coach.

Its not his fault the club have decided to limit themselves to £1.75m in transfer fees this summer, half the spend of Barnsley, and he would like to have spent money - he has said so himself. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So they’ve both had minor injuries, and neither of them plays at centre back (where our “injury crisis” is at its worst). The issue at the moment is that three of our four centre backs are injured and two of them have been injured all season. The three who are injured aren’t new signings. 

Youve also failed to answer my second point - who would we have got in? Presumably you wanted us to sign a fifth centre back? Who? If we’d have signed a fifth centre back you’d have been up in arms that we were wasting money when we already had 4 and needed strengthening in other places.

So which two players did we have enough money to bring in who would have helped our situation? It’s all well and good saying not filling the 25 is inexcusable etc. Etc. But what’s the point in having twenty five if two of them aren’t good enough?

Well I thought that Semi Ajayi from Rotherham was great value at a rumoured £1.5m and he had the added bonus of being able to play in midfield. Scored against us last season.

We could only sign homegrown players as we've maxed out our foreign quota, but he would have been a handy understudy to Godfrey as the 'ball playing' defender even in the event that all of our centre backs being fit, and a useful insurance policy against relegation (at which point we'd almost certainly be selling Godfrey).

I'm afraid I disagree that centre back is the only area of concern though, the Hernandez injury has exposed our severe lack of depth out wide and has unfortunately made it more difficult to drop Stiepermann at a time when he is in very poor form. The option to move Cantwell or Buendia inside would have been nice. 

There were a few options out wide, Harry Wilson secured a late loan to Bournemouth, could potentially have had a chance if we'd made a move early in the window?

There is no doubt that he is an exceptional talent. I suspect we didn't use our second loan spot because we were reserving it for a potential Rhodes loan from Sheffield Wednesday. If we were then that backfired didn't it... Its a shame we didn't utilise that second domestic loan spot. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by TeemuVanBasten

[Aggy 748]

17 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Well I thought that Semi Ajayi from Rotherham was great value at a rumoured £1.5m and he had the added bonus of being able to play in midfield. Scored against us last season.

We could only sign homegrown players as we've maxed out our foreign quota, but he would have been a handy understudy to Godfrey as the 'ball playing' defender even in the event that all of our centre backs being fit, and a useful insurance policy against relegation (at which point we'd almost certainly be selling Godfrey).

I'm afraid I disagree that centre back is the only area of concern though, the Hernandez injury has exposed our severe lack of depth out wide and has unfortunately made it more difficult to drop Stiepermann at a time when he is in very poor form. The option to move Cantwell or Buendia inside would have been nice. 

There were a few options out wide, Harry Wilson secured a late loan to Bournemouth, could potentially have had a chance if we'd made a move early in the window?

There is no doubt that he is an exceptional talent. I suspect we didn't use our second loan spot because we were reserving it for a potential Rhodes loan from Sheffield Wednesday. If we were then that backfired didn't it... Its a shame we didn't utilise that second domestic loan spot. 

Surely Roberts is the Hernandez replacement and is presumably not good enough (otherwise he’d have been played). Roberts is a perfect example of the problem we had - what’s the point having someone who isn’t good enough to play? You’re better off saving your money and going without. 

Ajayi rumoured between 1.5 and 2.5 million. Offer of first team football at West Brom or being fourth or fifth choice here - why would he come? The deal to bring in Wilson is supposedly 3million plus salary. 

So to bring in those two, you’re looking at around 5-6 million plus salary. For a fifth choice centre back and a loanee winger. Unrealistic.

I haven’t said the defence is our only problem but that is where the “crisis” is. Hernandez being injured is one of those things teams have to deal with. Having three centre backs out and a fourth carrying a knock isn’t “one of those things”, it’s extremely unlucky. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Surely Roberts is the Hernandez replacement and is presumably not good enough (otherwise he’d have been played).

Somebody literally said that Drmic isn't good enough about 3 minutes before he came on, and he managed to do what none of our other players had managed for about 265 minutes.... so I say lets give Roberts a start or two.

If he's not good enough why did we sign him? Or is that an admission that our transfer business has not been good? 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So to bring in those two, you’re looking at around 5-6 million plus salary. For a fifth choice centre back and a loanee winger. Unrealistic.

If that sort of spending is deemed "unrealistic", then staying up is simply unrealistic then. 

That's unfortunate because I thought we had a real chance. 

That's really not mega money, not when actually staying up is worth a further £100m. 

With Webster going for £20m and Mings for £25m.... if we can't afford £2.5m for Ajayi then what are we even doing at this level? 

And fifth choice? Really? Under Hanley who played about 7 games for us last season? With Zimmermann out injured he'd have been 3rd choice at least until Zimmermann got back.

But what would have been stopping him forcing his way into the side? He's a talent, and West Brom have got a bargain. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by TeemuVanBasten

[Aggy 748]

7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Somebody literally said that Drmic isn't good enough about 3 minutes before he came on, and he managed to do what none of our other players had managed for about 265 minutes.... so I say lets give Roberts a start or two.

If he's not good enough why did we sign him? Or is that an admission that our transfer business has not been good? 

“Somebody” May have said that, but our coaching staff have brought him on quite a lot. They haven’t brought Roberts on quite a lot.

Why did we sign Roberts? Because we needed cover. But we didn’t have the money to get anyone decent in. As I said, that was the problem - we couldn’t just go out and fill the extra two places. We would have either brought in cheap players who weren’t good enough or not brought players in. 5-6 million plus Wilson’s salary for a fourth or fifth  choice centre back and a loanee was never going to be anywhere near realistic. 

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If that sort of spending is deemed "unrealistic", then staying up is simply unrealistic then. 

That's unfortunate because I thought we had a real chance. 

That's really not mega money, not when actually staying up is worth a further £100m. 

With Webster going for £20m and Mings for £25m.... if we can't afford £2.5m for Ajayi then what are we even doing at this level? 

And fifth choice? Really? Under Hanley who played about 7 games for us last season? 

Why is staying up unrealistic? Because we’ve lost a few games? We got promoted without spending much. We beat Man City. We thrashed Newcastle. We’ve lost games when we’ve had virtually no defenders fully fit. 

If Villa go down having paid that money they’ll be in trouble. I’d rather do it our way and not risk doing a Portsmouth or Bolton personally. 

So you think it would have been prudent to start the season with five centre backs? 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Aggy

[Branston Pickle 3,632]

We have been unlucky with injuries but re our defence there is a lot more to it than just injuries.  

I listened to a bit of Snorefolk on the way out of the game and Greg Downs got it spot on - he mentioned that we let in 58 goals last season and needed a bit of an overhaul to defence but only really signed Byram, and in his opinion that wasn’t enough - we otherwise have precisely the same defence at our disposal.  

We can’t really blame injuries alone when 3 out of 4 of our first choice players have been playing almost every game - Klose or Zimm playing wouldn’t have suddenly stopped all the goals we’re shipping.  Can we really expect them to do that much better when playing much better opponents? 

[curious yellow 184]

4 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Can we really expect them to do that much better when playing much better opponents? 

We already have. 

[mastoola 183]

I was listening to lee Dixon on  5's football daily after the Spurs Bayern game . He said George Graham blamed every goal on the midfield. 

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

There's a balance to be had between us spending **** all and Villa spending £150m and I'm not sure we got that right. I was hoping for a far better attempt at survival than previously than that humiliating effort under Neil. Financially we are better off (?) but it's the same old same old really.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'm not sure why you've brought Farke into this Hogesar. 

He's never been in control of comings and goings, he's a head coach.

Its not his fault the club have decided to limit themselves to £1.75m in transfer fees this summer, half the spend of Barnsley, and he would like to have spent money - he has said so himself. 

I will bring Farke into it. Yes Webber/the club have left us short in certain areas which, combined with the injuries has left us struggling. However you don’t need to spend money to teach talented players to do all they can to stop crosses coming in to the box. You don’t need to spend money to drill a defence to mark the opposition striker. Many shoestring outfits over the years have had tight, well drilled defences. Indeed look at Shef U who have not spent big on their defence this year.

for someone who is clearly a talented coach, the quality of our defending is a real blot on Farkes copybook. He has to be able to get them defending better than they are. 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,017]

So are we doing anything different in training this season to what we did last season and if so what is it we are doing differently?.........

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

So are we doing anything different in training this season to what we did last season and if so what is it we are doing differently?.........

There was a quote from Domogella last week in a pinkun article where he suggested they have been doing more high intensity sprint work because the stats show you need to do more sprints in premier league games.