We need a Plan B

[lake district canary 4,530]

3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

They managed today with a plan what Manchester City didn’t. 

Agreed.  They set out to stop us and it worked, although if we had been just a little bit more patient on the ball, we might have done better instead of trying to force it. 

[CDMullins 436]

Worst thing about today was the start, I timed it at 20 minutes before we completed a pass in their half. 

 

20 minutes, against Burnley. 

 

Leitner aside the lads seemed to want to pass responsibility today, Lewis and Byram were guilty of playing back instead of whipping a ball a cross the box. 

 

It's not the end of the world, is wasn't that bad, it's going to happen. 

 

On a side note, I feel so sorry for the Burnley fans, their football is horrible. 

[hogesar 9,609]

Interesting that Farke is now classed by some as having a record of having an 'appauling use' of substitutes.

Probs worth looking at how many games we turned around last season.

Oh, and how many late goals we scored.

Oh, and the fact we won the f*cking league despite the odds being significantly against us.

Oh, and finally the fact that I didn't see anyone on the bench who could have provided what we needed. We needed to gain control in midfield early on in the second half and we had no options to make that happen. Roberts coming on earlier was probably seen by Farke as more likely we'd lose what little control we had in the middle with less cover on their counters.

[jk147 8]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

We don't seem to be coping as well with the transition to only one game a week compared to the two a week in the Championship. 

how do you work this out? 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

The trouble is that you see games like WHU (a) and Burnley (a) and some supporters will class those as winnable games, when the reality is that they are incredibly difficult games away from home against sides far more established and with far greater resources than us at the moment. A draw in either game would have been a fine result.

We have so many injuries at the moment than some of the 'plan b' options simply aren't available as compared to last season when we would go to a wing back system and use Onel and Max as wing backs and stick Rhodes on with Pukki. We have so few defensive options that Amadou is playing in a position where he is less experienced and Godfrey is carrying an injury. Byram is just learning his way.

With the problems we have at the moment, and undoubtedly the hardest first six fixtures of any side in the league, to have 6 points at this stage is a fine achievement. Cut the manager some slack maybe. 

[vos 155]

Just watched the TV highlights and I thought we were more in the game than comments and the Radio Norfolk commentary would suggest. One has no right to question DF's tactics but I just do not understand the markings at corners. Once again a big guy like Wood seemed to have a completely free run to nod in a simple goal at the near post. I realise we have several small players but you would have thought one of our bigger guys would have been assigned to mark him. Godfrey looked unusually slow in covering for the second goal. Perhaps not fully fit. We did lack our normal interplay up front partly because our wing backs seemed subdued. I see no reason why we should not get a result at Selhurst Park.

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

57 minutes ago, jk147 said:

how do you work this out? 

Extra time training rather than playing matches. We had few injuries last season playing more matches.

[Aggy 747]

I’m not sure we can play another way. As mentioned above, the side has been put together based on playing a certain style.

What we can do though is the basics like dealing with set pieces better. The second today was one of those things (the mistake being giving the ball away playing out but we’ll have to accept that is a risk in how we play). 

The first though was sloppy and far too easy. If they don’t score that then who knows how the game turns out. 

There will be times when we don’t fire on all cylinders, and we need to be able to turn at least some of those times into draws. Best way of doing that is doing the basics right - defending corners well is 90 per cent done on the training pitch and 10 per cent organisation on field. 

[splendidrush 698]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Best way of doing that is doing the basics right - defending corners well is 90 per cent done on the training pitch and 10 per cent organisation on field. 

If defending corners is 'basic' then Pep has a real problem, the most expensively assembled squad in the World have a terrible record defending all set pieces. 

Perhaps you should give him a call, tell him to get them out on the training pitch. 

[Peanuts 150]

Webber made the point in a recent interview that if a team plays it long and it doesn't work nobody expects them to have a plan B of quick short passing. There's nothing wrong with our style of play. If you make mistakes at the back and fail to take your chances up front, this is what happens. They were another big strong physical side and unfortunately we didn't really have the strength to match them or the quality to brush them aside. The biggest disappointment for me was that despite having a decent amount of possession around their box in the second half I don't think their keeper made a save.

As to the point about us not liking being pressed, well sure but on recent evidence neither do Man City or Arsenal. It's a calculated risk for both sides as the more numbers they commit to pressing us the more space they leave if we break through. Presumably if we weren't prepared for teams to press us at the back we wouldn't play quite so much tikka takka in our own box so it must all be part of the plan.

[Yellowhammer 86]

Our problem yesterday  was they stopped us playing out from the back ,always a dangerous game i feel ,one missed pass and you are in trouble .need to get it out quicker upfield .

[Monty13 2,229]

Others have mentioned it but our Plan Bs are all injured. We aren’t going to play another way, the only way we change things up is to have some options that can  alter a dynamic of it, like the pace of a Hernandez.

The problem is the squad is so threadbare the bench doesn’t offer many options.

Theres clearly something about Roberts that hasn’t earned him Farke’s trust yet, he looked lively when he came on but Farke clearly didn’t want to make the change earlier when Roberts was the only decent option to change things up on the bench.

I was genuinely worried yesterday with how visibly frustrated Emi was getting he was going to do something rash, I thought he should have been subbed but then you look at the bench and there wasn’t an option equally or more likely to get a goal IMHO.

[Hairy Canary 667]

13 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Serious question.  Why did McLean stay on the pitch?  Can anyone say what he contributed today?  Anonymous.  Never mentioned on commentary or feed.

Because once Tetty went off we had no other fit midfield players! Who do you suggest would take his place or were you thinking of not having a holding midfielder at all?

[Clint 221]

Does anyone knows what’s going on with Roberts? To bring him on for a couple of minutes was a bit of a nonsense.

He’s our most direct player at present in that whilst he doesn’t have the pace of Onel, he’ll take people on and have a shot. Surely he should’ve got at least 20 mins yesterday to have a go?

[king canary 7,559]

45 minutes ago, Clint said:

Does anyone knows what’s going on with Roberts? To bring him on for a couple of minutes was a bit of a nonsense.

He’s our most direct player at present in that whilst he doesn’t have the pace of Onel, he’ll take people on and have a shot. Surely he should’ve got at least 20 mins yesterday to have a go?

Yeah I'd agree with this. A bit of pace and directness can force a team to sit deeper and give the likes of Buendia a bit more space to work in. Giving him two minutes was never going to allow for any impact.

[hogesar 9,609]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I'd agree with this. A bit of pace and directness can force a team to sit deeper and give the likes of Buendia a bit more space to work in. Giving him two minutes was never going to allow for any impact.

I don't think Farke brought him on thinking he'd score two goals in 2 minutes and we'd get a draw. I imagine it was more of his man / team management. I would think Roberts hasn't quite shown enough in training or the right attitude or a combination of things hence us not seeing much of him so far this season. 

[JF 694]

I don’t think we need a plan b, our plan a works superbly when everyone is on their game. I think what we need is more players coming through the door in January that are capable of playing our plan a game. 

[Aggy 747]

9 hours ago, splendidrush said:

If defending corners is 'basic' then Pep has a real problem, the most expensively assembled squad in the World have a terrible record defending all set pieces. 

Perhaps you should give him a call, tell him to get them out on the training pitch. 

Funny how there are plenty of managers who have made careers (and teams who have survived) based almost entirely on being well organised defensively, not conceding from set pieces and being a threat from set pieces, even with extremely limited players. How come Allardyce’s teams always stayed up? Do you think they just suddenly ‘remembered’ how to defend set pieces and stopped leaking goals when he arrived, or do you think it’s because they got organised on the training pitch?

I’m not suggesting we should sit with two banks of four or sacrifice how we play - and as I said their second goal yesterday was one of those things we’ll have to accept and I’m okay with. But we concede far too many from set pieces. 

And I’d probably guess that Man City don’t spend as much time training to defend set pieces as they perhaps ought to. It doesn’t matter for them (well, actually, it might matter as we saw last weekend). But it definitely matters for us, because we aren’t good enough to score three on our “off days” (which Man City often are), so we need to be as tight defensively as we can from probably the easiest bit of defending to practice - defending set pieces.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Aggy

[CDMullins 436]

2 hours ago, Clint said:

Does anyone knows what’s going on with Roberts? To bring him on for a couple of minutes was a bit of a nonsense.

He’s our most direct player at present in that whilst he doesn’t have the pace of Onel, he’ll take people on and have a shot. Surely he should’ve got at least 20 mins yesterday to have a go?

Contractual maybe?

I've read that unsatisfied parent clubs can recall players should they have not taken part in 'x' amount of games.

[splendidrush 698]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Funny how there are plenty of managers who have made careers (and teams who have survived) based almost entirely on being well organised defensively, not conceding from set pieces and being a threat from set pieces, even with extremely limited players. How come Allardyce’s teams always stayed up? Do you think they just suddenly learnt ‘remembered’ how to defend set pieces and stopped leaking goals when he arrived, or do you think it’s because they got organised on the training pitch?

I’m not suggesting we should sit with two banks of four or sacrifice how we play - and as I said their second goal yesterday was one of those things we’ll have to accept and I’m okay with. But we concede far too many from set pieces. 

And I’d probably guess that Man City don’t spend as much time training to defend set pieces as they perhaps ought to. It doesn’t matter for them (well, actually, it might matter as we saw last weekend). But it definitely matters for us, because we are good enough to score three on our “off days”, so we need to be as tight defensively as we can from probably the easiest bit of defending to practice - defending set pieces.

The point is that we don't have the personnel, the way Farke plays accepts that we will concede a few, I, for one am happy with that. 

As for Big Sam's Teams, agricultural is the best description, I hope we never play that kind of football. 

[Aggy 747]

2 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

The point is that we don't have the personnel, the way Farke plays accepts that we will concede a few, I, for one am happy with that. 

As for Big Sam's Teams, agricultural is the best description, I hope we never play that kind of football. 

1) We don’t have personnel to stand on the front post? (Nobody there for their first yesterday). We don’t have personnel to mark players and stop them having free headers? We decide to leave our left back marking Van Dijk rather than one of our 6 foot centre backs? 

2) Who has said they do want us to play like that? 

The point is actually that we make too many basic mistakes defending set pieces. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Aggy

[splendidrush 698]

1) a lot of Teams don't put players on posts anymore, that's how Kenny scored against the League Champions. 

2) 

13 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Funny how there are plenty of managers who have made careers (and teams who have survived) based almost entirely on being well organised defensively, not conceding from set pieces and being a threat from set pieces, even with extremely limited players. How come Allardyce’s teams always stayed up? 

 

Your example, not mine.

[Aggy 747]

3 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

1) a lot of Teams don't put players on posts anymore, that's how Kenny scored against the League Champions. 

2) 

Your example, not mine.

1) Okay we shouldn’t change how we set up at set pieces then. Leave a man off the post and keep conceding because other teams don’t do it.

2) Thanks, perhaps you could read the paragraph immediately after my “example” that you’ve quoted. 🙄

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,775]

I'm a big fan of Farke, as we all are, but no coach is perfect and they'd all admit they can improve on things. One thing letting down Farke this season is his lack of plan B, as I can't really recall seeing anything so far in our matches that resembles a plan B (Drmic has never really joined Pukki to form a front two) even when we've been losing in most of them. If plan A hasn't worked for 70, 75, 80 minutes or whatever then it's probably not going to work that day so you need to at least tweak it to give a 'comfortable' opponent something to think about.

Last year, there was a regularly used plan B. It was another attacker (often Rhodes) come on for Lewis, and a change to three at the back. Aarons and Hernandez played as attacking wing backs and the holding midfielder dropped into the defence when needed to make a back three. This didn't compromise on our style of play, but simply a change in formation and two pacy players running from deep gave the opponent something else to think about.

Obviously we haven't been able to do this so far in the Premier League as Hernandez has been injured all season and Aarons is out now too

But Farke is an excellent coach and no doubt has lots of tactical knowledge. So why doesn't he develop a slight change to the existing system to use for the final 15-20 minutes when plan A hasn't worked? 

I'm not talking about pumping it long or abandoning the quick, short passing. Just a subtle tweak in formation, for example, a midfield diamond with two up top. Yesterday that would've meant Drmic for Stiepermann, and a front two of Pukki and Drmic, with Buendia in the hole, Leitner as a deep-lying playmaker and McLean and Cantwell as wide/central midfielders with the full backs taking more risks and providing the width, as we had nothing to lose anyway.

I'm not necessarily advocating the diamond, just putting it forward as a suggestion. A change in formation, as opposed to a change in style, passes as a plan B.

[king canary 7,559]

35 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

The point is that we don't have the personnel, the way Farke plays accepts that we will concede a few, I, for one am happy with that. 

As for Big Sam's Teams, agricultural is the best description, I hope we never play that kind of football. 

There is a difference between conceding a few and conceding over two a game as we are currently.

[hogesar 9,609]

I think Farke has briefly mentioned our plan B and we saw it last season...3 at the back and wingbacks. We turned several games because of it. The reality is we dont have the personnel right now for us to use it. I imagine the belief is opting for that with our current set of available players would weaken us further.

[Duncan Edwards 2,216]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

Last year, there was a regularly used plan B. It was another attacker (often Rhodes) come on for Lewis, and a change to three at the back. Aarons and Hernandez played as attacking wing backs and the holding midfielder dropped into the defence when needed to make a back three. This didn't compromise on our style of play, but simply a change in formation and two pacy players running from deep gave the opponent something else to think about.

Obviously we haven't been able to do this so far in the Premier League as Hernandez has been injured all season and Aarons is out now too

But Farke is an excellent coach and no doubt has lots of tactical knowledge. So why doesn't he develop a slight change to the existing system to use for the final 15-20 minutes when plan A hasn't worked? 

 

You’ve kind of answered your own question. As I said, Plan B is a lot like Plan A but possibly with subtle changes in formation and different faces. 

 

Farke did this again yeaterday; we went 3 at the back and employed wing backs as confirmed by Michael Bailey on Twitter:

 

FTR, Norwich are now in a back 3: Amadou, Godfrey, Lewis. McLean and Byram wing-backs.

 

⏱️81 | 🍷 2-0 🔰

 

#NCFC #BURNOR #Burnley

 

So there you have the subtle changes that you’re advocating. 🤷‍♂️

 

Of course it isnt perfect and we are hampered by injuries but I think the only real criticism that can be levelled is perhaps the timing of these changes. Even then, I think it’s because of the belief in our Plan A and wanting to give it as long as possible to work. Given what I’ve seen. I’d struggle to argue against that philosophy either. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Duncan Edwards
Typo

[Beefy is a legend 224]

There is an almost breathtaking arrogance of some on here to presume that they have greater tactical knowledge and awareness than Farke. Or indeed Guardiola!

Edited September 22, 2019 by Beefy is a legend

[CDMullins 436]

9 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

There is an almost breathtaking arrogance of some on here to presume that they have greater tactical knowledge and awareness than Farke. Or indeed Guardiola!

So just to confirm you have to be a Premier League manager to have an opinion on here?

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Preferably with a European pedigree. We don't want Pulis or Dyche posting on here thank you very much....