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KiwiScot

Crystal Palace Tickets

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7 minutes ago, GMF said:

You’re right in part, Nutty - it’s the Club who named the groups, not the fans. But they certainly don’t use words like ‘elite’, which is something I’ve generally tried to avoid, simply because it misses the main point relating to the consequences of the revised scheme and its associated weaknesses. 

No they don't. They'd probably use the word fair. So is that what we're going with now? Criticising the "fair" groups...

Amazing.

Still, at least they're not "more loyal" anymore....

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People have to try and see all sides of this. Like all of us , we tend to see things from our own perspective. I didn't go to many away games last year , but I did want to go to Liverpool and West Ham. I paid £50 with an expectation that this would enhance my chances of getting a ticket. The Club sold too many £50 expectations for these games, but not it would seem for the Burnley game. I'm a season ticket holder for 20 plus years and for home games I'm a staunch reliable fan. For away games I'm a Jonny Come Lately . I have to say that many of the people I know desperately trying to get tickets to Liverpool went to more away games than me last year, but only in the later part of the season. This whole demand thing had already begun around Christmas by the way. Yes I went to Wigan along with 5,000 others , but would I have bothered if we were mid table? No chance. Standing in the away end at Liverpool and West Ham this year I suspect that many people around me were the same.

Immediately the position becomes very difficult to find a solution to .

The Club is also in a position where it would be foolish not to benefit from this substantial increase in demand. Pure economics apply here - finite resource for infinite wants - demand exceeds supply. So the prices increase. In this case however prices haven't increased so instead the Club makes its money from a membership scheme. It is still the same thing in a different guise - the demand means that people pay £50 that probably wouldn't have last year.

Another factor to make the ultimate decision such that no one solution is agreeable to everyone.

We then have to take into account the other factors.

Loyalty

Ageing fan base

How long the demand will apply

Fans bucking the system (already I hear about one fan buying 20 tickets, some of the 750 "selling tickets" and so on. 

 

In practice all of the consultation with the fan groups (see earlier comments about ageing fan base) may not even get to talk to some of the "fans" (potential fans)  the Club are trying to reach out to . What if they consult with the Social Club, The Trust , my mates in the Upper Barclay, the people in the City Stand , who will they actually be consulting with ? There is a danger it will be the same older folks that have an emotive interest .

For what its worth I do thing the 750 should be rewarded. Where you draw the line here (what about those that went to 9 games?) I really don't know. I don't think the Club should have charged a tiered membership.

I do not know the solution though. Already we see a massive issue with demand (Liverpool/ Burnley) which really is the key and the cause of the whole issue.

Good debate though. One of the better on here I would say.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't want to get sucked into another circular debate but I think it worth repeating- nobody was being kept out for the last two or three seasons. Anyone who wanted to follow Norwich away last season had multiple chances- however it appears these people only want to do so when the league and opposition is glamorous enough for them.

So again the priority is keeping people out because they didn't build up any loyalty last season.

I honestly can't see the problem with rewarding loyalty like for like and then make more tickets more wifely available.

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5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

No they don't. They'd probably use the word fair. So is that what we're going with now? Criticising the "fair" groups...

Amazing.

Still, at least they're not "more loyal" anymore....

Sorry, Nutty, but I’m not sure who you are referring to in the context of your use of ‘they’ - the Club, or fans (on this thread)?

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2 minutes ago, GMF said:

Sorry, Nutty, but I’m not sure who you are referring to in the context of your use of ‘they’ - the Club, or fans (on this thread)?

The club would probably use the word fair to describe the groups.

I don't really see this as an issue. I described the group as elite, others disagreed and described the group loyal.

Is one more acceptable than the other? Are we now in a state where using the wrong or unapproved word is "groupism" or something like....

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9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So again the priority is keeping people out because they didn't build up any loyalty last season.

I honestly can't see the problem with rewarding loyalty like for like and then make more tickets more wifely available.

No, that isn't the priority. It may be an effect but it isn't a priority.

I have no issue with saying I'll happily see fans who follow Norwich away regardless of opposition prioritised over fans who are only interested in following us depending on the opposition. I'd be surprised if you disagreed with that honestly.

Take GP's beard above- he says he isn't that interested in going to less glamorous games when we're a midtable Championship team. That is fine and his prerogative but for me he shouldn't have the same chance of getting a ticket as someone who went to 7 or 8 away games last season. 

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I have for many years followed Norwich away very regularly through the good and the bad, I am one of the 750 in the so called elite group I do every year 85 percent plus of away games

for someone to pay 50 quid and have the same priority as me would be wrong

i am in the group because of my support over at least 20 years 

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1 hour ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Fans bucking the system (already I hear about one fan buying 20 tickets, some of the 750 "selling tickets" and so on

How can one person buy 20 tickets ? Surely you would need 20 memberships?

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Just now, FenwayFrank said:

How can one person buy 20 tickets ? Surely you would need 20 memberships?

Yeah you would. I'd assume he's part of some sizeable group if that is true.

If the 750 could buy more than one ticket I'd be surprised if any of the big games even got past their grouping. Now that would truly be elite...

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This is going to run and run. 

 

The old system was unfair as it was too strongly weighted in favour of home season ticket holders. 

 

The new new system isn’t fair because they’ve had to introduce an arbitrary line of ten games. A ten gamer is ranked the equal of an away season ticket holder who might have done a dozen more games but superior to somebody who only did one game less. That doesn’t sit right but it was the club’s decision. 

 

The old system couldn’t be retained or tweaked because the club made a decision to commercialise it. 

 

The new system, because it is commercialised, has priced out some fans, especially those with kids as multiples of £50 soon mount up. A barrier to a new generation of fans. 

 

The ability to pay £50 and be on an equal standing with “relative” away day regulars and above home season ticket holders who haven’t paid is an access path for New away day supporters. With the old system they’d have had no chance of obtaining a ticket to a high profile game (Yes, I know, they could have gone to Rotherham etc but realistically, the high profile games are that for a reason - that’s why demand is always higher), now they do. 

 

The whole argument surrounding loyalty is divisive but also largely nonsense. Seemingly if you went to some games last season then your loyalty should be measured and rewarded. To a degree, I get that. But a championship winning season wouldn’t be the most stringent scale to measure against, would it? Oooh look, we went to games when we were winning every week. Brilliant. What about the people who were going when we were getting trounced every week? Is that not a more robust display of loyalty? I’d suggest it is. But then what do you do? 

 

Loyalty isn’t one season. It’s something displayed over time, in varying ways and through a multitude of circumstances. 

 

If if you bring longevity into it; that punishes the younger fans. I started going away in 1986. It wouldn’t be fair to give me priority over someone born in 1994 or for me to be a lower priority than someone who went to Man U in 1967 or whatever. 

 

What about exiled fans? I know one poster for instance would often secure tickets for games in the North West as that’s where he is based. He is now, at best, in a lottery for those tickets. That doesn’t seem fair. He’s loyally attended these games year after year and is now in a scrum. His loyalty hasn’t been rewarded. 

 

It’s impossible. However you approach it, somebody will be disadvantaged. I’ve urged people from the beginning to try and see it from beyond their own extremely narrow viewpoint, but it is difficult. The club have made a bit of a fist of it. They chose to commercialise it. They (rightly) protected the away season ticket holders. They then drew a line in the sand that automatically divided the fans. Ten games or more and you’re in. Nine games or less and you’re out. Ten games you’re the equal of somebody who did twenty-three, nine games you’re the equal of somebody that did none. Ouch. But, I suspect that decision was made purely on numbers. The fact that ten+ and the ASTH came to about 750 meant that only 25% of tickets were ring-fenced. That left 75% up for grabs and maintained the attractiveness of the £50 package for those willing to pay it. A sensible business decision and sod all to do with loyalty. 

 

Unfortunately, that’s how fans have interpreted it and it’s understandable. But talking and arguing about loyalty when you’re only considering a 12 month period is daft. And we do need to facilitate new, younger fans getting access to games. This system is far from perfect and the lack of family provision and inhibitive costs are only two of many criticisms but there really isn’t a system out there that is a good and fair fit for everyone. 

 

 

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God, that’s long. Sorry.

 

to summarise:

 

Loyalty isn’t a simple thing to measure. It’s definitely not defined over any 12 month period. 

The old system didn’t work for some

the new system doesn’t work for some 

I don’t think there is a system that works for all

I think the club have made purely business/commercial decisions based on numbers from a report and haven’t factored in the “human” element/response. 

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6 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

This is going to run and run. 

 

The old system was unfair as it was too strongly weighted in favour of home season ticket holders. 

 

The new new system isn’t fair because they’ve had to introduce an arbitrary line of ten games. A ten gamer is ranked the equal of an away season ticket holder who might have done a dozen more games but superior to somebody who only did one game less. That doesn’t sit right but it was the club’s decision. 

 

The old system couldn’t be retained or tweaked because the club made a decision to commercialise it. 

 

The new system, because it is commercialised, has priced out some fans, especially those with kids as multiples of £50 soon mount up. A barrier to a new generation of fans. 

 

The ability to pay £50 and be on an equal standing with “relative” away day regulars and above home season ticket holders who haven’t paid is an access path for New away day supporters. With the old system they’d have had no chance of obtaining a ticket to a high profile game (Yes, I know, they could have gone to Rotherham etc but realistically, the high profile games are that for a reason - that’s why demand is always higher), now they do. 

 

The whole argument surrounding loyalty is divisive but also largely nonsense. Seemingly if you went to some games last season then your loyalty should be measured and rewarded. To a degree, I get that. But a championship winning season wouldn’t be the most stringent scale to measure against, would it? Oooh look, we went to games when we were winning every week. Brilliant. What about the people who were going when we were getting trounced every week? Is that not a more robust display of loyalty? I’d suggest it is. But then what do you do? 

 

Loyalty isn’t one season. It’s something displayed over time, in varying ways and through a multitude of circumstances. 

 

If if you bring longevity into it; that punishes the younger fans. I started going away in 1986. It wouldn’t be fair to give me priority over someone born in 1994 or for me to be a lower priority than someone who went to Man U in 1967 or whatever. 

 

What about exiled fans? I know one poster for instance would often secure tickets for games in the North West as that’s where he is based. He is now, at best, in a lottery for those tickets. That doesn’t seem fair. He’s loyally attended these games year after year and is now in a scrum. His loyalty hasn’t been rewarded. 

 

It’s impossible. However you approach it, somebody will be disadvantaged. I’ve urged people from the beginning to try and see it from beyond their own extremely narrow viewpoint, but it is difficult. The club have made a bit of a fist of it. They chose to commercialise it. They (rightly) protected the away season ticket holders. They then drew a line in the sand that automatically divided the fans. Ten games or more and you’re in. Nine games or less and you’re out. Ten games you’re the equal of somebody who did twenty-three, nine games you’re the equal of somebody that did none. Ouch. But, I suspect that decision was made purely on numbers. The fact that ten+ and the ASTH came to about 750 meant that only 25% of tickets were ring-fenced. That left 75% up for grabs and maintained the attractiveness of the £50 package for those willing to pay it. A sensible business decision and sod all to do with loyalty. 

 

Unfortunately, that’s how fans have interpreted it and it’s understandable. But talking and arguing about loyalty when you’re only considering a 12 month period is daft. And we do need to facilitate new, younger fans getting access to games. This system is far from perfect and the lack of family provision and inhibitive costs are only two of many criticisms but there really isn’t a system out there that is a good and fair fit for everyone. 

 

 

Nothing to disagree with there.

Loyalty will always be a divisive and tough metric to measure. However, I do believe you have to try, otherwise you just end up with a free for all.

I personally maintain the opinion that the system we had last season was quite a lot fairer than the new ****show. Also I'd argue the club really didn't have to commercialise it- they've made an extra few hundred grand in a season where our income is going to be over £100m, so the fundemental motivation for the system is very much open for criticism.

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nothing to disagree with there.

Loyalty will always be a divisive and tough metric to measure. However, I do believe you have to try, otherwise you just end up with a free for all.

I personally maintain the opinion that the system we had last season was quite a lot fairer than the new ****show. Also I'd argue the club really didn't have to commercialise it- they've made an extra few hundred grand in a season where our income is going to be over £100m, so the fundemental motivation for the system is very much open for criticism.

Regarding the commercialisation, I think you could consider it quite a shrewd move (or cynical depending on your viewpoint). By introducing it in a season where demand was always going to be high, they weee guaranteed a strong uptake. 

As you say, on the face of it a few hundred grand doesn’t seem all that much. I’m sure there are lots of budgetary arguments that could be made about what it facilitates in terms of equipment or wages or whatever but.. by introducing it now when we’re in the top flight and relatively optimistic of survival, if we were to stay up for a while this commercial practice would be normalised. Then, should we be relegated, when a few hundred grand might be seen to make a difference, it’s already there and in practice and almost an “automatic” expense to fans. 

Try and introduce it when we’ve just been relegated and we NEED the extra money, well, I can imagine the uproar would have been exponential compared to that we’ve witnessed. 

I mean, I’m not saying that WAS the thinking but it sort of makes sense to me if I think of it in that way. 

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1 hour ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

I have for many years followed Norwich away very regularly through the good and the bad, I am one of the 750 in the so called elite group I do every year 85 percent plus of away games

for someone to pay 50 quid and have the same priority as me would be wrong

i am in the group because of my support over at least 20 years 

Not true though, is it? You are in the group as it stands purely because you did 10 games in 2018/19 (and paid your £50 this year)...it's literally nothing to do with any of the previous 19 years - you will have people that qualified for it off the back of a promotion season...some of those may well have never been to an away game before last season and now find themselves alongside you in this group.

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15 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Regarding the commercialisation, I think you could consider it quite a shrewd move (or cynical depending on your viewpoint). By introducing it in a season where demand was always going to be high, they weee guaranteed a strong uptake. 

As you say, on the face of it a few hundred grand doesn’t seem all that much. I’m sure there are lots of budgetary arguments that could be made about what it facilitates in terms of equipment or wages or whatever but.. by introducing it now when we’re in the top flight and relatively optimistic of survival, if we were to stay up for a while this commercial practice would be normalised. Then, should we be relegated, when a few hundred grand might be seen to make a difference, it’s already there and in practice and almost an “automatic” expense to fans. 

Try and introduce it when we’ve just been relegated and we NEED the extra money, well, I can imagine the uproar would have been exponential compared to that we’ve witnessed. 

I mean, I’m not saying that WAS the thinking but it sort of makes sense to me if I think of it in that way. 

You're probably more forgiving than me- I'd certainly view it as cynical over shrewd. It sticks in the craw a bit when we're constantly told how important the fans are and how we should be treated better, only to be milked for extra cash at the first opportunity. Then there is of course the issues with the roll out of the scheme which add to my belief that this was a cynical move they knew would be unpopular.

I do also believe that any financial benefit could prove to be short term. If this system is kept next season as is I don't think I'm the only person who'd be highly unlikely to renew. Similarly if we go down all these fair-weather types who bought one for a day trip to Anfield or Old Trafford won't be likely to hand over another £50 for trips to Stoke and Luton.

Edited by king canary
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9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Amazing!

Incredible what happens when people don't describe fellow fans as 'elite, selfish and greedy' isn't it.

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2 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

God, that’s long. Sorry.

 

to summarise:

 

Loyalty isn’t a simple thing to measure. It’s definitely not defined over any 12 month period. 

The old system didn’t work for some

the new system doesn’t work for some 

I don’t think there is a system that works for all

I think the club have made purely business/commercial decisions based on numbers from a report and haven’t factored in the “human” element/response. 

Your loyalty observation is spot on.

However, the fundamental issue  is that NCFC, along with the majority of Clubs, assess this on an annual basis, so it doesn’t matter whether you’ve done just a single season, or twenty seasons, like Jobsworth - if you did 10+ games, you’re a priority member the following season. 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Incredible what happens when people don't describe fellow fans as 'elite, selfish and greedy' isn't it.

You missed out on "less loyal".

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

You missed out on "less loyal".

Look, I'm just going to suggest for the sake of this forum lets just stop replying to each other yeah? We clearly don't agree on this, I'm very tired of having my words twisted out of all context and recognition and this only seems to happen in discussions with you.

Normally I'd just block you for ease but I enjoy being a part of Rays Funds so I'm not going to do that. But I really can't be arsed with this anymore.

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2 minutes ago, GMF said:

Your loyalty observation is spot on.

However, the fundamental issue  is that NCFC, along with the majority of Clubs, assess this on an annual basis, so it doesn’t matter whether you’ve done just a single season, or twenty seasons, like Jobsworth - if you did 10+ games, you’re a priority member the following season. 

Yes and as you see it's a majority view. Seen as totally fair. Except for having to pay £50.

When I was an away season ticket holder 10 years ago I had to pay £25 for the privelege so £50 for the elite/more loyal is probably fair enough. It's the £50 that's charged to fans who enter thet ticket lottery is unfair. In fact the whole ticket lottery is unfair.

But it will never be fair with the prevalent view that fans who did 10 last year are entitled to 20 before new fans can get a even a sniff.

 

 

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23 hours ago, king canary said:

These are people who travelled to a decent number of away games last season so I'd expect they'll be going to a fair few this season. Yes, if they are buying and then selling them on that is ****ty behaviour but it is ****ty behaviour caused by this system. If it turns out to be happening regularly then it is just another thing the club need to review.

The question is are the words behind the asterisks worse than the greedy and selfish that I used. 

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14 minutes ago, king canary said:

Look, I'm just going to suggest for the sake of this forum lets just stop replying to each other yeah? We clearly don't agree on this, I'm very tired of having my words twisted out of all context and recognition and this only seems to happen in discussions with you.

Normally I'd just block you for ease but I enjoy being a part of Rays Funds so I'm not going to do that. But I really can't be arsed with this anymore.

Simple solution is to block me and get someone to post Rays Funds for you or even send it to me pm or email canaryeddie@aol.com 👍

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3 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Regarding the commercialisation, I think you could consider it quite a shrewd move (or cynical depending on your viewpoint). By introducing it in a season where demand was always going to be high, they weee guaranteed a strong uptake. 

As you say, on the face of it a few hundred grand doesn’t seem all that much. I’m sure there are lots of budgetary arguments that could be made about what it facilitates in terms of equipment or wages or whatever but.. by introducing it now when we’re in the top flight and relatively optimistic of survival, if we were to stay up for a while this commercial practice would be normalised. Then, should we be relegated, when a few hundred grand might be seen to make a difference, it’s already there and in practice and almost an “automatic” expense to fans. 

Try and introduce it when we’ve just been relegated and we NEED the extra money, well, I can imagine the uproar would have been exponential compared to that we’ve witnessed. 

I mean, I’m not saying that WAS the thinking but it sort of makes sense to me if I think of it in that way. 

Interestingly Tom Smith told me that the club were going to introduce these new schemes this season whether or not we were promoted. Had we missed out on promotion I doubt they'd have got away with the same membership fees.

Edited by ......and Smith must score.
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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Simple solution is to block me and get someone to post Rays Funds for you or even send it to me pm or email canaryeddie@aol.com 👍

Amazing!

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1 hour ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

Interestingly Tom Smith told me that the club were going to introduce these new schemes this season whether or not we were promoted. Had we missed out on promotion I doubt they'd have got away with the same membership fees.

Thing is, it might not have created such an issue as I don't think they'd have sold 7,000 £50 memberships at the Championship level.

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5 hours ago, Jobsworth Canary said:

I have for many years followed Norwich away very regularly through the good and the bad, I am one of the 750 in the so called elite group I do every year 85 percent plus of away games

for someone to pay 50 quid and have the same priority as me would be wrong

i am in the group because of my support over at least 20 years 

Evening all, I 100% agree with you Jobbo.  Must admit I'm a bit disappointed that you missed 15 % though. 15 % plastic then.  😋.There must be a computer program that can sort all this shoite out. More games attended, higher preference, notification by the club ,by text , email, whatever they prefer, to members once their band of seniority is opened. This can run from the guy who attended all away games last season down to the guy who attended zilch, maybe as it's computerised have tickets offered in order of exact points/ matches. No bands, just linear. No way should paying more Dosh get you up any pecking order. ID check on purchase and random ID check at turnstile.  Allow registered resale at face value, no points awarded to seller,all easy to do online. FFS!! This is not that difficult to sort. I get people's grievances about the current system , the old one seemed fairer, but a more up to date, digitally administered system could improve things a lot. Roight, said my bit. 

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But, of course, that system isn’t fair and doesn’t reward loyalty either. 

 

For instance, somebody might have circumstances where they have a lifestyle that enables them to attend every game but only choose to attend 6. Somebody else might be an exile and only able to attend 5 games and attend them all. The second chap has shown 100% “loyalty” in comparison to the better fan (as defined by the system) only attending at a little more than 25%. 

 

If if you are the guy that attended 6 games then this system seems fairest. If you’re the guy that attended 5 you’d probably feel aggrieved that the other guy was ahead of you. 

 

The points system didn’t work because people would attend using other people’s customer numbers when x points were required. The fans attending didn’t see their points increasing, the same fans that had the points retained and grew them without attending. That’s before the ST bonus. 

 

It really isn’t THAT simple to sort it out. 

 

Fairest way would probably be a free for all. 🤷‍♂️

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