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The day the spectacles fell off

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4 minutes ago, Alfie54 said:

Reality is that we looked very poor against an ordinary side 

Are they ordinary? In their eighth consecutive season in the Prem, lowest they’ve finished in that time is 13th. If they’re only “ordinary” then we’ll be losing to (and finishing below) a lot of ordinary sides this year.

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30 minutes ago, Orly said:

We had 3 points from the first 4 games last season in the championship.

If we follow the same progress as last season, I look forward to being crowned Premier League Champions next year.

Exactly. The team is on a learning curve and they will improve.

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3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

It's not a level playing field as West Ham can spend more than us on players as they were given a stadium for free by Boris Johnson. 😀

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-31 at 19.11.07.png

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I'm quite happy the spectacles are off, in fact it's probably a necessity for our Premier League survival. A swift kick up the jacksy early on never hurt anyone, as long as we learn from it. Onwards and upwards.

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25 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

It's not a level playing field as West Ham can spend more than us on players as they were given a stadium for free by Boris Johnson. 😀

 

Thats because they all voted to leave the EU.

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In isolation today was quite concerning. Very little spark or creativity. The usual calm and comfortable approach play, but very little cutting edge.

I fear that if we continue with the current system, players will learn to exploit us in the gaps that Aarons and Lewis leave behind when we turn over possession upfield.

And Buendia needs a kick up the backside; he lost a ton of possession today and exhibited poor body language and a lack of desire to track back on several occasions.

All part and parcel of the learning process, but today showed us what we can expect this season when our Plan A isn't effective.

Whether Farke concentrates on tweaking and strengthening Plan A, or working on Plans B and C, he'll know that improvements are required.

It took him a year to teach the players his style of football, but he and the players don't have the luxury of a year to learn the Premier League. Even if we do go down, though, we must have faith in this project. OTBC.

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6 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

In isolation today was quite concerning. Very little spark or creativity. The usual calm and comfortable approach play, but very little cutting edge.

I fear that if we continue with the current system, players will learn to exploit us in the gaps that Aarons and Lewis leave behind when we turn over possession upfield.

And Buendia needs a kick up the backside; he lost a ton of possession today and exhibited poor body language and a lack of desire to track back on several occasions.

All part and parcel of the learning process, but today showed us what we can expect this season when our Plan A isn't effective.

Whether Farke concentrates on tweaking and strengthening Plan A, or working on Plans B and C, he'll know that improvements are required.

It took him a year to teach the players his style of football, but he and the players don't have the luxury of a year to learn the Premier League. Even if we do go down, though, we must have faith in this project. OTBC.

It looked as though we struggled with how physical WH were today, as they say a good big un is better than a good little un. You dont get that combination throughout Championship sides and we are going to have to learn to cope with it, and adjust our tactical play as teams will (or have) work us out. A massive challenge, but we all knew that didnt we. 

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3 hours ago, Aggy said:

Are they ordinary? In their eighth consecutive season in the Prem, lowest they’ve finished in that time is 13th. If they’re only “ordinary” then we’ll be losing to (and finishing below) a lot of ordinary sides this year.

Yes they are ordinary at this level. If we want to stay up we'll need to take points of mid-table teams like West Ham.

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2 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

In isolation today was quite concerning. Very little spark or creativity. The usual calm and comfortable approach play, but very little cutting edge.

I fear that if we continue with the current system, players will learn to exploit us in the gaps that Aarons and Lewis leave behind when we turn over possession upfield.

And Buendia needs a kick up the backside; he lost a ton of possession today and exhibited poor body language and a lack of desire to track back on several occasions.

All part and parcel of the learning process, but today showed us what we can expect this season when our Plan A isn't effective.

Whether Farke concentrates on tweaking and strengthening Plan A, or working on Plans B and C, he'll know that improvements are required.

It took him a year to teach the players his style of football, but he and the players don't have the luxury of a year to learn the Premier League. Even if we do go down, though, we must have faith in this project. OTBC.

I think we're seeing expected growing pains from some of our star younger players- Buendia and Aarons have struggled to adapt while Lewis, Godfrey and Catwell have made the step up with ease.

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It is interesting the posters that have already started turning so quickly, and not unexpected at all to be honest. 

I think Farke and the lads deserve a lot more respect and loyalty than this, I’ve seen that our boys can certainly give a game to way better sides than a cynical yet savvy West Ham. Watching the game, I just felt we were having an off day, which does happen to all teams occasionally but for some reason this still needs pointing out. I think there’s a lot of overreaction on here and the usual suspects are revelling in at as was so predictable to many of us.

My concern isn’t the performance, our boys can play much better than that for people with short memories. It’s the injury crisis at the back. With any luck we’ve just got to the international break in time, and Zimbo and Hanley will be back in contention. On a real positive note, I thought Amadou looked like he has something about him, and when up to speed could make a real difference protecting the back 4 - he made some good interceptions today, showed a bit of muscle and I think will be just what we need. I’m quite excited for what he can potentially bring to our side. So that’s my positive from a game that only finished 2-0 away.

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It looks to me that we’re being outmuscled by physically bigger sides. Leitner, Trybull, Buendia and Cantwell are not a physically imposing midfield. I hope that Amadou will work in that holding role at some point, which might add a bit of phyicality alongside our undoubted technical ability.

Edited by Grando
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5 minutes ago, Grando said:

It looks to me that we’re being outmuscled by physically bigger sides. Leitner, Trybull, Buendia and Cantwell are not a physically imposing midfield. I hope that Amadou will work in that holding role at some point, which might add a bit of phyicality alongside our undoubted technical ability.

Yep, they’ve arguably got the most ‘physical’ midfield we’ve faced so far, but to be fair, West Ham have never had a reputation for being thugs...

Apart from the second goal scorer, that Mark Noble has always had a bit of an edge about him that I’ve never liked. But you’re right, in these kind of games we need a bit more physicality ourselves. I think Amadou, in front of a fit back four could really make a difference to us. His first game, out of position, his potential could be massive for us this season so I’m very optimistic on that front. Still think we just had a bit of an off day today, it wasn’t all down to West Ham and their tactics, we can, and will, play better. 

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I'd actually argue that our main issue today was a lack of discipline. We saw our passing game in fits and starts, but too often it would break down with Todd, Buendia, and Stiepermann often wandering down blind alleys full of West Ham midfielders, losing the ball. Leitner, Trybull and the fullbacks spent a lot of time bombing forwards at pace, getting stranded when attacks broke down. Pukki ended up mainly doing shuttle runs across the pitch closing down defenders, and had less than 10 touches in the first half.

This will happen with a younger side, so it isn't quite time for the angry mob for me, but it was no doubt a poor performance. Bright sides, I thought Lewis looked good, Krul seems to have stepped up now he has true competition in Fahrmann, Godfrey continues to look like he's been at this level for ages, and Drmic gave us a different angle when he came on.

 

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On 31/08/2019 at 18:37, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely. A few posters who said after promotion they entirely understood  this was a long-term plan, in which we would not spend money we didn’t have, have got very short memories.

Not only are we up against better players, we are facing very smart managers and head coaches. 

Lastly, the complaint that our summer signings have not been obvious upgrades ignores the difficulty of a yo-yo club, which is at best how overseas players will regard is, attracting real upgrades. The French player Claude-Maurice was an example. I don’t blame him for turning us down, given how uncertain a future he would have been signing into. No accident that Amadou, who may well be an upgrade, is only on a season-long loan.

 

 

It transpires he has now gone to newly-billionaire-funded Nice, which supports that specific point, and the general one.

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What all of the above points come to is a lack of investment 

whilst we may get away with this self funded nonsense in the championship it can’t possibly work in the premier league 

now whilst we are in the premier league is it vital that we send a high powered delegation to China for investment purposes 

it is in the clubs interest to do this but not the SS so it ain’t going to happen unfortunately 

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On 31/08/2019 at 17:37, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely. A few posters who said after promotion they entirely understood  this was a long-term plan, in which we would not spend money we didn’t have, have got very short memories.

Not only are we up against better players, we are facing very smart managers and head coaches. 

 

 

It's always this way. if you'd have offered Norwich fans (not necessarily everyone in this thread) this situation 12 months ago everyone would have bitten your hand off. Now we are here expectations rise again. They always do. But football doesn't work that way and never will. West Ham are not the West Ham of 10 years ago and spending 45M on one player just shows what you are up against. These are sides who on our day we can get a result against but can hardly tear into our own players on days like Saturday when we are outplayed and come away with nothing. The target this season may well be to finish as high as we can but success will be 17th and from what I've seen we're more than capable of that.

I imagine a lot on this thread have been forced to wait an awful long time to post replies such as these. Unfortunately given the league we are playing in (a league where the best team of the last 30 years - United, finished as close to relegation as they did to winning the league in terms of points last season) those types were always going to get that opportunity this season

But if this is how rival fans and those with second accounts are forced to get enjoyment then I'm all for it, rather this than anything else.

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On 31/08/2019 at 17:37, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely. A few posters who said after promotion they entirely understood  this was a long-term plan, in which we would not spend money we didn’t have, have got very short memories.

Not only are we up against better players, we are facing very smart managers and head coaches. 

Lastly, the complaint that our summer signings have not been obvious upgrades ignores the difficulty of a yo-yo club, which is at best how overseas players will regard is, attracting real upgrades. The French player Claude-Maurice was an example. I don’t blame him for turning us down, given how uncertain a future he would have been signing into. No accident that Amadou, who may well be an upgrade, is only on a season-long loan.

 

 

There is not spending money we don't have and then there is just not spending any money.

Sheffield United have managed to upgrade the first XI based on early performances- Robinson and McBurnie have added to the team for example. So it isn't impossible to do it even a yo-yo club.

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On 31/08/2019 at 19:01, Aggy said:

Are they ordinary? In their eighth consecutive season in the Prem, lowest they’ve finished in that time is 13th. If they’re only “ordinary” then we’ll be losing to (and finishing below) a lot of ordinary sides this year.

Exactly - the guy next to me was saying they were 'rubbish' - sorry to disgree but they were a well organised side who are fairly well established in the Prem.  After our initial burst at the start, I didn't think they had too many problems to deal with.  Shame about Drmic effort near the end not going in but,  on the day, a fair result against a half decent side.

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43 minutes ago, king canary said:

There is not spending money we don't have and then there is just not spending any money.

Sheffield United have managed to upgrade the first XI based on early performances- Robinson and McBurnie have added to the team for example. So it isn't impossible to do it even a yo-yo club.

No idea about  Sheffield United's finances (which may be complicated by the court battle over ownership) so I don't know whether they are spending money they have or money they don't have.

My impression, given that they have come up two divisions, is that their squad needed more of an upgrade and a bulking-up than ours. I know about the result, but I doubt Sheffield United could even now put out a second-string eleven as good - on paper -as that we fielded against Crawley Town.

We have potentially upgraded. Drmic, if he can stay fit, is plainly better than Srbeny or Idah. Amadou may well be better than Trybull, plus being able to play in central defence. And if Krul's performances slip we have a class replacement in Fahrmann.

You are getting close to arguing that rather than two loans and a free transfer (the Webber way of picking up bargains) we should have splashed out millions even if the players were no better. Plus, it seems we were prepared to smash our transfer record for Claude-Maurice.

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4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No idea about  Sheffield United's finances (which may be complicated by the court battle over ownership) so I don't know whether they are spending money they have or money they don't have.

My impression, given that they have come up two divisions, is that their squad needed more of an upgrade and a bulking-up than ours. I know about the result, but I doubt Sheffield United could even now put out a second-string eleven as good - on paper -as that we fielded against Crawley Town.

We have potentially upgraded. Drmic, if he can stay fit, is plainly better than Srbeny or Idah. Amadou may well be better than Trybull, plus being able to play in central defence. And if Krul's performances slip we have a class replacement in Fahrmann.

You are getting close to arguing that rather than two loans and a free transfer (the Webber way of picking up bargains) we should have splashed out millions even if the players were no better. Plus, it seems we were prepared to smash our transfer record for Claude-Maurice.

I'm not getting close to arguing that- I have no problems with loans and freebies. However, the early suggestion from our selections is those loans and freebies are backups not starters, although I expect that to change with Amadou.

Fees don't make players better but they widen the available pool. I wasn't expecting us to do a Villa but I was expecting us to make a couple of £10-15m transfer fees and I don't think that is 'money we don't have.'

Of course, if come the end of the season Amadou has established himself, Farhmann takes over from Krul and Drmic scores vital goals from the bench to keep us up then great. Right now that feels unlikely though.

 

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12 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not getting close to arguing that- I have no problems with loans and freebies. However, the early suggestion from our selections is those loans and freebies are backups not starters, although I expect that to change with Amadou.

Fees don't make players better but they widen the available pool. I wasn't expecting us to do a Villa but I was expecting us to make a couple of £10-15m transfer fees and I don't think that is 'money we don't have.'

Of course, if come the end of the season Amadou has established himself, Farhmann takes over from Krul and Drmic scores vital goals from the bench to keep us up then great. Right now that feels unlikely though.

 

Seems dangerously like you are judging our new signings (and our chances this season) solely on their transfer value, and the 4 opening games of the season. Considering that we are currently in possession of the best free transfer that there has probably been in recent times, that seems quite a negative outlook. Especially given that, in my opinion, only one of those 4 games would be anywhere near to being considered an expected win, and we won it emphatically.

Also considering we had a dismal start last season, I am personally not going to draw any sort of conclusion with regards to quality of transfers until we have had a much longer run of games. Furthermore, knowing Farke's track record with regards to squad rotation (or lack of it), and I am unsure as to how you've reached the conclusion that the loans/freebies are backups at such an early stage.

Important to remember that a squad member's value is not solely on the pitch either - who is to say that Fahrmann's presence isn't a key factor in Krul's excellent form so far? I feel it's important to maintain a sense of perspective - it is VERY early days in the season, we are part of the way through an extremely tough start (e.g. compare and contrast ours to Watford's for example), and one of our key strengths last season was the ability for our very young squad to adapt and improve rapidly over the course of the year. Difficult to draw/justify any sort of judgement at this stage I would have thought.

Edited by Ian
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The league is fairly inconsistent at the moment. Just look at the amount of points dropped already by everyone except Liverpool.

I am guessing that the Crawley defeat is the reason for the depression at the moment. Yes that was poor. And I didn't see Saturday's game so can't comment but understand there were a few too many performing poorly. But our style is one that can break down easily unfortunately is a cog or two is missing.

Let us hope the break does us the power of good and doesn't for others.

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13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The league is fairly inconsistent at the moment. Just look at the amount of points dropped already by everyone except Liverpool.

I am guessing that the Crawley defeat is the reason for the depression at the moment. Yes that was poor. And I didn't see Saturday's game so can't comment but understand there were a few too many performing poorly. But our style is one that can break down easily unfortunately is a cog or two is missing.

Let us hope the break does us the power of good and doesn't for others.

I agree with this and I don't think the OP's post was completely wrong... The Crawley defeat hit us hard and the lads didn't put it right on saturday... We will have to hope for the best against Citeh (good performance) and our CB's injuries are not as bad as first feared.  I still think there are opportunities now for other players to get a chance! Some of the midfielders did not perform on saturday (Buendia,...) ...I feel we have got some options: Vrancic , Roberts (not against Citeh of course),... who could make a difference.

I agree that some of them didn't show anything against Crawley...but getting a chance in the PL might be just what they need. I am a big Mario fan and I think he's a game changer...

Edited by ROBFLECK

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30 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not getting close to arguing that- I have no problems with loans and freebies. However, the early suggestion from our selections is those loans and freebies are backups not starters, although I expect that to change with Amadou.

Fees don't make players better but they widen the available pool. I wasn't expecting us to do a Villa but I was expecting us to make a couple of £10-15m transfer fees and I don't think that is 'money we don't have.'

Of course, if come the end of the season Amadou has established himself, Farhmann takes over from Krul and Drmic scores vital goals from the bench to keep us up then great. Right now that feels unlikely though.

 

I am not alone in thinking you are getting very close to arguing that. We have played Liverpool, Chelsea, West Ham and Newcastle United. Sheffield United have played Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Leicester City and Chelsea. You don't think it likely, given their early fixtures, that some of their new signings are going to look better than some of ours, simply because they have been playing lower-ranked teams?

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1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am not alone in thinking you are getting very close to arguing that. We have played Liverpool, Chelsea, West Ham and Newcastle United. Sheffield United have played Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Leicester City and Chelsea. You don't think it likely, given their early fixtures, that some of their new signings are going to look better than some of ours, simply because they have been playing lower-ranked teams?

It isn't about the fact they've looked better- it is the fact that Wilder has looked at Robinson and McBurnie as improvements on what he already had. Clearly Farke doesn't feel the same way about most our summer signings right now or they'd be starting.

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

It isn't about the fact they've looked better- it is the fact that Wilder has looked at Robinson and McBurnie as improvements on what he already had. Clearly Farke doesn't feel the same way about most our summer signings right now or they'd be starting.

Indeed. I understand that new signings need to be integrated and the players who won promotion deserve a chance, but it appears right now that we haven't improved our first eleven- although I expect Amadou will replace Trybull very soon.

Has a newly-promoted team ever played the first four games of a Premier League season without handing a start to a new signing?

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It may have been said on here... But if there's one thing we've come to expect with this Norwich side under Farke is that we often have a shaky start, get to the international break, work with the players a bit more and then come back all guns blazing and string some decent results together.

The fact quite a few players are away on international duty may not help us as much this season but I trust in the project and for Farke et al to turn things around.

Having said that, I think the performance against West Ham is the worst I've seen from us for a long time. Teams have off days. Some have the requisite quality and squad depth to deal with it. We don't quite have that luxury at this level but I'm still backing us to stay up.

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