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John Boubepo

The Lost Generation

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An earlier post got me thinking - we are all aware of Worthy''s tactical knowledge, his ability to learn quickly from costly mistakes, his preferences in the transfer market, his character building comments about players in the press,his keenness to regularly give players the opportunity to play out of position [often on the right wing], rotating our most skillfull players between the reserves and the subs bench and of course his man management of the youngsters - and this is the point - has any youngster truly been given a chance and actually made it under Worthy? cos if they have I cant remember!

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The simple answer is no because he has proved it time after time that even if the youngsters perform well they may not even make the bench next game.  Henderson has had a few chances but no continued run, Shackell nearly made it but along came Davenport.  The only youngsters who do get an extended run are players like Bentley and Marney, because Worthy clearly believes that they must be better than his own youngsters because they come from a Premiership club.  There are numerous managers out there who believe if the youngsters are good enough then they are old enough, Worthy sadly doesn''t fall into that category.

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When you consider how many youngsters Ipswich have brought through during the same time frame or any other club for that matter, it does raise a few questions, especially when you take into account our state of the art academy and facilities which in Worthy''s words "are second to none"

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I think in this situation Worthy is screwed whatever he does, if he plays youngsters and it goes horribly you would be saying "If only we had signed someone like Etuhu". 

People will complain that he doesn''t use the young players but could the reason be that they are not good enough yet?  Ok these youngsters may have the potential to better than some of our current players but are you prepared to wait a few years to find out.  Worthington is expected to get us promoted this year, if you were in his situation would you honestly rely on a group of untested youngsters?  Or would you try and buy experienced players at this level?  Before any says he should have bought more quality, look at the amount of money he was given to buy players with, he hardly had a massive budget.  With the exception of Sidwell and Convey, the Reading team that is running away with this league is made up of Championship journeymen.  They don''t have quality all over the pitch.  All the teams in this league are filled with so called "cloggers".  It''s just so hard to attract the likes of Henry and Beckham to to come play in the Fizzy league these days.

I would be interested to hear who/if any of the youth players Charlies Dad or Nobby G (or someone who see them play a lot) think are good enough for the starting 11 right now. 

 

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[quote user="Saint Canary"]

I think in this situation Worthy is screwed whatever he does, if he plays youngsters and it goes horribly you would be saying "If only we had signed someone like Etuhu". 

People will complain that he doesn''t use the young players but could the reason be that they are not good enough yet?  Ok these youngsters may have the potential to better than some of our current players but are you prepared to wait a few years to find out.  Worthington is expected to get us promoted this year, if you were in his situation would you honestly rely on a group of untested youngsters?  Or would you try and buy experienced players at this level?  Before any says he should have bought more quality, look at the amount of money he was given to buy players with, he hardly had a massive budget.  With the exception of Sidwell and Convey, the Reading team that is running away with this league is made up of Championship journeymen.  They don''t have quality all over the pitch.  All the teams in this league are filled with so called "cloggers".  It''s just so hard to attract the likes of Henry and Beckham to to come play in the Fizzy league these days.

I would be interested to hear who/if any of the youth players Charlies Dad or Nobby G (or someone who see them play a lot) think are good enough for the starting 11 right now. 

 

[/quote]

Well we are not talking about henry or bergkamp we are talking about Koumas, Halford, Danns, Idiakiz, Ifill, Little, Blake, Miller, Webber etc etc  Players we can or could have gotten.  Worthy has just made very very poor choices.

As for readings team, what about Glen Little, dave Kitson, Ibrahima Sonko, Ivar Ingimarsson, John Oster etc etc - all proven players at this level, and not at all clogger style players - there is a couple of wide men in there - not strikers playing out wide.

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Paul, I too would like to have seen some of the players mentioned here at Carrow Road but it''s just not as simple as Worthy could have bought them.  What if the board would not let him sign them, or pay for the transfer / wages.  How much money did Worthington actually spend on the players he brought  in the summer?  Hughes £350K (the rest is dependant on appearances and promotion), Colin £350, Jarrett £0, Thorne £0, Marney £0, Louis-Jean £0.  The combined value of those fees would not have been enough to buy Koumas, Idiakez, Ifill or Blake. 

He has just bought Etuhu (who most of us wanted in the Premier League!) for £450k so in total he spent (in transfer fees) just over £1m pound, which could just about buy Koumas (maybe) but we would have been short by 5 players in the squad.  Tell me, if you were Worthy with £1m to spend, would you really buy just one player?  Or could you suggest 6 players you would have bought for that £1m? The board in my opinion have been to prudent but that is not Worthy''s fault. 

As for the Reading players you mentioned, you have responded to my point about Reading having Championship journeymen by listing championship journeymen like John Oster, Ivar Ingimarsson and Glenn Little.

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"Well we are not talking about henry or bergkamp we are talking about Koumas, Halford, Danns, Idiakiz, Ifill, Little, Blake, Miller, Webber etc etc  Players we can or could have gotten.  Worthy has just made very very poor choices."

And how exactly do we know that Worthy didn''t try to get any of these players?  It is ultimately possible we made approaches for all of them but were turned down - either by club or player.  Don''t underestimate how big a deal moving to Norwich is for some players, particularly those who never really leave an area.

Also, I think if we had tried to sign Blake, Little, Webber etc etc, everyone would have accused Worthy of simply signing journeymen Championship players.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing........!

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To be honest we dont get to watch etuhu play before he came here.  And I think most would be fooled by his appearance if we only saw a couple of games. 

Glenn Little - Has always been a thorn in our and other Championship sides he is a quality right winger in this division - cost them, 100,000

John Oster - has also been a thorn in our side (not exactly glen little standard - cost them nothing

Ingamarsson is a decent player.

Koumas was available on season long loan.   Miller was available on season long loan. 

If the above is the case why was edworthy freed, svenny freed,  Jonson sold??  Francis was sold for a fair amount - probably where the etuhu and loans money came from.

To be honest, It would only have taken a single quality player along with the cloggers to have a dramatic improvement in the side - as paul mcveigh has proven.  Worthy just did not sign a single one, instead relying on Huckerby to get us promoted by himself.  When most were fit the performances missed that extra something to win games, when the injuries came results got worse.  Paul Mcveigh added that extra bit to spark decembers good run.

Pre season many said including me that a Hughes Safri central midfied will not get us promoted.  How worthy could not see this is beyond me.

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[quote user="Temp the Revelator"]

"Well we are not talking about henry or bergkamp we are talking about Koumas, Halford, Danns, Idiakiz, Ifill, Little, Blake, Miller, Webber etc etc  Players we can or could have gotten.  Worthy has just made very very poor choices."

And how exactly do we know that Worthy didn''t try to get any of these players?  It is ultimately possible we made approaches for all of them but were turned down - either by club or player.  Don''t underestimate how big a deal moving to Norwich is for some players, particularly those who never really leave an area.

Also, I think if we had tried to sign Blake, Little, Webber etc etc, everyone would have accused Worthy of simply signing journeymen Championship players.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing........!

[/quote]

All we needed was a single quality signing - we got none.  What more can I say.  And no offense buut most of these players moved before worthy even started looking...

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"All we needed was a single quality signing - we got none.  What more can I say.  And no offense buut most of these players moved before worthy even started looking..."

And how do you know Worthy hadn''t started looking?  Do you have priviliged information you would like to share with us all?  I just wish for more than five minutes at a time you would stop Worthy bashing at every opportunity - I enjoy reading your posts when you are putting forward reasoned arguments, but the majority of your posts simply attack Worthy, often for things completely out of his control and more often for things you are assuming.  If the things you are accusing him of turn out to be proven correct in the fullness of time, I will be the first to apologise to you, but your constant attempts to turn every discussion into an excuse to snipe at Worthy are becoming very tiring,

I believe we need a change at the club, things are obviously stale, but that change is unlikely to happen until the end of the season. So let''s just let it lie and get back to some reasoned discussions, eh?

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Silver Fox - Henderson is continually given opportunities, which he has yet to grasp, neither Worthington, nor a lot of fans have given up on him though.                 - Shackell has had injury problems this season and is only just coming back into contention.                 - Ryan Jarvis isn''t mentioned here, yet would have had several games this term if not for injury.                 - Rossi Jarvis, at only 17 already getting games.How many youth players do you expect to get through to the first team over 5 years? I think to get one a season is not a bad return - especially given that the best get snaffled by the likes of Man U & Chelsea.

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Paul - Glen Little has turned us down on at least one previous occasion, to go to Burnley!        - Oster, could have the same criticism aimed at him as other Worthy signings, simply not good enough as a future Prem player.        - Koumas, the Welsh international who chose to go to a team in Wales for the season, not the team a 5 hour drive from the principality!I agree Edworthy appears to have been a clanger, but Svensson wanted to go, as did Jonsson. The Francis money only came available a week before transfer deadline day. Presumably the comment about hughes/Safri in midfield is just a veiled attack on Hughes again, as Saf seems so universally adored (not like in his first few games - everyone was moaning about his performances and complainig he got booked too often and never scored enough!). Perhaps when Hughes has had a month or two injury free (hasn''t happened for us yet) he might get to forge a partnership worth supporting?

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Koumas was available on season long loan.   Miller was available on season long loan.

Miller & Koumas were available on loan but who is to say that the board would have paid their wages?  All your points are based upon assuming that Worthy doesn''t want a player rather than considering whether he even has the choice.

If the above is the case why was edworthy freed, svenny freed,  Jonson sold??  Francis was sold for a fair amount - probably where the etuhu and loans money came from.

Again I find myself defending Worthy and it pains me to do so but to make a point.....  Edworthy REFUSED a contract and then the offer was withdrawn, we didn''t free him.  Svensson wanted a longer contract and considering his age and injury history it was not wise to give him an extension.  He also had a release clause in contract allowing him to leave for £50k and he exercised it, we didn''t free him. 

Pre season many said including me that a Hughes Safri central midfied will not get us promoted.  How worthy could not see this is beyond me.

I will agree with that but I still think originally Hughes was brought in as a squad player only.  Remember that until a few days before the season started our first choice pairing would still have been Francis Safri.  I think it''s clear that the only money he has had to spend has been from player sales and again I think the boards "prudence" has cost us a bit this year.  I''m sure he would have love to have more quality and bigger but that''s not up to him.

 

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[quote user="Fat Barman"]Silver Fox - Henderson is continually given opportunities, which he has yet to grasp, neither Worthington, nor a lot of fans have given up on him though.
                 - Shackell has had injury problems this season and is only just coming back into contention.
                 - Ryan Jarvis isn''t mentioned here, yet would have had several games this term if not for injury.
                 - Rossi Jarvis, at only 17 already getting games.

How many youth players do you expect to get through to the first team over 5 years? I think to get one a season is not a bad return - especially given that the best get snaffled by the likes of Man U & Chelsea.
[/quote]

Henderson is continually given opportunities at right midfield.

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[quote user="Saint Canary"]

Koumas was available on season long loan.   Miller was available on season long loan.

Miller & Koumas were available on loan but who is to say that the board would have paid their wages?  All your points are based upon assuming that Worthy doesn''t want a player rather than considering whether he even has the choice.

If the above is the case why was edworthy freed, svenny freed,  Jonson sold??  Francis was sold for a fair amount - probably where the etuhu and loans money came from.

Again I find myself defending Worthy and it pains me to do so but to make a point.....  Edworthy REFUSED a contract and then the offer was withdrawn, we didn''t free him.  Svensson wanted a longer contract and considering his age and injury history it was not wise to give him an extension.  He also had a release clause in contract allowing him to leave for £50k and he exercised it, we didn''t free him. 

Pre season many said including me that a Hughes Safri central midfied will not get us promoted.  How worthy could not see this is beyond me.

I will agree with that but I still think originally Hughes was brought in as a squad player only.  Remember that until a few days before the season started our first choice pairing would still have been Francis Safri.  I think it''s clear that the only money he has had to spend has been from player sales and again I think the boards "prudence" has cost us a bit this year.  I''m sure he would have love to have more quality and bigger but that''s not up to him.

 

[/quote]

jonson didnt really want to go - svenny was offered 1 year and edworthy after initially choosing to think about a 2 year contract, when he came back worthy only offered him 1 year.

STILL - a club in that was in our position should have been able to do far better in the transfer market than it has done.  Worthys signings have been poor and i must agree show a complete lack of ambition. Palace pulled out 3 excellent signings:

Clinton MorrisonBirmingham£ 200000025-08-2005

Jobi McAnuffCardiffSigned31-05-2005
Jon MackenMan CitySigned02-06-2005

admittadly worthy did try and sign Morrison, But in the end with a decent midfield our strikeforce is easily strong enough as it is.

ALSO - worthy did not start looking for a couple of months - his comment "we do not want to pay 2 months wages for players while they are doing nothing"  or something along those lines, some other managers got in there straight away.

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I''d just like to add my voice to the [short] list of people annoyed that so many people assume Worthy never even considered signing players like Koumas and Ifil. How does anybody know with 100% certainty that he didn''t make enquiries? It''s never just a case of the manager deciding he wants a player and that player automatically signing for the club. A lot goes on behind the scenes. There are rumours, there are smokescreens, there are public statements and there''s gamesmanship. None of us know that the club never had any intention of approaching x, y, or z player and even if they actually didn''t it is pure speculation as to their reasons.

I agree that it''s disappointing that another Eadie or Bellamy hasn''t come through the system yet, but, as has been indicated before, Ryan Jarvis has been plagued with injury, Shackell has been given a chance (Davenport was quality, so somebody had to make way) but has been injured/ill when the next one arose. I''m sure he still has a role to play. Others have already pointed out on another recent thread that none of the other youngsters who have left the club in recent years have gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere.

I also agree with those who have observed that hindsight is a wonderful stick to beat the manager with. It''s easy to assume things would have worked much better doing things another way, and could you all put your hands on your hearts and swear you would not have moaned about Worthy relying on youngsters too much instead of bringing in experience had he given it a go and it not worked out?

I''m not saying I agree with all Worthy''s decisions and it is my opinion that he has made a number of mistakes, but most of these are with the benefit of hindsight. We fans base our opinions on what we see on the football pitch on matchdays and assumptions/speculation. The manager is the only one who has all the facts. He knows a player''s attitude, frame of mind, skills and attributes far more than any of us. The club pays him to make decisions based on that knowledge and nobody can ever prove that an outcome would have been more favourable with a different player[s] or different tactics; that is the realm of scientific experimentation that football cannot avail itself of. You''ve only got to look at the wide range of different player combinations/formations postulated by posters on this board prior to most matches to see that there is no unanimous ''right answer''. We''d all have done something different to what Worthy did in any given situation and we''d all have been bashed by a load of other fans when it didn''t work out as we''d assumed it would.

We fans always seem to see things in black and white. The team would have been more balanced with x playing right back, Deano would have scored more goals by now if x was in the team instead of y, we would have prevented the other team from scoring three goals had we played a different formation etc. There are hundreds of factors that influence a manager''s decision as to who plays and how they play and we base our own assumptions on a far smaller range of factors.

We could all run the country better than the Prime Minister, right? It''s dead simple for us because we aren''t privy to the wide range of information and influencing factors that he is and we aren''t aware of all the potential ramifications and knock-on effects. We only know what hindsight tells us and the mix of facts and speculation the newspapers feed us. Yet if any one of us was suddenly put in his place tomorrow the results would be disastrous.

Sorry to waffle. Feel free to totally ignore or disregard me...

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nope but as a sub, maybe.  Especially if McVeigh is having one of his many *TERRIBLE* games.  Although maybe Thorne would be more useful in them [;)].

I am not saying he should be played. But I am saying you cannot judge him on performances at right midfield. We have seen how well experienced proffesionals have done in this position. Chances have existed to give youngsters games especially from the subs bench...... 

The worst example this season being the Derby match in which we persisted with 1 up front the entire 2nd half untill the end of the match creating nothing whilst Ryan Jarvis was on the bench. The idea that is was not worth bringing him on because we were not getting much of the ball....  who knows what may happen, a long ball Jarvis picks it up and scores, fresh impetus, fresh legs, substitutions can change games as it was the derby match petered out with the team as well-beat as its manager.

Also with the 4-3-3 it offers opportunities for strikers if any of the others are having off days.

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Good to see the Reasonablists fighting back.

Just to echo two good points made earlier: with Norwich''s well-known policy of not commenting on player movements until they''re signed and sealed, we don''t know who has been targeted by Worthy; and living in Norfolk doesn''t suit some people (bizarre as we all find that idea), so Palace, for example, will find it easier to attract players.

However, I don''t think Worthy has given Henderson a fair crack. He''s been played as a stop-gap, whether on the right or in the centre, but he''s never been given a good run as a striker, in partnership with a quality player like Ashton or McVeigh. When I''ve seen him, Hendo''s been full of enthusiasm, making useful runs off the ball, and showing little of the lethargy apparent in a lot of the older players. He''s capable of putting good crosses in from the right, but he''s no winger. He''s young, naive and still lightweight, but I feel he''s not been integrated into the first team for us to judge him.

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I''d just like to add my voice to the [short] list of people annoyed that so many people assume Worthy never even considered signing players like Koumas and Ifil. How does anybody know with 100% certainty that he didn''t make enquiries?

I know 100% that Worthy never considered Koumas, because I asked Neil Doncaster at the Fat Cat in the summer while we were having an informal get together. He said "Koumas is not a player Nigel would consider having at the club". As for Ifill Worthy said in May/June sometime that nothing would happen until July. So while he was mincing about on his hols, Warnock stepped in and signed Ifill. So either, the board wouldn''t pay an extra months wages so they could get their guy, or Worthy was told not to sign someone until July.

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"STILL - a club that was in our position should have been able to do far better in the transfer market than it has done." 

I''m not debating that point Paul, only suggesting that it''s not entirely Worthington''s fault.  We should have been one of the most attractive clubs in this league for players to join, however the board kept the purse strings too tight this summer.  You cannot blame Worthy for not being able to pull a rabbit from the hat though.  As I said earlier 5 permanent signings for £1.1 is nothing and in all honesty what sort of quality do you think £250k per player buys?

In some cases though players are just not interested in moving to this part of the country.  Thomas from Stoke chose to move to Burnley over us in the summer.  Morrison chose Palace.  What more could Worthington do?  If he doesn''t have the funds or the players don''t want to sign there is little he can do about it.

ALSO - worthy did not start looking for a couple of months - his comment "we do not want to pay 2 months wages for players while they are doing nothing"  or something along those lines, some other managers got in there straight away.

Again that could have been and most likely is the boards decision not his.  Worthington does not control the clubs finances.  A lot of the criticism being levelled at Worthy at the moment seems to be based on assumptions that he didn''t do X or wasn''t interested in Y when no-one has any idea what''s been going on the behind the scenes and that is unfair.  I still feel he will not get us promoted and he should leave but I am not prepared to criticise him for things beyond his control.

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Can I make the debate simple re Worthington.

How many outfield players have passed through the ranks and established themselves in the first team since he has been in charge:  Nil

How many players, who he has purchased, have improved since they have been here: Nil (and I am afraid that includes Huckerby and Ashton)

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[quote user="vos"]

Can I make the debate simple re Worthington.

How many outfield players have passed through the ranks and established themselves in the first team since he has been in charge:  Nil

How many players, who he has purchased, have improved since they have been here: Nil (and I am afraid that includes Huckerby and Ashton)

[/quote]

perhaps francis - Ashton has not improved at all, the talent is there for all to see however.

Worthy did play mcveigh and nedergaard whom were not getting a game under hamilton.

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Robert Green? Don''t think he was number one choice when Worthy joined, and he gave him a chance when M******l left.

Shackell - given chance, then showed poor form before being dropped.

McVeigh - going nowhere under Hamilton, and Worthy got him playing well, and consistently well.

Henderson - has improved and seems to actually run forwards rather than backwards when an opposing player comes near him.

Kenton - worked well under Worthy before leaving for big money move to the Premiership where he quickly became not that good

Worthy has consistenly bought young players. Ashton (Dario Gradi said he''s improved since coming to Norwich), Doherty (improved under Worthy), Colin, Francis, Drury, Mackenzie. Not journeymen Championship players, but young players with ambition.

Also loan players - Crouch, Bentley, Davidson, Marney.

Also worth pointing out that the Jarvis brothers, Huckerby, Ashton, Green, Mulryne, Hughes and many others say they have signed to work with the manager, and like the way he works.

Oh.....but a few rubbish players as well, but let''s gloss over that for now. I''m not saying he''s perfect, but if you look at what Worthy has achieved in building a decent squad, he hasn''t done too bad.

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Imagine yourself as a 17/18/19 yr old footballer waiting/hoping for your a chance in the first team, all your life has been geared towards this vital moment, it''s make or break, 10+ years of hard work, backed up by a team of coaching staff, physios, a dieticians,  sports psychologists and private schooling etc, your friends your family all wait in anticipation for that big day because they know you have something special and have what it takes.
 At most clubs youngsters get a slot on the bench at least, and when the moment is right - last 20 mins when 2 or 3 nil up - on you come - wow! imagine that moment? your first team debut - the mood is good, confidence is high, the crowd are calling your name, you may only have an average game, but the feel good factor alone is immense and will set you up for a promising career, what a special day! happy dressing room, happy supporters, happy manager, happy 17/18/19 yr old!!

Or alternatively you could play reserve football week in week out and feel ignored while  very average/poor 30 yr olds are always favoured long before you, when injuries to first team players occur, on loan players of the calibre of Lisbie/Etuhu are brought in but you still wait your chance.

 When it comes - guess what? it''s because the manager is so desperate for players that not only is he making you play a full 90mins in an injury riddled team, you''re going to play completely out of position and are likely to get hammered not only by the opposition but the manager, the press and the fans who sing "what a load of rubbish" as you walk off [with your head down] - Thank you  Mr Worthington!

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I''ve nothing against youngin''s, but unless a young player is clearly good enough, there''s little point in playing them ahead of more experineced pro''s. surely fergie played a young becks often becuase he was  top class - not because he had a soft spot for him.  rooney played at 16, because he played and looked like a 20 year old. imo we''ve got no young players good enough to play consistently in an aspiring top 3 championship team. Eagle is the only youth player for me who is top drawer and will make it to the highest level. despite earlier promise, hendo and probably ryan jarvis are only good enough for a top league one side.  rossi and spillane have potential, but playing them unless we''re down to bare bones is crazy if we''re trying to push for the play-offs. if you want to see young players turning out, wait 2 years and if we''re not promoted by then, we''ll lose half the team and they''ll be plenty of opportunities to see the youf  in action then - as the ipswich fans do.

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"]I''ve nothing against youngin''s, but unless a young player is clearly good enough, there''s little point in playing them ahead of more experineced pro''s. surely fergie played a young becks often becuase he was  top class - not because he had a soft spot for him.  rooney played at 16, because he played and looked like a 20 year old.

imo we''ve got no young players good enough to play consistently in an aspiring top 3 championship team. Eagle is the only youth player for me who is top drawer and will make it to the highest level. despite earlier promise, hendo and probably ryan jarvis are only good enough for a top league one side.  rossi and spillane have potential, but playing them unless we''re down to bare bones is crazy if we''re trying to push for the play-offs.

if you want to see young players turning out, wait 2 years and if we''re not promoted by then, we''ll lose half the team and they''ll be plenty of opportunities to see the youf  in action then - as the ipswich fans do.





[/quote]

ryan jarvis - every time I have seen him play he has looked decent, he has scored a few good goals and has barely had a start.  Injuries have blighted his progress.  you can never be sure how good a young player will be without a decent runout. 

Young Crow after a poor start at Peterborough has gone on to score some goals. I still wish we had sent him on a season long loan if we could buit its done now.

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Imagine yourself as a 17/18/19 yr old footballer waiting/hoping for your a chance in the first team, all your life has been geared towards this vital moment, it''s make or break, 10+ years of hard work, backed up by a team of coaching staff, physios, a dieticians,  sports psychologists and private schooling etc, your friends your family all wait in anticipation for that big day because they know you have something special and have what it takes.

Could it not just be that recently the youngsters just have not been good enough?

At most clubs youngsters get a slot on the bench at least, and when the moment is right - last 20 mins when 2 or 3 nil up - on you come - wow! imagine that moment? your first team debut - the mood is good, confidence is high, the crowd are calling your name, you may only have an average game, but the feel good factor alone is immense and will set you up for a promising career, what a special day! happy dressing room, happy supporters, happy manager, happy 17/18/19 yr old!!

How many occasions this year has Worthy had the luxury of being able to do that?

Or alternatively you could play reserve football week in week out and feel ignored while very average/poor 30 yr olds are always favoured long before you, when injuries to first team players occur, on loan players of the calibre of Lisbie/Etuhu are brought in but you still wait your chance.

Most young players play a lot of reserve team football before they make the first team.  David Beckham played reserve team/loan football while the very poor Karel Poborsky played for Man U.  It did neither Utd or Beckham any harm, he did''nt gain a regular first team place until the age of 21.  Players like Owen, Giggs, Eadie etc breaking into the team at 17/18/19 are the exception not the rule.  It''s also worth noting that a lot of players who broke into first team football in their teens are riddled with injuries throughout their career.

When it comes - guess what? it''s because the manager is so desperate for players that not only is he making you play a full 90mins in an injury riddled team, you''re going to play completely out of position and are likely to get hammered not only by the opposition but the manager, the press and the fans who sing "what a load of rubbish" as you walk off [with your head down] - Thank you  Mr Worthington

Make your mind up!  He is either wrong for bringing in loan players to cover injuries or he is wrong for playing youngsters, which one is it?  Or should he bring in loan players to cover injuries, put the youngsters on the bench, hope we are 2-0 or 3-0 up with 20 minutes to go and then play them?

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"Make your mind up!  He is either wrong for bringing in loan players to cover injuries or he is wrong for playing youngsters, which one is it?  Or should he bring in loan players to cover injuries, put the youngsters on the bench, hope we are 2-0 or 3-0 up with 20 minutes to go and then play them?"

Come on Saint, when was the last time you saw Worthy give a sub a decent amount of time, unless we are getting thrashed at half time and Paul McVeigh takes the blame?? 5 minutes at the end of the match is all they would get, apart from when hucks is relegated to the bench for a game. 

I remember Iwans book stating pretty much the same.

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Come on Saint, when was the last time you saw Worthy give a sub a decent amount of time, unless we are getting thrashed at half time and Paul McVeigh takes the blame?? 5 minutes at the end of the match is all they would get, apart from when hucks is relegated to the bench for a game. 

I remember Iwans book stating pretty much the same.

To be honest Paul, it was John''s point that 20-30 minutes of a game would be ideal not mine.


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