Ramblings of madmen... Ruining our club

[a1canary 0]

You lot leave me more and more speechless by the day. Is there something in the water over there or somthing? You are all mad, mad, dillusional fools.
What is all this "if dean goes worthy must go" rubbish? You all want him out anyway. I''ve harvested some of your more ridiculous quotes, just a handful, for you to think about...!

"Get real NCFC, you''re treating us like plebs and taking our money with your grubby fat fingers"

"Not only are they showing together they have no ambition for the club they are treating their supporters like idiots"

If Ashton goes "I... will feel betrayed and incredibly badly treated" (ah, diddums!).

Treated like idiots? Badly treated? How? Betrayed about what? Because they''ve not told you everything? First of all, they''re harldy going to come out and tell us everything and reveal our situation to all interested parties are they! If he is going to go, then it is best to keep him out of the cup so we can secure a better price for him. The cup is going to be important to a lot of sides this year, it will be their only chance of getting into Europe with the top 3 league spots as good as gone. So they''re not going to want, or will certainly pay less for, a striker they can''t use in the cup.

Secondly, we bought Ashton knowing that if we went down we would have difficulty holding on to him for more than a year at best. Why all this horror at his impending departure? He''s a premiership player and we''re not going to be able to pay his premiership wages for more than a season. Plus, the transfer window system has been a nightmare for every club because it means they are forced to complete their business in a short space of time which can distort transfer fees and results in this bl***y circus where the club does have to indulge in bluffing and double bluffing.  But it might be worth remembering something that most of you clearly haven''t given a moments thought to; that believe it or not, the board and the manager want what is best for the club. If Ashton has made up his mind to go, then it is up to them to secure the best possible price for him. If he''s okay to stay until the end of the season, then all they need do is sit out the transfer window and wait for you lot to untwist your pants. If that''s possible.

I don''t live in Norwich, so i don''t know if this board is representative of how people feel over there, or of the sort of environment the club is operating in (certainly haven''t got that impression during the games i''ve been to see, although we have won the only two games i''ve seen!) but the attitude on here at least is so unhelpful. It actually reminds me of a kind of mini Newcastle. Jermaine Jenas said he left Newcastle to get out of the goldfish bowl. They expect success up there, just as suddenly everyone expects it at Norwich now. Everyone is under the microscope and subject to hyper criticism at every turn. It becomes a spiral and the weight of expectation is almost impossible break away from. They''ve been trying up there ever since Keegan left. How many years is that? 10?

This is what you lot are creating. Is that what you want? Players do read these things unfortunately. Now i''m not saying "never criticise" and that we should all be sweetness and light all the time, but recently, things have been getting ridiculous. The endless blaming of the club, board and manager for absolutely everthing. All this Ashton stuff and all the talk i''ve highlighted above associated with his possible departure. Saying the current manager has taken us backwards. And don''t get me started on the "2000 squad is no worse than our current squad" stuff.  I don''t actually believe those who have said this actually mean it, i think they''re just furstrated. Those who have said it, all named green, mcveigh and fleming in their team of 2000 which just shows how crazy it is. You''re saying the manager has created a squad 5 years on that is no better, then you''re using the players he kept on to try and show it. It''s a good example of how obsessed you''ve all become with blaming the manager for everything.

And do you know what the most frustrating thing of all is? I''m not actually that huge a fan of NW. I just can''t see how you can come up with half the things you do to blame him and criticise him for. It''s so one eyed i just feel i have to give the other side of such a lop-sided debate. Anyone who is not towing the "worthy out" party line is given this "KTF" tag like they''re some kind of leppers, when all they''re usually trying to do is and some of the fairness and reasonableness to the debate that is always so sorely lacking. Thank god there are a few reasonable people, depressingly few though. Branston Pickle, westoncanary, kentcanary... Are there any more reasonable people out there?

[Kent Canary 0]

I agree entirely with what you are saying A1, and thanks for the mention at the foot of the post too! It is becoming increasingly frustrating to read some of the messages on here and I think it is having a negative impact all round as you say.

Im not sure its indicative of the whole fan base though hence some of these ''debates'' that go on, but in general it is a bit of a bleak outlook which is distracting people from getting on with supporting the team!

Cheers

KC

[morty 0]

I agree too, I''ve long been a campaigner for down to earth, non hissy debate and am sick of telling people to get real! Theres problably only about 10 or 15 people on here who behave like chicken licken so the mad rantings aren''t really a consensus.

And, before the tirade of "are you blind to the clubs problems" etc, no I''m not. Not everything is rosy and I agree things could be better but, Chelsea apart, is any fan ever truly happy? 

[Ark 0]

I expect that a lot of the level-headed fans out there just decide to steer clear when these kinds of topics come up.

[Gentleman Jim 0]

You have said it all a1canary, you said it well and I echo your sentiments.

Though not many more on here will agree with you I''m afraid.

[St.John Cooper 0]

A1 thanks for quoting me I feel flattered.  In my opinion you should run for Chairman as it is clear you think just like our senior management.

 

What I like most about your thread is the title that "mad men are ruining our club"  So now our predicament is our entire fault, the Worthy outers and board doubters. It of course has nothing to do with our current management or team.  Thank you for clearing that up.

 

I like you do not live near Norwich in fact in Dubai and like you have only seen 2 games this season both of which we won.  I would however like to point out that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones……take from this what you will

 

 

OTBC, a reasonable person

 

 

St.John

 

[Chunky! 0]

I completely agree.  I still stand by my assertion, that while Worthy''s performance my have been lacking this season, he is still the best man for the job.I also believe that some signings, Etuhu, and Jarrett, in particular will come good, maybe not Francis good, but good enough.  It is clear Ashton will be going, he''s a bigger player than this club, and he''d be an idiot to turn down a move to the premiership.  He signed a new deal, which has helped him and the club, because it means we don''t have to play our hand and lose him at less than we want to.  If he goes now, we''ll get a decent price, if he doesn''t, we can wait till the summer and his value won''t drop.  Even if we do get promoted, I suspect he''ll go, if teams like Man City and Everton are hovering about, then why not?The rather pointless and non-sensical insults and analysis of the boards actions are disgusting, the board is doing the best for the club, and to hear the board called "short-termist" for using chunks of transfer fees to secure debts is simply stupid.  We all want Norwich to do well, but I''d rather support Norwich in the middle of the championship with a stable financial situation than support them in the relegation zone with a club funded on debt.  We''ve all seen what can happen in that situation.OTBC!Chunky

[yoda 0]

im a worthy outer but i have to say thats the most sensible post ive read for a long time .

[lucky green trainers 0]

''ramblings of madmen.....ruining our club''is this title fair, reasonable, measured, real A1?  The quotes you pick are from fans who assumed deano was going after he didn''t play yesterday, and after a post match deano statement from the club was announced.  They''re guilty of jumping to the gun, but do their outbursts signify they are lesser fans than you are? I don''t think so, they care as much as any supporter.  I agree with you that fans have been negative because of frustration - but this is to be expected given they have tasted success after 10 years in the wilderness and they don''t want to return to it. this season has been a major disappointment thus far, there''s been a huge groundswell of opinion agianst worthy, but most fans are probably waiting to see what happens now until the end of the season. how do you view foley''s ''one on the chin'' comments on friday?  Hardly likely to get people back on board, but it does serve to show that not only the fans have been affected by what''s happened this season.

[Robbo007 0]

The main problem with City fans, as in life to a point, is that a minority with a the loudest mouths (or in this case, those who post daily threads slating Worthy), are basically forcing others to agree with their views. It is propaganda that Hitler would have been proud of!!

A thread earlier in the week was slating Worthy for wasting money on Andy Gray. A debate on Worthy''s rubbish transfer record ensued. The origin of the Andy Gray story - a one line story in the Daily Mirror.

Unfortunately, the misplaced theory amongst the media that Norwich have great fans (alike "Norwich are a passing team" theory) is very untrue

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

I consider myself to be reasonable. In the past I''ve pointed out the shortcommings of these people (quotes out of context, statistics produced without any context and opinion expressed as fact seem to be the favourites) but I''m fast comming to the conclusion that it doesn''t matter what you say to them they are so blinkered that reason and fact go completely over thier heads.

I expect you''ll get replies from the usual five or six with a list of what they perceive to be the view of the majority.

[3pmkickoff 0]

Well said.

Unfortunately time and time again people are reading things in the papers and taking them as gospel. I''ve lost count of how mnay times Worthy has said he doesn''t want to sell but at the same time saying if a stupid offer came in then the club would have to consider it. This is the reality of football and any club outside the top flight.

 

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="Robbo007"]

The main problem with City fans, as in life

to a point, is that a minority with a the loudest mouths (or in this

case, those who post daily threads slating Worthy), are basically

forcing others to agree with their views. It is propaganda that Hitler

would have been proud of!!

A thread earlier in the week was slating Worthy for wasting money on

Andy Gray. A debate on Worthy''s rubbish transfer record ensued. The

origin of the Andy Gray story - a one line story in the Daily Mirror.

Unfortunately, the misplaced theory amongst the media that Norwich

have great fans (alike "Norwich are a passing team" theory) is very

untrue

[/quote]

re norwich fans being great, check our attendance yesterday to many

others , some were embarassing, look at that lot down the road. i would

say norwich fans are fantastic the crap they have put up with over the

years

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

OK I am a worthy outer and i can agree with some of your sentiments BUT

My real problems with worthy recently stem from him being the most well funded norwich manager in recent history. With this money in the last season or so he has completely and entirely wasted it.

I beg anyone to tell me any position in the team that is stronger now than it was during our promotion season. The only position is center forward and their is more chance that he is going to be gone by the end of the season than still be here.

We still do not have a right midfielder at the club - an unbeleivable situation - I can never remember a time in my norwich supporting days where for so long a position has remained unfilled.

Do we have scouts at the club?? I mean the players we have signed (hughes in particular) are just complete wastes of money. Some how we managed to fund the 750,000 signing of hucks. Then we go and waste 550,000 on someone of hughes ability.

Is it me or can we not find decent players from the lower leagues - I mean worthy bids for Jerome the leading scorer - wow where did you find him worthy.

When i here the city fan who lives in cardiff and watches them say how good koumas is and realise they are selling jerome to fund the koumas transfer.... I mean am i just the only one missing a trick here??

Personally I have place no blame against worthy for the last 2 results, injuries have destroyed the squad, and if we have to sell Dean Ashton then we have to sell him. But when you see us linked with a move for Andy Gray.... the worst thing is that it is entirely beleivable this is the sort of player we are actually signing this year. Good players are there but we are not interested - we couldff have spent the 1 million that we wasted on Etuhu and Hughes on Halford from colchester - A top quality young hungry talented motivated player, but no we get two lesser players who will not be first choicers in the centre midfield when everyone is fit. 1 million quid on reserves!!!

[Trent Canary 0]

"And do you know what the most frustrating thing of all is? I''m not actually that huge a fan of NW. I just can''t see how you can come up with half the things you do to blame him and criticise him for. It''s so one eyed i just feel i have to give the other side of such a lop-sided debate. Anyone who is not towing the "worthy out" party line is given this "KTF" tag like they''re some kind of leppers, when all they''re usually trying to do is and some of the fairness and reasonableness to the debate that is always so sorely lacking. "

Very good post. Im a worthy outer myself, but with the majority it seems as though the whole issue is being treated as a witchhunt. Ive stood up for him on occasions where its plain to see he isnt at fault, and what do you get? "Oh your just a kft''er, when we are in league one your short-sightedness will have led to this, I hope you will be happy" etc etc.

Its ridiculous. What I really dont get is this - the same people criticize the board for not listening to them, yet when they come up with non-sensical ramblings based on rumour and nothing else, why the hell would the board listen to them?

[Tom Blazak<P><IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Tom Blazak<P><P>Ronaldinho - The Huckerby Of The Nou Camp<P> 0]

now i have to  say, im more than a little confused about this one. a post calling for reason, yet in the title of the post calling us "madmen" and claiming it is in fact the WOers that are ruining the club.

A post calling for Worthy Outers to be level-headed, yet how level-headed is it to assume that because we have won 5games out of 6 against very poor teams and winning the last two more by chance than performance, that suddenly all the ills of the last 18months are undone? as that is what the KTF brigade have been doing.

Is it level-headed to have expected to get beat yesterday? i would say yes against prem opposition with the injuries we have.Then again Nuneaton Borough managed to draw 1-1 with Premiership Middlesborough, hang on a minute, that doesn''t seem logical. So let''s analyse...

Nuneaton went into the game to enjoy it and confident they could cause an upset. Are we a smaller club than Nuneaton? No, so why is it against a team that was in a lower division than us last season and haven''t really strengthened, who played a weakened side against us, did we go out with the mentality that defeat was inevitable. This doesn''t seem to be logical.

There''s a reason for this.... football is a game of passion, not reason, Bill Shankley said "Football isn''t life or death, It''s more important than that." and that sentence while probably, factually incorrect, about sums up the mentality of the sport.

Do i care about NCFC passionately? Yes of course i do. Do i let this passion cloud my judgement? yes, often. But can i honestly say, with my hand on heart these last two seasons have been very disappointing? yes i can.and this is down to the little norwich mentality we have. i readily accept we are not the Harlem Globetrotters, or Chelsea, and we will not win every game. I dont even care if we get beat 6-0 like we did at Fulham, every week.

But the condition of this unbridled affair is that the players and management show the same passion, belief and love for the club i do. and when this is being flaunted in my face, as i spend my hard earned money, to watch them flounce about like prima donnas, i dont think it is unreasonable or the rambling of a madman to voice my disgust.

i do not blame worthington for everything. i do blame him for what is his responsibility. i blame him for signing very poor players this season. i blame him for letting eddy, svennson and jonson go when they would have doubled the quality we currently have available. i certainly blame him for very poor loan signings when the kids should have had a chance. i blame him for not being able to motivate the players above the little norwich mentality. i blame him for inept tactical decisions, and poor substitutions.

I will not blame him if Ashton goes because ultimately that decision has nothing to do with him, it is down to the board if they accept a bid, and it is down to the lad himself if he wants to go. however, i will hold worthington responsible if Ashton does go for the way in which he spends the proceeds of the sale. Cameron Jerome - lightning quick 19yr old, strong, top scorer in the league = good. Andy Gray 26/27 yr old workhorse who is only suited to long ball football rather than the slick passing game we used to be renowned for, and whose career goal average reads 1 in every 6 or 7 games.= bad

i will also hold worthington responsible if he does not sign a right winger this january, regardless of the Ashton situation as it is clear we so desperately need one. and if the funds are unavailable, then i will hold him accountable for not using his transfer budget better, and not buying at the start of the season.

overall, it is my opinion that it is time for worthington to exit through the FCR door one final time, i think his tenure here was over a long time ago and i was calling for his head a mere 3 or 4 games into the season, when i realised how poor we were. This is not an opinion i take lightly, and i am very grateful for everything that nigel has done for us over his spell in charge. i just feel he cannot take us to the next level. this was not a rash decision, as it has been formed over a period of 18months. i think this is ample time to reach a level headed conclusion.

well there you go, more "ramblings of a madman" hope i haven''t "ruined the club" with my post, and i hope this will make everyone think, rather than just say worthy outers are not level headed as this is a very childish and factually incorrect comment

(P.S if anyone wants to check my Andy Gray stats, i posted them in a thread by 1st wiz  entitled andy gray or something to that effect.)

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

I have to agree with most of what''s been said above (and thanks for the menion, A1!)- whilst eveyone is entitled to their view, there are plenty of Posters on here who do seem to have gone into a downward spiral of believing as gospel the negative side of any story affecting the Club, which is rather sad.  Of course there are times when criticism is due, but it does not have to be constant.   

[0peteddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

Obviously our results and performances this season have been a mirage.  Everything in the gardens is lovely.  Perhaps the Press ought to stop reporting City performances and we can stop reading them and then the madmen can become as delusional as the rest of the rose tinted brigade. 

[a1canary 0]

Wow, well that has warmed the cockles - there are reasonable people out there afer all!

To Lucky Green and St John, the headline was just an attention grabber - nowhere in the post do i actually say you are ruining the club. My concern is that at this rate, we will end up with the type of hyper-critical, magnifying glass environment at Newcastle (and Wolves for that matter) in which no team or manager can be allowed to thrive. Given the size of support Wolves enjoy, of both fans and of Jack Hayward, and the amount of time the''ve spent one level below the top flight, it''s incredible that they''ve only once managed to make it into the premiership. Good managers, good players, good support. Why do you think that is?
And it''s funny that the one man who achieved what many respected managers before him failed to do, was sacked having been unable to keep them up, and has gone on to thrive at a club that doesn''t put him under the magnifying glass to such an extent. And the same goes for all the other clubs he''s been at. Dave Jones in case anyone''s wondering.

Look at the parallels. We''re not like Wolves yet, but is this the way you want our club to go?

[Fat Barman 0]

I''m being lazy and recycling bits of another post, because I''m short of time and it''s worth saying twice!In my 30-odd years of following City, our natural position in the big

scheme has been between 15th and 25th (to my mind) in English football

- sometimes we''ve over-achieved, sometimes (as now) we''ve been

below-par. We''re only about half-a-dozen places below my arbitrary

niche of 15th - 25th and I hope to finish within this bracket by the

end of the season. Even if we don''t, I''ll just have to accept it as one

of those under-achieving seasons - not a strong enough case to throw my

toys out of the pram and demand wholesale changes. I was ecstatic those

times we finished above 15th in the top flight - this is just the flip

side that you sometimes have to endure (not like, just endure). Had we

stayed in the Prem 12 years ago we might have established ourselves a

further 5 places up the ladder - it was not to be and we now face a

much harder struggle to try and achieve this. It''s a struggle I believe

we can win as long as we can keep a sense of perspective through poor

times, as well as good.

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

I''m deeply hurt that I don''t get a mention as a reasonable poster ;-) However,  completely agree A1. It''s not about whether anyone wants Worthy to stay or go, it''s about the ridiculous witch hunt that started with Worthy and has now spread to the board and anyone else associated with the club. The saddest thing is how much like Wolves supporters City''s fans are starting to look like, baying for the blood of players that have fewer than 10 games under their belts (Thorne, Etuhu, remember Doc and Iwan anyone?), claiming that winning 5/6 was lucky (yes Sheff Utd game, we were so lucky that even Ferguson and Royal voted that the performance of the week!), crying like babies cos Worthy said he didn''t care what the fans said (boo hoo, nasty man) and that the club are treating the fans like idiots. Well, since half the fans behave like idiots, one can hardly blame them if they did. Which they''re not anyway!!

[Old Boy 0]

Well said a1canary. I think I qualify as "reasonable" under your definition, since I seem to have spent months posting against a lunatic hysteria that''s got totally out of hand. Rumours have been inflated, and even created, with the sole purpose of targeting the manager and board. There''s some sort of collective idiocy taking over, and it makes you embarrassed on behalf of the Club and the city.

In a sense I''m more radical than any of the Worthy Outers: I see (and have seen for years - right Mook?) shortcomings in many aspects of the Club, including the football coaching, the fitness coaching, the recruitment of players, and the man-management/motivation of players, which together will probably mean that we''ll struggle in the Premiership if we get back there soon, but there are three major differences beween me and the rabid W.O.s

1) These shortcomings can''t be totally pinned on Worthy. They go wider than that. The Club management, the wider coaching staff and, for sure, the players can''t be let off the hook. That''s not to say that Worthy is in the clear - he needs to up his game. But, for example, the sparse squad that we have (and at the moment that problem is exaggerated by extreme injury and suspension issues) is probably as much to do with Doncaster''s assessment of what the Club can afford as with anything that Worthy did or didn''t do.

2) Attacking Club personnel (who any reasonable person would recognise as being well-meaning at the very least) in a malicious way, and advocating virtually dismantling the club ("Sack the Board, and Worthy, and Doncaster, and Foley, and....etc. etc" - that''s not an unusual attitude in posts these days) is as good a way of a true City fan shooting himself, or herself, in the foot as you could imagine. It puts a barrier between the players and coaches, and the fans, which I for one don''t want to see, because it doesn''t reflect what I feel. When Craig Fleming (Club and current team captain) runs out onto the pitch these days, he doesn''t acknowledge the fans. Why do you think that is? If these people had their way, can they foresee the consequences? Because I can''t. So it''s gambling everything for the

3) Above all, there is NO CRISIS, and never has been one. There has been unacceptable under-performance from the players on the field and we aren''t in the league position that we "should be", but that''s the extent of it. It would have been remarkable if we''d managed to stay in the Premiership (which we only failed to do by one point) since those who have done it have usually spent the seasons prior to promotion, and a lot of money, on building up a squad that could sustain that status. We didn''t, as I said, probably not through neglect or naivety, but through financial prudence. There are certainly issues that need to be addressed to improve our chances of staying in the Premiership next time, and our role, as supporters, is to put pressure on those in power to do that. But that''s not done by dynamiting the whole structure.

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]

Look at the parallels. We''re not like Wolves yet, but is this the way you want our club to go?

[/quote]can''t agree with you A1. yes, worthy and city have been under pressure from supporters, but this in no way compares to ''goldfish bowl'' environment of newcastle - a multi-million pound team where success is expected.   wolves decided to replace jones, and replaced him with an ex-england manager - who steadied the ship last season and his team is lying closer to the play-offs than we are - is that failure? To replace worthy needn''t be the end of the world.Having said that, there''s no easy answer, just look at the start burley''s had at soton, but the bottom line remains, that the supporters want to see city do well - however they choose to express their support.I''m pleased that people are impassioned, it shows that NCFC matters.

[Misery Guts 0]

Agreed.

I''m only 20 but I can recall much darker days before this , losing to Southend at home anyone ? When it looked like a genuine possibillity that we could be playing in Divison 2 . Norwich City , historicaly, is a club that belongs at the bottom/mid table of the premiership and the top or there abouts of the championship and as the gentleman above me has noted , we aren''t too far away from that.

The thing that annoys me most is that this is probably one of the best squad of players that I have seen in short history of Norwich fandom and we seem to be underacheiving a bit.  

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

Living 150 miles away from Norwich (but still having a season ticket), these Boards do tend to keep me in contact with what is going on day-in, day-out, but it is rather boring to constantly get a barrage of negative stories based on nothing more than rumour, or the taking of comments out of context.  Criticism where it is due is fair enough, but some have gone way overboard, and it is pleasing to see that others agree.  This thread has restored a lot of my faith in our supporters, as it does seem there are many who are as fed up with the continuous witch hunts as I am, including those from the Worthy Out ''camp''. 

[Northern Canary 0]

v v good post. I totally agree

[hucks for eng 0]

well said to many negative fans, just posting rubbish on here can we have a little more sense please???

[The Voice of the Thorpe Area 0]

Well said, agree 100% with what you''re saying.

[shardy 0]

   I would like to say well done a1 this is exactly how I''ve been feeling for bloody ages about this message board, I used to leave posts on hear but quite frankly I can''t be arsed to even read the crap on hear these days. I couldn''t even tell you how long it''s been since I last left a post.

   Most of it is hysterical ranting about this that or the other, and as you point out it doesn''t help the team one bit. So much so that worthy and the board had to come out and try to calm posters down because it was getting out of hand.

   As for football matters I do think that our squad is too small and i do believe the board are playing a game of poker as far as transfer dealings are concerned, so just shut up with all the negative crap, name calling and hysterical rants and use this board for it''s intended purpose, which is to discuss footballing issues i.e performances, team selections who''s good who''s crap (negative I know) transfers etc, not who''s doing what to who or any other sinister fragment of your imagination.

   Lets all calm down and try to revert back to writing intersting posts rather than trying to see who can get the most replies to their contaversial post (makes for dull reading).

[a1canary 0]

Ok Lucky Green, so Wolves are allowed a season to steady the ship but we''re not? Make that a season plus half another season (this) during which i don''t believe for a minute that, with both squads fully fit, they''re any better than us.

I never said we are the same as Newcastle - i believe my words were "It actually reminds me of a kind of mini Newcastle." Note the words ''kind of'' and ''mini.'' I was pointing to an example of what happens when a club is constantly criticised and staff targetted, Wolves being another such example. The result is not something i''d like to happen at NCFC but which could do if all the fans think like some of the people seem to on here.

Thakfully, all the replies to this post have restored my faith in NCFC fans, far more than i expected. Thanks guys! And for reminding us of the other ''level headers'' out there - gorleston, old boy, SPat, morty, chunky, ncfc4prem, robbo etc, and trent and yoda - worthy outers who can appreciate that the ''witch hunt'' (exactly right trent) has got out of hand in recent weeks.