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Indy

One CB from being a very good a Premiership Team?

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2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

I thought Hanley did ok today if that's really your point. we didn't stop the cross coming in for Abrahams 1st and their 2nd a result of us pissing about from our goal kick, their 3rd an excellent counter attack. We could have had 2 Godfreys and they would still have scored.

Thought he was decent today for much of the game day although it is starting to look as though whilst he's a very good 'traditional' centre half he is going to struggle against some of the quicker more mobile strikers he's going to come up against in the Prem.

But certainly wouldn't pin the defeat on him today, didn't think either Aarons or Lewis hit their usual standards but that is very forgiveable given their youth and that they were facing a very good team - far more impressive than Liverpool IMO. Godfrey was the only one of the back four today that really looked the part but with Klose and Zimmerman on the way back and all the youngsters learning quickly I'm still very confident that we'll be fine.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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51 minutes ago, Renskay said:

I think Hanley just isn't a good leader.

He's the captain but after every mistake he's got his head in his hands like it's the end of the world, which differs from what Zimbo would do who as a natural leader, just gets fired up and helps the defence find its feet again after a mistake.

Short memories... Hanley our best defender in Zimmermann's first season, he would have learnt a lot from Hanley. 

Hanley has been the model pro since losing his place.

His level is the Championship but deserves more than threads like this, has been a model pro. 

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

The finger might be pointed to the club not spending that little bit more on a better CB to sure us up over a long season. Just opinions guys.

What seems to have gone over some people's heads is that Ampadou can play centre back or defensive midfielder, like Ben Godfrey. That's what Farke said when we signed him? 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Although Farke said we won’t change our philosophy against the big boys I think when we have everyone fit we’re going to have to. Chelsea looked like they would score from every attack today, Man City will be far more clinical and we will take a absolute hammering against them playing like we did today

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41 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Short memories... Hanley our best defender in Zimmermann's first season, he would have learnt a lot from Hanley. 

Hanley has been the model pro since losing his place.

His level is the Championship but deserves more than threads like this, has been a model pro. 

This is why sentiment has no place in football, being a model pro doesn’t mean he’s good enough, football is a performance based industry and if you’re not good enough you get cut!

 

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

This is why sentiment has no place in football, being a model pro doesn’t mean he’s good enough, football is a performance based industry and if you’re not good enough you get cut!

 

Brutal  but true. 

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43 minutes ago, Indy said:

This is why sentiment has no place in football, being a model pro doesn’t mean he’s good enough, football is a performance based industry and if you’re not good enough you get cut!

How about pragmatism? I see no sense in creating a scapegoat out of or further denting the confidence of somebody who we know is just filling in right now and who, whether you like it or not, was given a new five year contract just one year ago. 

You may find that the cards aren't all in the clubs hands with that one mate, he could get paid for four years to be a terrible pro if he wanted and that there is no option to "cut" a contracted player as and when we want. 

We could well need him again on the pitch should it transpire after he reverts to being a backup player that he isn't the root cause of all our problems afterall and we get relegated this season. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Hanley's turn of pace is embarrassing and proven he's clumsy. His own goal at Liverpool changed their gameplan making the oppositions life easier, and today every time a player ran at him and cut in or changed direction they got 3 yards on him. Made Tammy Abrahams look world class. It really is a shame we didn't use our money and prem status to attract a better CB regardless of Klose and Zimmerman.  

Hopefully though with another CB coming in and a CDM sooner rather than later we will start to pick up a point or 3 more often than not.

OTBC

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5 hours ago, Indy said:

I hate to say we should have spent a few million, but I really believe we have three absolute gems in Godfrey, Aarons and Lewis, with a great bench to cover those positions, but without Zimmermann we look like conceding goals. I honestly believe had we spent a few million on a decent young CB in the summer we’d be a comfortable mid table!

Still think we’ll stay up comfortably. 

Yeah, but who? Adam Webster went from £3.5 million to £20 million in one season. Bristol City didn't finish in the playoffs, Webster didn't get in the Championship team of the year, and he's on the bench at Brighton!

Edited by Icecream Snow

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11 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

Yeah, but who? Adam Webster went from £3.5 million to £20 million in one season. Bristol City didn't finish in the playoffs, Webster didn't get in the Championship team of the year, and he's on the bench at Brighton!

That’s what you pay scouts for!

Edited by Indy

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5 minutes ago, Indy said:

That’s what you pay scouts for!

Hanley was very close to signing for a Championship club in July and that suggests that we had somebody lined up doesn't it? 

Either we had somebody lined up but we pulled out when we found out we had to keep paying Hanley, or our move fell through and we told Hanley he was required after all.

But Hanley wouldn't have been that close to signing for another team if we didn't have a target or two in that position.

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Agree with comments about a DM being the main thing. The third goal doesn’t happen if our midfielders don’t continue to back off. Perhaps that’s also where we do have a bit of “naivety”... I think a lot of the “established” prem teams when faced with a counter attacking Chelsea at 2-2 would have committed a ‘tactical foul’ on the half way line. We just backed off and let him pick out Abraham. 

Won’t be a popular opinion but Aarons probably at fault for the first two goals. Not only gave it away in the build up, but I think also failed to get back in both times. Krul should be stopping the third as well.

As for Hanley, he’s our fourth choice. I don’t think he did anything terrible today, but he is just a yard off the pace. He’s either not quite close enough or too close and not quick enough to jockey/stand his man up when they twist and turn him. Decent backup but I don’t think he’ll be starting when others are fit.

 

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As much as I'm grateful for what Hanley had given to the club, especially as a club captain, but on the pitch he's been notably a step down from Klose or Zimm. If Klose is fit, we need to drop Hanley. Hard to say if we'd have got points but he was at fault for 2 goals again today, the goal against Newcastle and a few of the goals against Liverpool. Time is up!

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42 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Agree with comments about a DM being the main thing. The third goal doesn’t happen if our midfielders don’t continue to back off. Perhaps that’s also where we do have a bit of “naivety”... I think a lot of the “established” prem teams when faced with a counter attacking Chelsea at 2-2 would have committed a ‘tactical foul’ on the half way line. We just backed off and let him pick out Abraham. 

Won’t be a popular opinion but Aarons probably at fault for the first two goals. Not only gave it away in the build up, but I think also failed to get back in both times. Krul should be stopping the third as well.

As for Hanley, he’s our fourth choice. I don’t think he did anything terrible today, but he is just a yard off the pace. He’s either not quite close enough or too close and not quick enough to jockey/stand his man up when they twist and turn him. Decent backup but I don’t think he’ll be starting when others are fit.

 

I think young Max is finding it a bit of a struggle at the moment. Hardly surprising, given his age & lack of experience.

But he'll improve. That's the most exciting thing about our team; him, Jamal. Ben, Emi, Onel all have potential to improve. I'd mention Todd, but if he gets any better it'd be frightening!

 

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8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Short memories... Hanley our best defender in Zimmermann's first season, he would have learnt a lot from Hanley. 

Hanley has been the model pro since losing his place.

His level is the Championship but deserves more than threads like this, has been a model pro. 

 On CURRENT evidence he's not good enough.

It's worrying every time he gets the ball at the moment.

I saw people saying that Hanley wasn't capable of playing Farke's style last season because of his lack of technical ability and I kind of didn't buy it fully and thought he would do well if he was given the chance.

He's gotten his chance now and he can't play this style of football because he ISN'T good enough. Given it's a higher level but the rest of the team are all doing it too.

It's not even that he makes the mistakes because all the players do at some period but it's just how he will act when he does them and his reaction to playing badly. Head in hands and falling to the ground over dramatically and moping.

He doesn't seem like a winner.

The rest of that defensive line all do.

They are all so confident and determined to play well and he just sticks out so much compared to them.

Drop him and don't look back. You literally can't afford to make the mistakes he has made in literally every game now.

 

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Recall last year that we had four points from the first five games, and several people were commenting that if we also lost to Ipswich, Farke was out?

Changes were made and the season panned out OK didn't it?

 

I'm sure Farke and his team see exactly what is going on, and we'll evolve from this line up over the next few games. 

Edited by Surfer

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1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Recall last year that we had four points from the first five games, and several people were commenting that if we also lost to Ipswich, Farke was out?

Changes were made and the season panned out OK didn't it?

 

I'm sure Farke and his team see exactly what is going on, and we'll evolve from this line up over the next few games. 

I've run out of likes, have an uppy 👍

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Three very entertaining games into a Prem season and here we have condemnation, talk of system change and lack of spending.

How were we doing three games into last season?

Hanley had to play because of injuries and everyone knew he was back up only but he has played and that is that. We can't escape the fact that we cannot have a squad with four players for every position who each cost a fortune.

We do not need to change the system. We can cope. Why would we want to give probably better teams than us, more possession than they already have?

Don't listen Daniel

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3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Three very entertaining games into a Prem season and here we have condemnation, talk of system change and lack of spending.

How were we doing three games into last season?

Hanley had to play because of injuries and everyone knew he was back up only but he has played and that is that. We can't escape the fact that we cannot have a squad with four players for every position who each cost a fortune.

We do not need to change the system. We can cope. Why would we want to give probably better teams than us, more possession than they already have?

Don't listen Daniel

No one is suggesting changing the system apart from a select one or two games. If the Man City match transpires the way yesterday’s did they will genuinely hit us for 7 plus goals. Chelsea could have had far more yesterday but are not clinical, Man City are lethal. It’s to be applauded that we approach these games with no fear but if we go against Man City that way the result will be an absolute battering that may destroy the confidence 

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25 minutes ago, JF said:

No one is suggesting changing the system apart from a select one or two games. If the Man City match transpires the way yesterday’s did they will genuinely hit us for 7 plus goals. Chelsea could have had far more yesterday but are not clinical, Man City are lethal. It’s to be applauded that we approach these games with no fear but if we go against Man City that way the result will be an absolute battering that may destroy the confidence 

To be fair, how do you play against Man City? Put men behind the ball, add an extra defender and hope you hold out? Then you only get hit for four instead of six, and may as well have not bothered turning up anyway. Especially with our defence, we can’t play that way, even with an extra defender. The full backs are attacking full backs and aren’t the best defensively, they couldn’t hold out for 90 mins against Man City. Klose, Zimmerman or Hanley would all struggle with Man City’s pace and movement. Godfrey in my opinion struggles from concentration lapses (probably due to his age) and would get caught out of position at least once in the game if trying to defend for 90 minutes against a Man City onslaught. 

If I thought we were able to play any other way, I’d probably agree with you. But especially against the top sides, we won’t hold out for a 0-0. Chelsea were better than us, but we made a game of it. If we’d added an extra man at the back and tried be defensive, I don’t think we would have made a game of it.

 

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15 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

I'm pretty confident that putting either Klose or Zimmermann 

Exactly this. Changing Hanley for Zimm or Klose will make next to no difference. It's the strategy of the team and defensive behaviour generally that needs to improve. 

As excellent as Cantwell, Buendia & Steipermann are and have been, they do often rush the play and lose the ball in advanced postions that seems to leave us wide open for the counter attack. A counter at pace and power simply overwhelms Leitner and Trybull (and Mclean). Players good in close quarters, but simply not quick or physical enough to power in and halt play. It's knife through butter stuff sometimes.

Yes it was Chelsea, and yes we were still very good in spells. But lets not kid ourselves. We lacked any real control and always looked vulnerable. And this isn't a direct reflection in the step up of opposition, we had similar defensive issues last season.

I'm not suggesting we change our brand of football, which is a joy to watch at times, but we need to find a way of controlling the game for at least short periods, and give ourselves a chance to re-set and recover. We're more than good enough on the ball to be able to do this. Had we done this today I think we definitely get a point. 

We badly missed the directness of Hernandez, and the controlling influence of Vrancic. Easy to say now, I know. But Hernandez gets defneders busy and on the back foot, whilst Vrancic can hold onto the ball and doesn't rush a fancy Buendia/Cantwell flick. I think Vrancic, Roberts and Amadou all need to be tried in the not too distant future. 

This is spot on. Nuff said.

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18 hours ago, Indy said:

There could be an argument for playing all three Klose, Godfrey and Zimmermann to allow Aarons and Lewis to push on knowing we have cover. But then you negate that midfield which has been good so far.

I wouldnt like to see us trying to change our system, We did that2 seasons ago and it didnt work. Stick to what has brought you success

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I must agree that is hard to blame always Hanley and especially yesterday  both full backs have nightmare game and same time our midfield not cover good too.

But all know what is the limit for Hanley and he is no doubt bellow average level for PL.

We know Farke not like to change often team especially when results is good but only positive from Chelsea game I see that now Farke have "permission" to make changes because we lost and Klose for Hanley is a must imo.

 

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On 24/08/2019 at 17:49, Indy said:

Because he’s not very good......He’s not quick on his feet nor his reactions, while he’s been costing us goals young Godfrey has had very solid performances. Another decent CB alongside and we might have nicked something today!

I agree. Hanley would have been sold had Klose and Zimmermann been fit IMO as he knows he’s 4th choice. With Amadou arriving you could argue he’s 5th choice once he’s fit.  

Hanley tries hard but is a top half Championship defender at best. Newcastle got rid as soon as they got promoted as soon as they found a buyer, Norwich should do the same and re-invest the funds elsewhere.

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I think we really need to see what Amadou can do. The Leitner/Trybull combo in the middle lacks mobility and is quite easily exposed by players running at them. 

Hanley has come in and performed OK considering the opposition but he similarly looked **** scared by a bit of pace. I'm more concerned about the defending as a unit- look at how far over the entire back 4 is for the first goal for example.

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I love all this talk about buying a CD who will be better than we've already got.

Easy to say but a tad more difficult to execute.

Perhaps we should have splashed out on player with PL experience. Well that wouldn't be cheap, either in transfers or wages, and haven't we been down that road before without it making any difference (apart from making us skint) .

Maybe we should have got someone with potential from a lower league and hoped that they would develop here. But isn't that what we are already doing with Zimmerman & Godfrey? And then of course there is Raggett.

Maybe we should have really gone for it with David Luiz and only conceded 3 goals instead of 4 at Anfield.

And what about Maguire at Man U. Is he really worth £80m?

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1st goal Abrahams runs from deep, no midfielders track him leaving him 1-on-1 with Aarons, not Hanley's fault

2nd goal Godfrey gets drawn to the ball leaving a huge gap for Mount to run into, not Hanley's fault

3rd goal the whole of the midfield switch off after Pukki's shot, letting Chelsea carve through us, again, not Hanley's fault

At worst, the first two goals were down to mistakes by younger players, but that is how young lads learn, by making mistakes. The third was due to the team switching off as a whole, so singling out individuals is extremely unfair. As is aiming vitriol at Hanley as the cause of our defensive woes. I am not convinced that we would be any more solid at the back with Klose or Zimmerman in the side over Hanley and/or Godfrey. Farke's tactics are very gung-ho and that will leave us exposed at the back if you want your fullbacks to bomb forward. However I fancy us to out score enough teams this season to be lower mid table.

 

 

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Whilst goal 2 was not Hanley's fault, he could have done a far better job of stopping it, mount cuts inside far too easily when Hanley is stood in front of him, Godfrey was not at fault for that one. If you think Godfrey was drawn to far too the ball, whose space was the ball carrier going into and hadn't reacted?

Goal 3 was totally his fault, it was a simple straight ball from deep, Hanley was playing Abraham's inside by not keeping in line and then turned his back and was slow to react. 

I'm not saying he's carp or attacking him, but he is definitely the weakest link in this backline and it was notable how much Chelsea attacked at him as opposed to Godfrey, I thought it was plainly they targeted Hanley, especially in the second half.

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Just to add, despite me highlighting Hanley's deficiencies, he does get full support and he isn't the sole reason for us losing the game or conceding goals, we attack as a team and defend as a team and we should be protecting weak links more. It's just unfortunate that when a CB makes an error it often leads to a chance.

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