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Who to trust- pundits or fans?

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Many fans are trusting in the positives of the Liverpool performance and buying into the “webberlution” notion; that we can stay up having spent next to nothing to bridge the gulf between champ and prem due to the quality of our play and talent already here. 

Yet most pundits and impartial friends, including Chris Sutton, are trusting in the negatives of the Liverpool performance and suggest we have been very naive to think we can spend so little and that we are nailed on for relegation despite being plucky. 

Which is it? One can argue all day about how bias/impartial pundits really are. 

I find myself in the middle. We have some fantastic talent at this club and a great manager but - once again- we have failed to back them on promotion and will leave it to January, by which time it is too late, to adequately strengthen. 

Liverpool showed me we can attack with the best of them. It also showed me that we should have purchased an experienced CB and moved Hanley on. Leaving zimmo and Klose as back up. The mayor also looked out of his depth etc.. so whilst my heart still says 15th my head, post Liverpool defensive display, is saying 20th

We will, of course, know more after Newcastle. One swallow does not a summer make and I put my hands up as one who underestimated this team after five games last season. But equally don’t underestimate how good even the “weaker” teams are in this division and last years goals against concerns me. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Not a bad post DCB and it's a bed of nails to post some sort of founded criticism on the messageboard atm. I am not one to follow the pundits reasoning tbh , most of them just follow the logic of the big money being the main way of staying up! Fulham last year showed that it has to be a mix of both. We are trying to prove the opposite , which I don't think is a very good idea either...but I still trust DF, SW and I think we will stay up ... just... But we really should have invested a bit more... There are obvious holes in our defense... Hanley looked completely out of depth...I know it was liverpool , but still ... The young lads can't be faulted for making a few mistakes and I reckon Max, Ben and Jamal will rise to the challenge . I don't trust the ability of some substitutes (Heise, Srbeny...) to cut it in the Prem though...so what if we have a few injuries (as was painfully clear at LFC) ?

We should have invested a few million in a centre back , thankfully we got our defensive midfielder, because I too thought the Mayor looked out of his depth ... sorry...I am concerned too. But I will pass judgement after the NFC game , because we played the best team in the Prem on friday...

As indicated, I don't listen to the pundits tbh , but if you ask me , it was painfully clear that the depth of our squad at least is lacking for a whole season in the prem...it is lacking...

If we beat Newcastle and get going (I mean points on the board , confidence ,...) , then you might get ridiculed...but as soon as the injuries are there and we have a few of the afore mentioned subs playing...I feel we could get some nasty results...

Edited by ROBFLECK

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Having been at the game I have my own view.

 

pundits in football are a very mixed bunch and many are frankly lazy ex-pros who clearly do no research or preparation and think they can just trot out tired and obvious  comments with no real insight because they used to play a long time ago. Lawrenson and Shearer being prime examples. I have no respect or interest in their opinions about City or anything else.

 

There are some rare pundits who can actually look below the surface and say something interesting, like the guy linked on the “another interesting stat” thread. I do respect what those guys have to say and if it goes against my view, I’ll think about it and sometimes I am persuaded to change it.

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Posted (edited)

Yes we should be concerned, however IMO we’d still be concerned even if we had spent a ton of money, and as we found out last time, getting much better players in doesn’t always occur as the best players don’t want to come here. 

Existing squad under-performers (based on what we saw, and in the positions they played, last year) for me : McGovern, Hanley, Srbeny. Add in marginal performers : Krull, Klose, Heisse, Trybull, McLean, Cantwell. Genuine class performers: Aarons, Lewis, Godfrey, Zimmermann, Vrancic, Leitner, Pukki, Buendia, Stiepermann, Hernandez. 

So based on ONE GAME some played better - Cantwell and Krull come to mind, and others played worse - Lewis, Trybull, McLean and Steipermann come to mind - than last season’s experience would indicate; but it’s one game, away v’s the league winner in almost any other year, so I’m still very positive we can sort our defending out, and will be successful scoring against teams. 

Yes I’m concerned about our CB and DM options, but we hopefully will have the worst of that sorted out when our 1st choice CB, and our new DM signing, can be put into the team. 

I also know I feel a whole lot better about our prospects for this season than I did at the same time last year 🙂  

OTBC 

Edited by Surfer

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I’m not sure how either party can judge after a single game, particularly one away to the European champions. Of course there were positive and negative signs but until we’ve played 8-10 games I’m not sure how anyone can form a definitive opinion. It’s highly likely we will get better as we have young players who will learn on the job, and a manager who will learn things every time we play. But nobody has any idea really at this stage about how we’ll  fair or how many teams will be worse than us, it’s impossible after one game. 

Unfortunately football today is 24/7 punditry and opinion, air time has to be filled with something. I heard Pochettino getting criticised yesterday after they won 3-1 and people questioning Lampard’s job, totally and utterly bonkers. But something we have to put up with unfortunately. 

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I've seen more positive things written about Norwich's performance on Friday than negative things. 

There were some snap judgements at the time that were probably a bit knee jerk and comments made during the game - when it looked like Liverpool could go on to score 6 or 7 - that were more damning on Norwich. Post game, with a bit of reflection most comments were fairly positive for Norwich. Even Jamie Carragher said some nice things (after flip flopping several times during the game).

 

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Posted (edited)

There's only one certainty at the moment and that is that nobody has any real idea how we will do. Many so called "expert" pundits aren't really any more knowledgeable that the fans who follow their own team closely IMO.

There are so many things that are impossible to judge at this stage, such as how well will our young stars improve during the season. How much did nerves play a part in that opening day. How will injuries impact on us this year. Will DF find a way of tightening us up a fraction without losing our forward momentum. Amadou is likely to be an important player and if he succeeds or fails will be a major factor.

I admit I'm a bit nervous about whats coming but I still feel there are grounds for optimism too. As Ricky points out we will know where we are heading after 12 games or so.

Small point - I'm sure I saw Sutton's pre-season prediction where he had us at 15th?

Edited by Hairy Canary
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1 hour ago, ROBFLECK said:

Not a bad post DCB and it's a bed of nails to post some sort of founded criticism on the messageboard atm. I am not one to follow the pundits reasoning tbh , most of them just follow the logic of the big money being the main way of staying up! Fulham last year showed that it has to be a mix of both. We are trying to prove the opposite , which I don't think is a very good idea either...but I still trust DF, SW and I think we will stay up ... just... But we really should have invested a bit more... There are obvious holes in our defense... Hanley looked completely out of depth...I know it was liverpool , but still ... The young lads can't be faulted for making a few mistakes and I reckon Max, Ben and Jamal will rise to the challenge . I don't trust the ability of some substitutes (Heise, Srbeny...) to cut it in the Prem though...so what if we have a few injuries (as was painfully clear at LFC) ?

We should have invested a few million in a centre back , thankfully we got our defensive midfielder, because I too thought the Mayor looked out of his depth ... sorry...I am concerned too. But I will pass judgement after the NFC game , because we played the best team in the Prem on friday...

As indicated, I don't listen to the pundits tbh , but if you ask me , it was painfully clear that the depth of our squad at least is lacking for a whole season in the prem...it is lacking...

If we beat Newcastle and get going (I mean points on the board , confidence ,...) , then you might get ridiculed...but as soon as the injuries are there and we have a few of the afore mentioned subs playing...I feel we could get some nasty results...

Thing is Flecky, a few million probably buys us a Hanley, or a Klose or a Raggett….

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I totally agree with the posts on the punditry , I just can't listen to them anymore... as soon as Gary linekers face appears on MOTD , I start fast forwarding... I see posts on tw@tter appearing, but try not to read them...

The fact that it's one game against the European champions is very valid too

But I think the OP has it bang on , when he talks about the strength of our squad. We had a few injuries to our CBs and we got trounced.  I understand the filosophy and would love for it to work...but it's just a tad naive to think we will cope with the bench we have now

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We all have different ways of looking at things. Certainly most pundits are lacking in real knowledge or insight and simply push the common view so that they sound reasonable.  Others - like Gary Neville try to see beyond that and try to be balanced, but that is rare. 

Many fans are too negative, believe the pundits, or are always sceptical anyway about the club being able to do well whatever the truth is.

The best way to be (imo) is to not accept what pundits say, not accept what fans say, not even to accept what you own view is....football is uncertain and difficult to pin down.  A team can be rubbish for 30 games then go on a good run.....a team can be fantastic for 10 games then go on a downer.  

My advice (for what it's worth) is to just go with the flow and try and be positive, even when times are hard. Try not to go along with the media/punditry who are just trying to pigeon hole things and sound knowledgeable, try not to go along with what is said on social media which is often full of jaundiced views.

The best people to follow are those who do have real insight....but they are rare, even the most insightful knowledgeable football person will have views that are just guesswork.....football really is unfathomable at times even to the best and most knowledgeable of people.  You only have to look at our ups and downs since 2009 to see that.  Our roller coaster ride has been almost totally unpredictable, from Lambert to the present day...and it is still unpredictable - we are the antithesis of what modern football is supposed to be about - getting success without lots of money - and it is going to be fascinating to see if we can continue being successful with the way we are doing things.

Don't take what others say as gospel.....think for yourselves!

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2 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

Thing is Flecky, a few million probably buys us a Hanley, or a Klose or a Raggett….

That's a good point Fuzz...I can't argue with that

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31 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I've seen more positive things written about Norwich's performance on Friday than negative things. 

There were some snap judgements at the time that were probably a bit knee jerk and comments made during the game - when it looked like Liverpool could go on to score 6 or 7 - that were more damning on Norwich. Post game, with a bit of reflection most comments were fairly positive for Norwich. Even Jamie Carragher said some nice things (after flip flopping several times during the game).

 

When I watched the game live I actually thought Carraghers comments were completely valid. Yes he said we were too open at the back - which we were against such a high class opposition. Liverpool took advantage of that openness and took their chances very well. He said that if we played like that in every game then we will concede a lot of goals and will lose a lot of games. That's true and we all know that already. We only did so well last season because we could out-score the opposition.

On the other hand, he also said that our attacking play was quite brilliant at times and if we were more clinical we could have had a number of goals. At half time he was saying that Norwich deserved to have at least one goal and when we did score he said that it was fully deserved and that he was happy we got something out of it and the performance really didn't deserve to go home goal-less.

He did concede that we were playing against the best team in Europe and that if we attacked like that in every game then we should will a few against most other teams. His reservations that premier league teams will take advantage of defensive naivety  and openness is perfectly valid. 

Personally I really enjoyed watching the game. Yes we were well beaten and in reality, they could have scored more. If we looked like making a come-back I think they would have upped the intensity and finished us off. But we did look good going forward and we were a constant threat, even when they were playing at their best through the 1st 40 minutes.

I think we will survive. There will be some disappointments along the way, some heavy losses, and not necessarily against the biggest teams. Some of the mid-table teams will work us out and take advantage of any weaknesses. Equally, I think there will be some big wins along the way and we might just upset a few of the big teams with some shock (to some) results!

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This “we should have bought a better centre back” argument ticks me off a little. I don’t remember hearing it before Klose and Zimmerman were injured but once Hanley makes a few mistakes in our first game against Liverpool, it becomes obvious that we should have strengthened?

 

We have four CBs, and a new signing who apparently could also fill in there. Just how many centre backs do people want us to buy? It’s like the “we need another striker” complaint. Who could we afford, who would be better than Hanley, and be happy to be fourth choice? No-one, that’s who. Hanley, who did a decent job at the start of last season as far as I can remember, is a reasonable fourth choice CB for a club newly promoted and with our finances. We’re unlucky to get two injuries in this area and once they are resolved the chances of another two at the same time are low. If it does happen Hanley or Amadou can stand in. 

 

Nuff said.

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Why do people think investing in a CB would have made a significant difference all of a sudden? 

I watched a very expensive Chelsea defence concede 4. I watched a very expensive Villa squad sit behind the ball for 90 minutes and still end up conceding 3.

This notion that spending some big money on a CB would suddenly mean we'd have turned Liverpool over is fanciful.

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Another thing to throw in. People keep using “it was Liverpool” in defence but let’s be honest - it was Liverpool barely breaking sweat. I felt they could have moved up a few gears - and relaxed second half. That is cause for concern but as others have said - a few more games will give a better idea.  

 

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Also, re-affirming what Bethnal said really but most Pundits were actually positive about Norwich post-match and thought we'd cause the teams around us a lot of problems and stand a good chance of staying up.

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Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

Another thing to throw in. People keep using “it was Liverpool” in defence but let’s be honest - it was Liverpool barely breaking sweat. I felt they could have moved up a few gears - and relaxed second half. That is cause for concern but as others have said - a few more games will give a better idea.  

 

It's not cause for concern because you're making things up. I doubt Liverpool were 'barely breaking sweat' in their opening fixture under the lights at Anfield. In fact, we created more chances than anyone else their last season, combined with us having a decent amount of possession and them having to actually chase us for the ball for a lot of the game.

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Posted (edited)

As the article I linked to in the “Interesting stats” thread says:

 

Looking at Premier League records this century, the lowest-scoring side has been relegated 74% of the time across those 19 seasons. On three other occasions, the team to finish with the fewest goals (and survived), suffered demotion the following year. Meanwhile, in each of the last four campaigns, a team has shipped at least 67 goals (1.76 per-game) and stayed up.

 

Yes, we need a decent defensive line-up, but we have one. To stay up we have to be able to score goals, or we’re back in Hughton-land. Hence the - for us - huge amount Webber was apparently prepared to spend on Claude-Maurice.

Edited by Nuff Said
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Anyone who is 'in the middle' like you DCB is spot on, because no body knows yet if our style will overcome enough teams to stay up or our 'lack of spending' will bite us in the a***. The vast majority of Norwich fans know  a lot more than the pundits about our Club, and believe we will stay up because of our recruitment/tactics etc as opposed to our green and yellow spectacles.

There are plenty of  'experts' (being paid a shed load of money) who haven't got the gumption to look beyond what a Club spends as the only definition of success at our level .

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Would this be the same Chris Sutton who predicted big things for Teemu Pukki?:classic_biggrin:

I'm with LDC let's just enjoy the ride, none of us know how this will pan out and that's what makes it such fun. Spending big would spoil that game. I actually found myself a bit disappointed when we paid a fee for someone this summer, it almost felt like cheating!

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The game went more or less as predicted, give or take.

Liverpool largely dominant throughout and able to slice our defence like a melon at times.

City playing bright, fearless attacking play which gained plaudits all-round, but also provided questions about the overall strategy involved.

We could actually have netted one or two more, but then so could Liverpool.

Hardly much of a yardstick for much of the season to come given the opponents, the venue and the occasion.

An exceptional learning curve for Farke and his team above all else.

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32 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

The game went more or less as predicted, give or take.

Liverpool largely dominant throughout and able to slice our defence like a melon at times.

City playing bright, fearless attacking play which gained plaudits all-round, but also provided questions about the overall strategy involved.

We could actually have netted one or two more, but then so could Liverpool.

Hardly much of a yardstick for much of the season to come given the opponents, the venue and the occasion.

An exceptional learning curve for Farke and his team above all else.

Well you certainly saw a very different game to me !

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5 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:
38 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

The game went more or less as predicted, give or take.  Liverpool largely dominant throughout and able to slice our defence like a melon at times.  City playing bright, fearless attacking play which gained plaudits all-round, but also provided questions about the overall strategy involved.  We could actually have netted one or two more, but then so could Liverpool.

Hardly much of a yardstick for much of the season to come given the opponents, the venue and the occasion. An exceptional learning curve for Farke and his team above all else.

Well you certainly saw a very different game to me !

Seems a good summary to me.  The last sentence for me is the most relevant - a huge learning curve for the players....and they learned very quickly after the torrid, difficult and unlucky first 45 minutes. We were dominated in several games last season and still came out on top and I think the second half against Liverpool was a big 45 minutes for us....resilient against the best and able to score and make chances.  Something to build on.

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3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Many fans are trusting in the positives of the Liverpool performance and buying into the “webberlution” notion; that we can stay up having spent next to nothing to bridge the gulf between champ and prem due to the quality of our play and talent already here. 

Yet most pundits and impartial friends, including Chris Sutton, are trusting in the negatives of the Liverpool performance and suggest we have been very naive to think we can spend so little and that we are nailed on for relegation despite being plucky. 

Which is it? One can argue all day about how bias/impartial pundits really are. 

I find myself in the middle. We have some fantastic talent at this club and a great manager but - once again- we have failed to back them on promotion and will leave it to January, by which time it is too late, to adequately strengthen. 

Liverpool showed me we can attack with the best of them. It also showed me that we should have purchased an experienced CB and moved Hanley on. Leaving zimmo and Klose as back up. The mayor also looked out of his depth etc.. so whilst my heart still says 15th my head, post Liverpool defensive display, is saying 20th

We will, of course, know more after Newcastle. One swallow does not a summer make and I put my hands up as one who underestimated this team after five games last season. But equally don’t underestimate how good even the “weaker” teams are in this division and last years goals against concerns me. 

 

 

Most of the pundits I've read have put forward a very balanced view with, if anything, almost a touch of over-optimism for the season. This from The Guardian:

5) Plucky Canaries choose to fight fire with fire

It is easy to criticise Norwich’s tactics at Anfield: against the European champions, the newcomers pursued an attacking approach that left them open, and were duly clouted. However, most weeks they will be playing sides far less good than Liverpool – for whom they still caused problems with their pacy and purposeful play. Teemu Pukki showed enough, both in front of goal and in general play, to suggest that he belongs in the top division, while Emi Buendía looks to have the touch and agility necessary to supply him. Promoted sides often pick up points at the start of the season, still grooved and confident from the previous one, and – with Newcastle, Chelsea and West Ham the next three games for Daniel Farke’s side before the first international break, Norwich now have a chance to announce themselves properly. Daniel Harris

 

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I prefer listening to posters and pundits who are a bit more balanced. I prefer the Sky bunch to the ‘Top 6 pleasers’ at the BBC. I still think we will have a great season, the only thing I feel can stop that is if we suffer a catastrophic amount of injuries, otherwise I think we’ll have a few eating their words in the months to come. 

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51 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Most of the pundits I've read have put forward a very balanced view with, if anything, almost a touch of over-optimism for the season. This from The Guardian:

5) Plucky Canaries choose to fight fire with fire

It is easy to criticise Norwich’s tactics at Anfield: against the European champions, the newcomers pursued an attacking approach that left them open, and were duly clouted. However, most weeks they will be playing sides far less good than Liverpool – for whom they still caused problems with their pacy and purposeful play. Teemu Pukki showed enough, both in front of goal and in general play, to suggest that he belongs in the top division, while Emi Buendía looks to have the touch and agility necessary to supply him. Promoted sides often pick up points at the start of the season, still grooved and confident from the previous one, and – with Newcastle, Chelsea and West Ham the next three games for Daniel Farke’s side before the first international break, Norwich now have a chance to announce themselves properly. Daniel Harris

 

It's probably down to my educashun, but is 'far less good' the correct term here?

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9 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

It's probably down to my educashun, but is 'far less good' the correct term here?

Clumsy but not I think ungrammatical!

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