How do we tweak our defensive fragilities

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

3 minutes ago, Grando said:

Dammit. I didn't see that. Think we missed a trick there.

I don't think so.

It would have probably ultimately panned out like the Marshall/Husband signing - a decent Championship player, but without the technically ability to fit into a Farke system. Ajayi would have looked comically bad in Norwich's midfield, in no way has the skill set to help play out from defence, or receive the ball under pressure.

[BobLoz3 492]

9 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Bielik is very close to a move to Derby for £10m apparently. He is also much more a centre back than a DM.

I think that will be very good business for them.

The fact we can be outbid by Championship teams is pretty mad, but I guess we all knew what was coming! (Not saying we were in for Bielik at all, but more that it's unlikely we'll spend big)

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

3 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

I think that will be very good business for them.

The fact we can be outbid by Championship teams is pretty mad, but I guess we all knew what was coming! (Not saying we were in for Bielik at all, but more that it's unlikely we'll spend big)

I think there would be scope to bid that much for a player Norwich really felt was worth it. I don't think Bielik is someone Norwich have ever considered as he is a centre back primarily, who has played DM in the lower leagues - much like Godfrey.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

5 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think there would be scope to bid that much for a player Norwich really felt was worth it. I don't think Bielik is someone Norwich have ever considered as he is a centre back primarily, who has played DM in the lower leagues - much like Godfrey.

I thought Billing would have been absolutely ideal, and also played under Webber at Huddersfield... if we had big money to spend on one player, any idea why not him? Every time I've seen him play he looks immense (and I've probably seen him play a dozen times or so).

[BobLoz3 492]

6 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think there would be scope to bid that much for a player Norwich really felt was worth it. I don't think Bielik is someone Norwich have ever considered as he is a centre back primarily, who has played DM in the lower leagues - much like Godfrey.

Yes and I think it also shows the extreme inflation on player rates. This is a guy who was on loan in League One last year. Ok, he was one of Charlton's stand out players, but is he worth that? I guess, in this current market, yes.

I know we could potentially spend a bit if we thought it was worth it. After seeing some of our defensive frailties last night I think it would be. Of course, we all know to get the kind of player we need we'd be paying mega money.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I thought Billing would have been absolutely ideal, and also played under Webber at Huddersfield... if we had big money to spend on one player, any idea why not him? Every time I've seen him play he looks immense (and I've probably seen him play a dozen times or so).

Don't know if Norwich were looking at him or not, but while Norwich can probably do one decent fee, wages are the issue and Bournemouth would always be in pole position there. Also, while a Premier League club, Norwich won't be hugely attractive to many players due to the perceived risk of relegation. Billing would consider Bournemouth a safer bet than Norwich I'm sure.

[Woodman 92]

2 years ago, Farke and Webber spotted our defensive frailties and brought in Hanley.  Last summer, when Remi Mathews didn't show confidence, Krul arrived.  I wonder if they're thinking the same this year? Are we all thinking the player in focus is Trybull and not Leitner who we need to upgrade in the centre of midfield?

[Nuff Said 5,118]

If Farke was considering three at the back, he would have tried it during pre-season.

 

Nuff said.

[Bonzo 198]

I don't think we should underestimate the difference their formation made last night 3412. 

We don't usually play teams with this arrangement. It gives them the opportunity to counter quickly because there is almost never a lone striker waiting for support when they win the ball.  4231 usually requires the ball to go wide or in behind or if it goes to the striker and he can't get through himself he must wait for support.

If the ball is turned over against teams playing 3412 the front players can engage the defenders immediately. They can play one twos through balls whatever with each other. There isn't a hold up. It also means that our defenders can't all go charging up the pitch because counters are very quick.  

Edited July 31, 2019 by Bonzo

[Yelloow Since 72 54]

57 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

If Farke was considering three at the back, he would have tried it during pre-season.

Nuff said.

He has used it several times, even when we only had two CB's available, switching Lewis to CB and bringing in Heise at LB. Even when playing a back four, Lewis often shifts into a CB position when the opposition have the ball and Aarons is still up the pitch. DF is more flexible than most people think.

[Petriix 2,834]

Yawn. We were not "defensively frail" last season; after the first few games only 3 teams conceded fewer than us and (of those) only Sheffield United had better than +1 goal difference.

We will obviously play a bit more cautiously at times this season. We don't have the funds to improve our defence. We will still play the same style and will likely have a few more chances to hit teams on the break. Preseason friendlies are not a good representation of how we will perform in the league. We won the league last season through hard work. Our players will work harder to track back and stop opposition attacks.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

11 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Yawn. We were not "defensively frail" last season; after the first few games only 3 teams conceded fewer than us and (of those) only Sheffield United had better than +1 goal difference.

We will obviously play a bit more cautiously at times this season. We don't have the funds to improve our defence. We will still play the same style and will likely have a few more chances to hit teams on the break. Preseason friendlies are not a good representation of how we will perform in the league. We won the league last season through hard work. Our players will work harder to track back and stop opposition attacks.

Norwich conceded more goals than any Championship champions ever. I think only 5 promoted clubs have ever conceded as many as Norwich. 

While Norwich may not compare that badly (if you discount a bunch of games including three teams who finished in the top 6) to the rest of the league, historically Norwich have one of the worst defences of a promoted team in the last 25 years. 

[baldy09 156]

How to improve on our defence is simple BUY two quality full backs -if not we are DOOMED I say DOOMED

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Most teams go up because of a great attack- a talisman striker on fire. 

But most stay in prem due to a solid defence. 

That has to be a worry. The standard of strikers at the top level will make mince meat out of some of the defensive displays we put in last season. And a few drubbings and confidence will go and we could look far more like the team that collapsed to millwall than the one that beat Villa at the end. 

Am genuinely surprised this obvious **** in the armour hasn’t been improved on. I would gave gone all out for a strong CB and a strong CDM to shore up a promising team. Let’s hope I know nothing and Webber has it right 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Ha ha - a word meaning a narrow opening has been banned as it can also be a racist term! I was using it in the innocent sense 

[Nuff Said 5,118]

4 hours ago, Yelloow Since 72 said:

He has used it several times, even when we only had two CB's available, switching Lewis to CB and bringing in Heise at LB. Even when playing a back four, Lewis often shifts into a CB position when the opposition have the ball and Aarons is still up the pitch. DF is more flexible than most people think.

Fair enough. Goes to show that the traditional x-y-z way of describing formations is probably a bit blunt. 

[Jobsworth Canary 168]

The quality of our offensive play means I don’t want anything happening that takes away from probably the best attacking football I have ever seen at the club

[Nuff Said 5,118]

1 hour ago, baldy09 said:

How to improve on our defence is simple BUY two quality full backs -if not we are DOOMED I say DOOMED

I realise you're joking, but there's a very decent point in there. Max, Ben and Jamal are highly rated and could be worth easily £60 million between them at the end of the season. So what is wrong? The second CB? Not at all. Coaching? Or is it just the inevitable result of the way we play?

 

Or... do we need a different defensive midfielder? Crazy idea!

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

I think we have the players (yes Tettey, Trybull etc ) but it's mostly we are a bit too gung ho. If we ignore 1 off bloopers we get caught out on the break (our poor corners I tend to dread as these always often lead to fast counter attacks) because we are over committed to attack. It gets even worse when we end up chasing a game as yesterday.

So we need a little more discipline and caution in attack and yes a Tettey figure holding back.

[Yelloow Since 72 54]

13 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think we have the players (yes Tettey, Trybull etc ) but it's mostly we are a bit too gung ho. If we ignore 1 off bloopers we get caught out on the break (our poor corners I tend to dread as these always often lead to fast counter attacks) because we are over committed to attack. It gets even worse when we end up chasing a game as yesterday.

So we need a little more discipline and caution in attack and yes a Tettey figure holding back.

Agree with this. We get far too gung go at times, especially when we go behind. To survive in the PL, we need to be able to quickly fall back into two ranks of four after losing the ball. Too often key players get caught up the pitch and we're then exposed. I'm sure DF is aware of this, but he needs to drill it into the players. Pukki does a good job harassing defenders and he needs another linking player helping, but the others should be back in defence quickly.

This needn't cut down on our attacking abilities, which will more often be Pukki, Buendia and Hernandez breaking quickly out of defence with a linking player like Leitner, Vrancic or McLean passing to whoever is best placed to carry it forward.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Yelloow Since 72

[El Convento 14]

On 31/07/2019 at 08:33, Branston Pickle said:

I’ve said all along that with the same personnel and same tactics/formation that leaked 50+ goals in the Champs, we are going to struggle.  IMO we’ve needed a new CB or DM all along, or at the very least a formation tweak, and that’s not changed. 

This ^

[Jim Smith 2,317]

My biggest worry with this is that the frailties I think may be exposed have been present throughout Farkes time at the club, they are not new and I don’t think solving them is about changing the personnel (apart from perhaps the defensive midfielder point).

[unique 435]

Outdo Sheffield United and play four roving centre-backs?

[Petriix 2,834]

I'm going to keep reiterating this: we were not defensively fragile last season; we played very attacking football which led to us scoring loads of goals and winning the league. An inevitable consequence was that we conceded more goals as well, but we got the balance spot on.

To concede fewer we would have to attack less. Unless you can find a magical CDM who can single handedly prevent an overload in defence when we lose possession with players committed forwards, we will either have to change the system or accept that we will concede goals. The plan is that we will continue to score more at the other end.

We struggled in the first 6 games and had the balance wrong. After that, only Sheffield United, Middlesbrough and Stoke conceded fewer. I don't understand what we could have done better and hope we continue in exactly the same mode this season. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

18 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'm going to keep reiterating this: we were not defensively fragile last season; we played very attacking football which led to us scoring loads of goals and winning the league. An inevitable consequence was that we conceded more goals as well, but we got the balance spot on.

To concede fewer we would have to attack less. Unless you can find a magical CDM who can single handedly prevent an overload in defence when we lose possession with players committed forwards, we will either have to change the system or accept that we will concede goals. The plan is that we will continue to score more at the other end.

We struggled in the first 6 games and had the balance wrong. After that, only Sheffield United, Middlesbrough and Stoke conceded fewer. I don't understand what we could have done better and hope we continue in exactly the same mode this season. 

You can say it as many times as you like, but only 5 teams have ever conceded more and been promoted. Norwich are going up with the worst goals against tally for a Champion ever. 

 

[king canary 7,599]

1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

You can say it as many times as you like, but only 5 teams have ever conceded more and been promoted. Norwich are going up with the worst goals against tally for a Champion ever. 

 

I was surprised to see though on that's statsbomb piece that we had one of the lowest xg against last season- surely this points more to us conceding from chances we shouldn't have rather than just defending poorly.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

I was surprised to see though on that's statsbomb piece that we had one of the lowest xg against last season- surely this points more to us conceding from chances we shouldn't have rather than just defending poorly.

Yeah, think it points towards Krul a little bit. 

It was a pretty bad year for defences all around in the Championship last season though - a .94 against per game would normally be around 6th or 7th in the Championship.

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

You can say it as many times as you like, but only 5 teams have ever conceded more and been promoted. Norwich are going up with the worst goals against tally for a Champion ever. 

 

Do you genuinely believe that we could have done better?

Do you really think that buying one new CDM and playing the same system would make a significant difference?

In the 27 years I've been following the club I've never seen such good football from Norwich. We have the best defenders I've ever seen wear the shirt. I don't see the problem.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

Do you genuinely believe that we could have done better?

Do you really think that buying one new CDM and playing the same system would make a significant difference?

In the 27 years I've been following the club I've never seen such good football from Norwich. We have the best defenders I've ever seen wear the shirt. I don't see the problem.

I believe Norwich play a very expansive, open style - which means they conceded a lot of chances. This resulted in conceding a lot of goals last season and if this continues into the Prem then they will concede even more goals. Last season Norwich had a fantastic attack so could outscore many teams to cover this - 4-3 against Millwall, 3-3 against Forest etc. Doing that in the Prem again gets harder.

I think the current Norwich defence has a huge amount of potential, however they are far from the finished product and there are often small mistakes that get punished.

Will one new defensive midfielder cure all the problems? No. Would it help? Probably. 

I think upgrading Krul with Fahrmann could also have a really positive effect of the number of goals conceded. Character doesn't stop shots.

I don't want Norwich to go defensive and curb their attacking excess - but to say 'there is no defensive fragility' is to ignore the obvious truth. 

[king canary 7,599]

2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Do you genuinely believe that we could have done better?

Do you really think that buying one new CDM and playing the same system would make a significant difference?

In the 27 years I've been following the club I've never seen such good football from Norwich. We have the best defenders I've ever seen wear the shirt. I don't see the problem.

One fairly obvious area to improve would be set piece defending. We conceded 17 goals from set pieces last season, joint 5th in the league.