Tour de France 2019

[Mr Angry 1,545]

I’ve thought for a long time that the TdF isn’t necessarily won by the best rider now, it’s won by the best team. I reckon that Indurain was probably the last true great rider-since then (with the possible exception of Il Pirata 😄) it’s been the team that has been able to protect its leader from his rivals that has come out on top. Anyone agree?

[Grumpy 122]

One of my most anticipated events of the sporting year.I love it.Not just for the sheer excitement of the racing but for the whole razzmatazz that the tour brings.The images on TV are at times nothing short of spectacular and watching from the vantage point of a helicopter gives a view of the French countryside that is truly magical at times.

This year it doesn't appear to have the same impact in regards to 'named' riders that you can identify with and i do find that I tend not to listen to much of the commentary as it is somewhat technical and confusing in terms of tactics and identification of riders.

As for having been to the race.In 1994 we went to the two stages in Brighton and Portsmouth.At the Brighton race we walked up Ditching Beacon (my wife was very heavily pregnant at the time ) and then went the next day to Portsmouth to watch the ride out.At that time the stand out sprinter was a guy called Abdoujaparov and boy could he motor.

In 2014 we went to Yorkshire and took in the two days that the Tour spent there and then watched the ride out from Cambridge on the third day. 

[Mr Angry 1,545]

11 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

.At that time the stand out sprinter was a guy called Abdoujaparov and boy could he motor.

Did you see his spectacular crash on the Champs Elysees? Can’t remember what year it was, it was horrifying.

[canarydan23 4,060]

45 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

the last true great rider

The last true great GC rider, I think (and hope!) you mean.

[Mr Angry 1,545]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

The last true great GC rider, I think (and hope!) you mean.

Exactly. 😄

[canarydan23 4,060]

Not accusing anyone here, but most British cyclists are far too Grand Tour obsessed when it comes to cycling. In Belgium, the Tour, Vuelta and Giro are secondary to the one-day races in Spring. And there have been a few greats in that arena since Indurain; Fabian Cancellara and Tom Boonen are the first two who spring to mind.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I’ve thought for a long time that the TdF isn’t necessarily won by the best rider now, it’s won by the best team. I reckon that Indurain was probably the last true great rider-since then (with the possible exception of Il Pirata ) it’s been the team that has been able to protect its leader from his rivals that has come out on top. Anyone agree?

While much of that is true, there have been some terrific individual moments when Froome has stunned his rivals with an individual break. And as the teams do manage to keep their GC rider in touch any big break can essentially win the Tour. Was it 2013 when Froome broke them on Ventoux?

[canarydan23 4,060]

Lol.

Froome 2013 on the Ventoux. Until he "did a Landis" at the 2018 Giro, that was the most unbelievable thing since the Lance Armstrong days when you look at his physiological data that Sky confirmed as being legit...

...the bloke attacks one of the sports most talented climbers, up one of the sports most iconic climbs, upping his power significantly and his heart-rate barely changes.

I doubt it'll gain much traction here, but this was the moment my fears were confirmed and that Sky are this generations US Postal.

 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

You need to look 40 minutes onwards for the inhuman part.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Not accusing anyone here, but most British cyclists are far too Grand Tour obsessed when it comes to cycling. In Belgium, the Tour, Vuelta and Giro are secondary to the one-day races in Spring. And there have been a few greats in that arena since Indurain; Fabian Cancellara and Tom Boonen are the first two who spring to mind.

In Belgium and Holland, they love Cyclo Cross and now it has become a great introduction to Road Racing. Van Aert had never entered more than a 7 day event. Not many of our lads and lasses compete in that at the top level.

I don't think Brits are obsessed about the Tour etc, I think we just prefer the longer events where every terrain and every distance is used. And yes, team riding has become more essential than ever because the top riders are pretty equally matched. Maybe the last true individual rider to win was LeMond.

And of course, the race is a good 1000K shorter than it used to be.

 

[Mr Angry 1,545]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Not accusing anyone here, but most British cyclists are far too Grand Tour obsessed when it comes to cycling. In Belgium, the Tour, Vuelta and Giro are secondary to the one-day races in Spring. And there have been a few greats in that arena since Indurain; Fabian Cancellara and Tom Boonen are the first two who spring to mind.

Yep, Cancellara was class.

[Il Pirata 249]

20 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

True, but they've not needed to yet either. I expect things to change in the mountains. Kwiatkowski and Poels are effectively super domestiques who'd be team leaders in their own right at other teams. 

G certainly seems to find himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Both crashes we're not his fault, but we seem to be saying that at every Grand Tour. Bar the crash(s), he looks strong. Great on the Planche des Belles Filles, and just as impressive getting back on after his crash with Woods. I think G has shown enough that he is the one to beat. You look at the other GC contenders, and most have already lost a minute or two to G and Bernal (and far more in some cases) which is a sign Ineos are riding well. They just don't lose silly seconds here and there like the others do. 

Pinot's current lead is the direct result of G's crash on stage 8 which he took full 'advantage' of. More should have done the same. 

 

 

As shown yesterday! Another cracking stage.. GC could be done and dusted before we hit the mountains! 

[Il Pirata 249]

17 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

You need to look 40 minutes onwards for the inhuman part.

Your right to ask the question. The problem with the Lance Armstrong era is that not enough people asked the obvious questions. 

However, I believe Froome is a 'clean' athlete. Granted, the definition of clean is up for debate. I think boundaries are pushed, but ultimately he's stayed within the rules. Doping is a never ending debate, but certainly the regulations are the best they've ever been, particularly in Cycling. 

I do find the public perception (not aimed at yourself canarydan23) of  doping in cycling very interesting. People are very quick to vilify cyclists who dope, or have doped. But other athletes in different sports are immune to it. Boxing gets a bit of attention, but the punishments are embarrassing and do nothing to discourage the fighter. The lack of punishment devalues the offence, making it less serious and more accepted by the masses. It's not an even playing field. 

Unless anti-doping is governed by a centralised power, and funded proportionately by all sports, it will never change. Too much vested interest. 

 

 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

I think the biggest issue with perception over doping in cycling is the available gains. For sure, drugs do give an advantage in things like football, tennis, boxing etc, but a 6/10 boxer or tennis player is not going to knock out or beat a 9/10 opponent the vast majority of the time even with all the chemical benefits on offer.

With endurance sports, and road cycling is easily the most high profile example of that, the benefits are astronomical. If I was being mischievous, I might use the example of a cyclist who plods around to 85th in the Tour of Poland (26 minutes behind a man who in a few years will be carrying water bottles for you) with palmares that have a highlight of a silver medal at the national time trial championships and a handful of stage wins at events full of amateurs and semi-pros, who has just been told that with your contract expiring you won't get a new one if things don't improve, suddenly only 5 weeks later is standing 2nd on the podium of a Grand Tour, ahead of a cyclist about the become Britain's first Tour de France winner and behind a man who it now appears was juiced up. Surely that's an example plucked straight from my head, it's too illogical to be a true story, isn't it?!

I do believe cycling is obviously far, far cleaner than it was and I wouldn't be surprised if the levels of substance abuse is at a level comparable with other sports. However, it remains that drug cheats in other sports don't get the same gains as professional road racers so it is less of an issue in my eyes. Whether or not Chris Froome has broken rules or just danced extremely close to the line I don't know, but I'm utterly convinced he's cheating (whether ethically or legally) in some form. It's curious that no one has any recollection of his asthma until his Lazurus-esque rise from jobbing pro staring down the barrel of unemployment to one of the sport's Top 5 most successful GC riders in history for one thing. But I don't see how that rise can only be fueled by the occasional unnecessary pump on an asthma inhaler, I'm sure there is something more sophisticated and more illegal going on, even if it isn't as brazen as the blood transfusions on the team bus Lance Armstrong and his team used to employ.

[Il Pirata 249]

Well Mr Walsh, you certainly are very cynical, and perhaps for good reason! 

Froome's rise was sudden, sure. But he was a late starter in Cycling and didn't turn pro until the age of 22. Therefore it is reasonable to expect a sudden upward curve in his mid twenties as he improved. Particularly under the stewardship of a better team. There are other examples of meteoric rises. Away from cycling, Gareth Bale went from average to world beater in a little more than 12 months.

But of course there could be something more sinister at play. The Jiffy bag scandal and more recent Salbutamol case have put a big blotch on Wiggo, Froome and Team Sky (Ineos). Its frustrating that questions were left unanswered, but I'm reasonably convinced these were individual cases pushing the boundaries of the law, rather than full scale systematic illegal doping. But I don't blame anyone for thinking differently. 

I do disagree with the perception of available gains though. Any stimulate that can take concentration levels above what is seemingly normal, can give a massive advantage in any skill based sport too. So focusing on pure endurance is only half of it. 

As for a 6/10 boxer beating a 9/10... well it might not happen but what about the time it does and the 6/10 boxer becomes 10/10 and inflicts a life threatening injury or worse, due to the sustained power he/she is able to produce round after round? Doping in boxing is dangerous to others and not just the individual carrying out the offense. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

I completely agree, cheating is cheating, I was merely proffering an opinion as to why the stigma has stuck so steadfastly to cycling as opposed to other sports. Operation Puerto revealed over 200 instances of doped athletes. Only 60 of those were cyclists, many of whom have been named and punished, can you name another athlete from another sport who received punishment as a result of it? I certainly can't.

And I don't think the Bale comparison holds much weight, he was never really average. My Southampton supporting mate I met at UEA was raving about him when he broke through and he was signed by Tottenham at 18 years old for a fee that eventually rose to £10 million, which was a big old sum back in 2007. Ok, perhaps it wasn't guaranteed that he would end up having the career he did, but the potential was always there and many thought he was destined for a career at the top. Absolutely nobody thought that of Chris Froome, and for very good reason. And Froome's transformation took place over a fortnight! There were two weeks between Froome struggling up hills in Poland to him tearing up mountains in the Vuelta a Espana.

My theory is that Sky were already practicing some dark arts and it's quite possible Chris Froome was resisting them. After a poor showing in pretty much every outing in a Sky or Barloworld jersey, he was told after Poland to start searching for a new team. Desperate not to to do, he signed up to the Program and saw the benefits in an instant. The bilharzia probably gave the Sky doctors a useful opportunity to disguise whatever they did to him in those days to instigate the Damascene conversion and they very quickly had a doctor diagnose him with asthma.

At the end of the day, they were obviously trying something with Wiggins and he was a proven contender having finished 4th (3rd really as he was behind Armstrong) in the 2009 TDF. So at the very least they've been going down the TUE, salbutamol, fake asthma route with Froome, but my suspicion is that his previous medical history allowed their doctors and science guys to be a touch more elaborate with their design. And I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if his "doing a Landis" in the 2018 Giro involved a blood bag. That was on the same feasibility level as his 2011 Vuelta and his steady heart rate attack up the Ventoux in 2013. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by canarydan23

[Il Pirata 249]

On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 12:24, canarydan23 said:

I completely agree, cheating is cheating, I was merely proffering an opinion as to why the stigma has stuck so steadfastly to cycling as opposed to other sports. Operation Puerto revealed over 200 instances of doped athletes. Only 60 of those were cyclists, many of whom have been named and punished, can you name another athlete from another sport who received punishment as a result of it? I certainly can't.

And I don't think the Bale comparison holds much weight, he was never really average. My Southampton supporting mate I met at UEA was raving about him when he broke through and he was signed by Tottenham at 18 years old for a fee that eventually rose to £10 million, which was a big old sum back in 2007. Ok, perhaps it wasn't guaranteed that he would end up having the career he did, but the potential was always there and many thought he was destined for a career at the top. Absolutely nobody thought that of Chris Froome, and for very good reason. And Froome's transformation took place over a fortnight! There were two weeks between Froome struggling up hills in Poland to him tearing up mountains in the Vuelta a Espana.

My theory is that Sky were already practicing some dark arts and it's quite possible Chris Froome was resisting them. After a poor showing in pretty much every outing in a Sky or Barloworld jersey, he was told after Poland to start searching for a new team. Desperate not to to do, he signed up to the Program and saw the benefits in an instant. The bilharzia probably gave the Sky doctors a useful opportunity to disguise whatever they did to him in those days to instigate the Damascene conversion and they very quickly had a doctor diagnose him with asthma.

At the end of the day, they were obviously trying something with Wiggins and he was a proven contender having finished 4th (3rd really as he was behind Armstrong) in the 2009 TDF. So at the very least they've been going down the TUE, salbutamol, fake asthma route with Froome, but my suspicion is that his previous medical history allowed their doctors and science guys to be a touch more elaborate with their design. And I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if his "doing a Landis" in the 2018 Giro involved a blood bag. That was on the same feasibility level as his 2011 Vuelta and his steady heart rate attack up the Ventoux in 2013. 

You make a good argument, and given cycling's dark past I can't criticise you for being sceptical. But sometimes you have to believe what you see or you'll never be able to enjoy it? 

I did notice your praise for Cancellara. You do remember his 'inhuman' attack don't you?

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

19 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

You make a good argument, and given cycling's dark past I can't criticise you for being sceptical. But sometimes you have to believe what you see or you'll never be able to enjoy it? 

I did notice your praise for Cancellara. You do remember his 'inhuman' attack don't you?

 

2010 Vlaanderen? I suspect that was more mechanical than chemical assistance. I also suspect that the hidden motor side of things has been exploited more than we currently know, perhaps even during the Postal era. Stick Ryder Hesjedal motor into YouTube to see some hilariously incriminating footage from the 2014 Vuelta. And to further damage Cancellara's cause, someone has created a video where Bradley Wiggins is asked about mechanical doping and is happy to give a lengthy response (though questionably makes an argument that he understands why people blood dope but not cheating with a motor) whereas Cancellara gets very terse about being repeatedly questioned on the matter.

I've been following cycling a long time, I've learned to enjoy it despite not believing what I see! But I've not mastered the art and there are times I just cannot comprehend it and generally switch off. After Froome's Landis, I actually refused to watch the Tour several weeks later because I was still p*ssed off at what I had seen, but the fact that the eminently likable Thomas was given a chance to win it (despite not being favoured over Froome until past the halfway stage) dragged me back into it for the last week and a half.

[Il Pirata 249]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

2010 Vlaanderen? I suspect that was more mechanical than chemical assistance. I also suspect that the hidden motor side of things has been exploited more than we currently know, perhaps even during the Postal era. Stick Ryder Hesjedal motor into YouTube to see some hilariously incriminating footage from the 2014 Vuelta. And to further damage Cancellara's cause, someone has created a video where Bradley Wiggins is asked about mechanical doping and is happy to give a lengthy response (though questionably makes an argument that he understands why people blood dope but not cheating with a motor) whereas Cancellara gets very terse about being repeatedly questioned on the matter.

I've been following cycling a long time, I've learned to enjoy it despite not believing what I see! But I've not mastered the art and there are times I just cannot comprehend it and generally switch off. After Froome's Landis, I actually refused to watch the Tour several weeks later because I was still p*ssed off at what I had seen, but the fact that the eminently likable Thomas was given a chance to win it (despite not being favoured over Froome until past the halfway stage) dragged me back into it for the last week and a half.

Yeah that's the one, and a couple of other instances with Cancellara too. A sudden turn of pace during a TT, and another in Paris Roubaix. Definitely motor doping the allegation here. I've seen that Vuelta footage, basically the cranks appear to spin on there own after a crash. I've read explanations rubbishing the motor theory though. I think all bikes are X-rayed now, so pretty much impossible for anyone to get away with this, at least in the GTs and major races such as the spring classics. Did you see the bizarre incident recently with Roglic and his missing bike during the Giro? A reasonable explanation in the end, but just goes to show how much teams and riders are scrutinised and constantly having to defend themselves. 

Good looking stage today.. into the Pyrenees. I'll be leaving for France tomorrow in preparation for the Etape on Sunday! Wonder if they'll have x-ray machines there.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Thomas ought to take a bit of time back from Allaphillipe today. And hopefully increase on the rest. If he takes a fair bit out of Bernal I wonder if he will become Geraint's domestique in the Alps.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Thomas ought to take a bit of time back from Allaphillipe today

Yes, he ought to have.

Not quite sure what I'm seeing here...

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

5 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes, he ought to have.

Not quite sure what I'm seeing here...

Hmmm

[SwindonCanary 455]

Julian Alaphilippe  is on to watch in the future, hopefully Thomas will take yellow tomorrow    🤞

Edited July 19, 2019 by SwindonCanary

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Maybe Ineos have to think of different tactics than keep close the first two weeks and we will win ii in the Alps. Alaphillipe showed yesterday that he has the tenacity to win stages and without the support from his team.

[canarydan23 4,060]

It's certainly not his style, but if I was Alaphilippe I'd just use the Ineos tactics against them. They are going to set a fast pace up the mountain, just sit behind them and hope your legs (and whatever else he may or may not have helping him) hold. He has shown in the time trial he has the endurance to match and exceed Geraint Thomas.

I still don't buy what I saw yesterday, but it could make an exciting end to the Tour. Either that or Alaphilippe will just be too dominant. If he doesn't win it this year, then you can bet your last dollar that next year's Tour will be "experimental" and there will be no high mountain stage and a couple of short but very technical time trials.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Well that is probably the single toughest climb and Alaphillipe has shown he has the stamina and will to win. 

Thomas is really going to have to have a word with the Ineos Psychologist to get over the last two days.

We all had him picked to be in the lead after today and now he is over two minutes behind.

Ineos just sat behind Movistar all day and never put pressure on Alaphillipe. And they folded before him. I think they have to try and ride the finish out of him as he seems to find extra when he is is still in with a chance.

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

What a stage that was ! Getting interesting now, whether Alaphilippe has started to blow up we’ll find out over the next few days but with seconds splitting the next five riders it has to be the best tour for a few years

[SwindonCanary 455]

Thomas said he had more in his legs, which shows yesterday was just an off day for him. I'm beginning to think there's something suspicious about Alaphilippe, He's made a big advance since last season when he was a one day specialist, to have the stamina to be at the top of the tour. Time trial top and the next day second up the Tourmalet.  Alaphilippe once again defied expectations !

[canarydan23 4,060]

Incredible stage, good one for Il Pirata to have watched. All set up for a great final week. 

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

NCFC should have some cycling jerseys made