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pete

Is VAR such a good idea?

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VAR is not conclusive. It may well some decisions correct or vice versa but it is not conclusive.

The England Women's match against Sweden proved that. The referee was asked to have a look at it. Having given the goal the referee had to be convinced that her decision was incorrect. And I cannot see how she was convinced White had handled the ball.

But we are stuck with it because people (meaning the big clubs) have said that football is so important that the right decisions have to be made.

I think I preferred the controversy.

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3 hours ago, Sparta Plastic said:

This is what concerns me - a player is deemed offside because their boot is beyond the last defender in the freeze frame, but this all depends on the point in the two players’ strides at which they freeze it.

This is much the same as my point in that you cannot tell the precise point that the ball leaves the passer’s foot - so it is always down to the point at which they freeze the footage, which may be a split-second too late.  ‘Paper thin’ decisions should always go the way of the attacking side.

Edited by Branston Pickle

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2 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

This is much the same as my point in that you cannot tell the precise point that the ball leaves the passer’s foot - so it is always down to the point at which they freeze the footage, which may be a split-second too late.  ‘Paper thin’ decisions should always go the way of the attacking side.

Which is why I think a review system such as cricket should be brought in. The referee/linesman makes their decision on the pitch and only if the opposing team thinks there’s been an error should it be reviewed. If inconclusive or a very tight offside call, the initial referee/linesman decision should stand. 2 reviews like cricket, retained if the review is successful.

At the moment the expectation is that VAR will clear up all errors and there’ll be a perfectly officiated game. That’s never going to be the case with so many subjective decisions to make. Add to that the closeness of some offside calls and VAR could just add to the controversy. At least with a certain amount of reviews, it keeps the referees in control but gives teams the opportunity to review a decision if they feel it’s clearly wrong.

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2 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

Which is why I think a review system such as cricket should be brought in. The referee/linesman makes their decision on the pitch and only if the opposing team thinks there’s been an error should it be reviewed. If inconclusive or a very tight offside call, the initial referee/linesman decision should stand. 2 reviews like cricket, retained if the review is successful.

But what if it's a very tight penalty call, the VAR says no but the team that reviewed it insists it was a wrong decision, then the opposition gets a tight call go in their favour? You'd have the same arguments as you get now but worse.

In tennis and cricket, all decisions are matter of fact (although with snicko and hotspot in cricket, sometimes it's a bit inconclusive) so there isn't really a problem there. But in football, the review system wouldn't work because a lot of decisions still come down to one person's opinion anyway. Also, two wrong reviews per game would lead to lots of frivolous reviews in the final ten minutes if the teams still have reviews remaining. You'd get a lot more disruption.

VAR is best left as it is. The obvious errors are overturned and the borderline decisions that could go either way stay with the ref. At least this way there's as little disruption as possible, and arguments are at least minimised.

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They should just impose a time limit. 2 minutes to make a decision and the VAR official can call back the ref within that time if they've missed something obvious...

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Did you see the penalty award to US today? Do you think it was a penalty and if so why? Ref didn't give it until VAR team called her to review. As it happens the Dutch defender's foot was high to try and intercept the ball and caught the US attacker, but only after the ball had hit the US player and was bouncing out of play. So accidental contact, and no bearing on the outcome of the attack. Yet VAR still gives it... I think the US got 5 VAR penalties overall in this World Cup. If VAR hadn't ruled so often in their favor - and with so many weak fouls - they could have been knocked out by Spain, France or England before they even got to this final with Holland.  

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5 hours ago, Surfer said:

Did you see the penalty award to US today? Do you think it was a penalty and if so why? Ref didn't give it until VAR team called her to review. As it happens the Dutch defender's foot was high to try and intercept the ball and caught the US attacker, but only after the ball had hit the US player and was bouncing out of play. So accidental contact, and no bearing on the outcome of the attack. Yet VAR still gives it... I think the US got 5 VAR penalties overall in this World Cup. If VAR hadn't ruled so often in their favor - and with so many weak fouls - they could have been knocked out by Spain, France or England before they even got to this final with Holland.  

....and there we have it. What I've been saying all along, if you think that VAR will save us from the ridiculous decisions that have plagued us in the past at this level, you're going to be disappointed. 

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Unfortunately VAR is only marginally better than the person reviewing it, but hopefully the prem refs will lose some of the big club bias when they aren't actually under the direct influence of the fans. I do think that showing it on the big screen whilst it's being reviewed is wrong and it should only be shown to show why a decision has been reversed, if at all...

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The very fact you're all arguing the toss over the England 'goal' from 66 proves to me that VAR is an absolutely terrible idea. Ok, admittedly, that one would have been solved by goal line tech but hear me out as (I think) the point I'm trying to make still stands...

Why? You ask... Well, it is because it will stil be down to an individual (referee) and their assistants to make the call. Some may see things in a different way to others (just as we're all doing here). I don't know who has the final say, or if it comes down to a consensus (3 vs 2 or something) but the issue remains.

England Women were given a penalty (which Houghton then missed) for a foul in the box. This was against the USA. I watched that over and over, just as the officials did, and I didn't think that was anywhere near a penalty. The contact was minimal if any at all.

I think goal line tech is a good thing and essential. But I agree that VAR takes some of the human element out of the game and it makes me feel a bit weird about potentially celebrating a goal which then gets chalked off.. etc.

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11 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

England Women were given a penalty (which Houghton then missed) for a foul in the box. This was against the USA. I watched that over and over, just as the officials did, and I didn't think that was anywhere near a penalty. The contact was minimal if any at all.

As she was about to shoot, her leg is clipped by the defender meaning she then missed the ball. Clear penalty.

Overall for decisions like this and offsides, VAR will be a good thing as it will eradicate the obvious errors that are all too frequent, however there will still be debate and the fact VAR doesn’t clear up every decision will cause more controversy.

Edited by Fiery Zac

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27 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

As she was about to shoot, her leg is clipped by the defender meaning she then missed the ball. Clear penalty.

Overall for decisions like this and offsides, VAR will be a good thing as it will eradicate the obvious errors that are all too frequent, however there will still be debate and the fact VAR doesn’t clear up every decision will cause more controversy.

And there we go again... Everyone sees things differently! Ah... well it seems as though we'll have to just deal with it so may as well get on with it hey!?

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21 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

As she was about to shoot, her leg is clipped by the defender meaning she then missed the ball. Clear penalty.

Overall for decisions like this and offsides, VAR will be a good thing as it will eradicate the obvious errors that are all too frequent, however there will still be debate and the fact VAR doesn’t clear up every decision will cause more controversy.

And that for me is why VAR is worth it.

You'll never solve the 50-50s and the borderline decisions that could go either way. Those will cause arguments and debates either with or without VAR. So just leave those with the ref and get on with the game.

As long as VAR rids us of the shockers, it's doing its job.

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The thing is it’s definitely being used so good or bad it’ll be interesting and certainly bring about some debates, which in itself will be entertaining. 😉

Edited by Indy

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I think some unfortunate fan folk (unless they leave early), may well miss their home-bound transport of trains, planes and automobiles.....Oh, and Strictly 😉 ......with the probable added on extra time after the VAR replays and decision making.....I'll just have to play catch up in the pub when I get there.....

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A worthless pile of old bollox driven by advertisers playing on the stupidity of the gormless.

A belief that decisions (or calls if the ref has a phone handy) are always objective and so can be correctly ruled by having another look - which is absolute sh.yte as so much is open to interpretation ie subjective.

Is a keeper pratting about with taking a goalkick in the first 5 minutes, as liable for a yellow card as for the sam action in the final few minutes of a game ? What determines a yellow card ? The actual challenge which is not that bad or the fact this is the fourth time after previously being warned ?

In both tennis and cricket the game is routinely 'stopped' and pretty much everything is definite either way - almost the complete opposite in football.

Likewise we have the absurd ruling that " if the player's arms extend beyond a "natural silhouette", handball will be given". Has anyone seen a footballer or anyone running in this fashion, bar 'chicken runners' on a treadmill at a gym ?

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I predict Shearer will be having a field day on MoTD. What with the new Handball ruling and now VAR, it should just about ruin football for good. I have always maintained if its not available to lower leagues then apart from GLT, endless replays of clear and obvious (???) will just add more confusion for the fans.

VAR just ends up with a different opinion (although it could be the same outcome). I like(d) the opinions of the 3 officials -  mostly they're right, a few times they're incorrect or didn't see it. Its all part of the game.

Enough!! I think NCFC will benefit overall from VAR, I just don't think its good for the game........

Edited by Foxy2600
spell

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1 hour ago, Foxy2600 said:

I predict Shearer will be having a field day on MoTD. What with the new Handball ruling and now VAR, it should just about ruin football for good. I have always maintained if its not available to lower leagues then apart from GLT, endless replays of clear and obvious (???) will just add more confusion for the fans.

VAR just ends up with a different opinion (although it could be the same outcome). I like(d) the opinions of the 3 officials -  mostly they're right, a few times they're incorrect or didn't see it. Its all part of the game.

Enough!! I think NCFC will benefit overall from VAR, I just don't think its good for the game........

I suppose it depends on whether you want to watch a game where the laws are applied to their fullest extent or not.

Anyway, 64% of 28,000 fans from EFL teams want VAR and goal-line technology to be introduced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48949073

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I think VAR can prevent some clear mistakes.  For example we've seen cases where the ball was clearly over the line but no goal was given, e.g. Lampard had a goal not given vs Germany in the World cup before last where the replay made it clear it was over the line.

 

Some decisions will remain debatable which shouldn't be a surprise, given discussions over the years after fans have seen replays numerous times and still can't agree about the correct decision.  But VAT can cut out some mistakes so is a good thing.


But I agree some sort of a challenge system with a ration for each team would be good to reduce the current number of appeals.

 

For the England penalty, although the contact was minimal, it did clearly knock her foot when she was swinging it forward to strike the ball and therefore had the effect that she missed her contact.  So even minimal contact can be very important, if it's contact with the right (or wrong, as it were) place ! 100% correct penalty, just a shame it was taken so poorly.

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I think VAR should have been tried in the lower Leagues first, let's face it, nobody cares if Fleetwood get a draw with 1p5wich because of a decision by VAR. 

However, if Man U fail to beat Blades or Brighton at OT because VAR found against them, it'll be in the papers for a week, Gary Neville et al will be calling for it to be scrapped and there'll be talk of a rematch. 

It's bent and they know it....

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VAR is a great idea, it's just been very poorly executed at times so far. It'll get better, I'm sure

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42 minutes ago, AJ said:

VAR is a great idea, it's just been very poorly executed at times so far. It'll get better, I'm sure

At what cost though? If we're relegated because of a dodgy decision, will it still be a great idea?

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10 hours ago, splendidrush said:

At what cost though? If we're relegated because of a dodgy decision, will it still be a great idea?

In theory though, it won't be a dodgy decision. VAR is coming in to stop those dodgy decisions from happening...

HOWEVER, referred penalty decisions will still come down to interpretation, albeit from someone watching the incident again and again on a TV.

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17 minutes ago, Woodman said:

 

HOWEVER, referred penalty decisions will still come down to interpretation, albeit from someone watching the incident again and again on a TV.

Exactly, which means we're just as vulnerable to the Premiership bias as before. You'll notice that I'm saying this in advance of the new season, conspiracy theorist? Guilty, but when it happens, and it will, nobody can accuse me of sour grapes. 

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Indeed.  I eagerly await the first VAR penalty given against Liverpool at Anfield, or Man United at Old Trafford.

 

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15 minutes ago, Woodman said:

Indeed.  I eagerly await the first VAR penalty given against Liverpool at Anfield, or Man United at Old Trafford.

 

Or overturned, or goal not given for offside! Why are so many still whining about VAR?

Its happening for the good of the game and about time too. It’s been around in other sports for years and it’s working well enough.

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35 minutes ago, Indy said:

Or overturned, or goal not given for offside! Why are so many still whining about VAR?

Its happening for the good of the game and about time too. It’s been around in other sports for years and it’s working well enough.

... because there is little evidence that VAR will be 'for the good of the game' Football has an atrocious record for corruption, from Bobby Moore's apparent jewelry theft in Mexico, to Maradona's hand of God, Henry's hand of frog against Ireland in which the FAI took a backhander not to appeal. The collapse of Italian football, the Qatari bid for the World Cup, I could go on. If you think that the money men, who run football are going to allow technology to stop them keeping control,  then I look forward to hearing you explain away some of the decisions that we've got coming next season. 

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6 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

... because there is little evidence that VAR will be 'for the good of the game' Football has an atrocious record for corruption, from Bobby Moore's apparent jewelry theft in Mexico, to Maradona's hand of God, Henry's hand of frog against Ireland in which the FAI took a backhander not to appeal. The collapse of Italian football, the Qatari bid for the World Cup, I could go on. If you think that the money men, who run football are going to allow technology to stop them keeping control,  then I look forward to hearing you explain away some of the decisions that we've got coming next season. 

I’ve had enough trying to explanations from the last 30 years of wrong decisions against us, penalties not given.......now we have technology being put in place to hopefully eliminate this and yet some find fault before it’s used!

Lets wait and see, American Football, Rugby Cricket all benefit from review process.

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31 minutes ago, Indy said:

I’ve had enough trying to explanations from the last 30 years of wrong decisions against us, penalties not given.......now we have technology being put in place to hopefully eliminate this and yet some find fault before it’s used!

Lets wait and see, American Football, Rugby Cricket all benefit from review process.

I admire your optimism Indy.👍

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