My revised Deano thinking

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

Until recently I thought Deano would definitely be off.  Whoever bid the most in January (even if it was £5M) was where he''d end up.  I''m not so sure now.  It''s obvious we turned down big money in August for him.  It seems we''re holding out for £7M+ now and if we don''t get, I think he''ll stay.  The club keep denying newspaper stories around the £6M mark.  Worthy keeps saying the "price must be right" and then the story concludes that this will be around "3 times" what we paid for him.  Now if we accepted £6M, the board would look pretty stupid and have to own up to the fans that they caved.

If a club doesn''t match our valuation, I really think we''ll tell Deano he has to stay.  At the end of the day he has no power whatsoever.  He''s under contract with us for a long time (on good money I''d assume).  He signed that contract extenstion a few months ago.  No-one forced him too.  He also doesn''t seem like the kind of player to do a Francis; go on stike and demand a move.  His agent is his dad or uncle or something like that, so I don''t think he''ll be splashing his name around the tabloids looking for a move.

At the end of the day, Deano is our player.  We took a bloody big gamble spending £3M on a player that had never played in the Premiership.  Nobody else was prepared to take it.  Well it''s paid off spectacularly for us and if we are prepared to let him leave, it''ll be at our price

[Northern Canary 0]

yeah we would get a very good sum of money if he went. However i think the club has a better future with him than without.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

I kind of agree, if the bids dont come in high enough. If we get on a run (a big IF i no) and morale in the team is high im sure he will be happy here to the end of the season - nothing beats winning week in week out.

We really should invest our money better - not trying to sign Koumas who was available on loan was a terrible decision - truly awful.

I am really worried who is gonna arrive in january....

[ZLF 271]

What we do need to have is the replacement signed before we announce Ashtons departure otherwise we will be fleeced into paying too much for sub standard replacements.  

 

Also any deal needs to be done early so we at least have time to find a replacement - o point getting £8m+ on the 30th Jan and then not being able to spend it; unless the season really is over already.

 

OTBC  

[Herb 0]

[quote user="Paul Rankin"]

I am really worried who is gonna arrive in january....

[/quote]

Well last season it was Ashton, the season before it was Hucks, so I think your worries are peculiar to put it politely.

[macdougalls perm 0]

If Deano does leave, lets hope Sutton fancies a move back home. [;)]

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Herb"][quote user="Paul Rankin"]

I am really worried who is gonna arrive in january....

[/quote]

Well last season it was Ashton, the season before it was Hucks, so I think your worries are peculiar to put it politely.
[/quote]

Hucks signed on Boxing day... which is December

jas :)

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Herb"][quote user="Paul Rankin"]

I am really worried who is gonna arrive in january....

[/quote]

Well last season it was Ashton, the season before it was Hucks, so I think your worries are peculiar to put it politely.
[/quote]

but look at the last crop of signings and very average loans??  Is it too much to ask for a 1.5 million pound koumas bid and showing some proper ambition in an attempt to keep deano? we could always fund it in the summer through the sale of ashton/greeno players who are going to leave anyway if we do not get promoted.

Its the sort of boost the club needs at the moment

[Temp the Revelator 0]

That would be a hell of a gamble though, buying on the strength that we could sell either of those two to recoup money in the summer - what happens if (fingers crossed it doesn''t) one of those two gets a career ending injury in the meantime?  Not counting any insurance policy we may or may not have on the player, bang goes our potential recoup of money, and all the good work of the last five years is undone in one foul swoop.  I don''t think this is the kind of gamble our current administration is likely to take, do you?

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

To be honest, You could probably recoup any money spent on koumas in an instant - by selling Jason Koumas..  the guy is a 3 million player if you have to prise him from a club, he is only cheap now because robson wants rid of him.

[lucky green trainers 0]

if we continue to play well and are top ten by end of year, deano may not wish to go. if we lose next 3 and slide back down then he may well want to go. if he doesn''t want to go, then 7-9m looks most likely amount to prise him away. if he does want to go, the 5-7m may be the best price we can get.If he doesn''t go, then to finance permanent signings of  dicko, robbo or davs  will require  green to  be off for 2-3m, as  playing budget already exceeded getting loan players in since wolves match - unless board has injected new cash or city has borrowed extra.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Sell Koumas then if that happened.. he is worth a fair amount of money and available on the cheap due to West Brom wanting him gone.. I dont see him ever being worth less than 1.5 million.

He is a bargain and the perfect foil for our hard working worthy style midfielders

[a1canary 0]

The club is in the happy and rare position of holding most of the cards

here so you could be right dd. He''s got a long way to go on the

contract and potential suitors know we won''t let him go for anything

other than a significant premium on what we paid for him.

BUT, and there is a big but, remember how we got him? We splashed out

big money for him that we didn''t have on the basis that it was a no

lose situation. We stay up, end of argument, we have the cash to keep

him from being in the prem. We go down, we recoup what we paid for him

and then some. At the time it was a compelling argument and one that

anyone would have accepted and would go along with again. But the fact

is we have gone down, and it may just be that the club will have to

sell for the first time in a few years for purely financial reasons to

balance the books. If that is the position, then it is imperative that

the club give the impression that it does not HAVE to sell and that it

will only accept big money offers. Which is exactly what it has been

doing. Otherwise it could find iteslf having to accept £4m if the

vultures know we need the cash.

I''ve heard people saying "we''re a selling club now." Of course we are

and we always were, that''s the reality for every club in div 1 and a

lot of those in the premiership. We''ve been spoilt in recent years

with, for us, big money signings we might have only dreamed of in the

past and no enforced sales. Unfortunately, reality will have to bite

sooner or later.

Sorry to put the dampeners on!

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

[quote user="Herb"][quote user="Paul Rankin"]

I am really worried who is gonna arrive in january....

[/quote]

Well last season it was Ashton, the season before it was Hucks, so I think your worries are peculiar to put it politely.
[/quote]

No so peculiar when last year we also signed Stuart.  For every good signing Nigel has made, he''s made 3/4 shocking one''s.  I''m petrified as to whom he''ll bring in in January.  More players who can play in more than one position probably, which ultimately means they aren''t specialised in playing in one

[Salopian 1]

Deano could be the most complete striker we have ever had, - a once in

a lifetime signing.If he had receieved the kind of service he needs we

would be in the top six now. He has had a generally poor midfield

supporting him, and too many long balls from the back four and

goalkeeper.

If he goes, we must get a good price, - anything less than £7m would be

stupid, given what Liverpool paid for Crouch! What worries me is the

qualities of recent signings by Worthy - all four of the summer

singings seem to be unplayable.

I suspect that if Deano goes the club will withold some of the cash,

and by the time Crewe have had a cut, Worthy could have as little as

£2m. He doesn''t like taking risks with untried players, so expect a

veteran striker and yet another mediocre midfield motorman, and perhaps

a veteran right back who can''t get a game elsewhere.

My fervent hope is that we keep Deano until the end of the season and

come close to the play-offs. We might just manage to keep him longer,

and then acquire one or two decent players. You can always hope!

[a1canary 0]

I can''t believe you dd i really can''t. you used to be one of the few

voices of reason on here. i''m not saying that just because you''ve

switched to the worthy out camp - that''s your perogative, but you seem

to have lost all perspective like most of the worthy outers.

In particular, this grief people give him for his signings is just

ridiculous. First of all, you can only buy what''s available. People

seem to think you can go out and just get what you need. It''s a lottery

out there. Despite that, he has singed people that we all thought were

good siginings (jarrett, etuhu, thorne) and some that many thought were

bad signings at the time but have turned out good (safri, doherty). All

of the above are, or will be, in my opinion, good signings in this

division, jarrett included. And that''s before we say anything about

deano, leon, sven, hucks, duke box, crouch (particularly inspired given

that we singlehandedly reignited his career).

Now i''m no mathemetician but even if you count robinson, hughes, mlj,

colin, as duds (i don''t, yet), it''s way out to say for every good

signing in there there are 3 bad ones. Typical ''worthy out'' hyperbole.

 

I don''t think Nigel''s great but i just can''t see what good it would do

getting rid when we have someone in place who can turn it round and

knows what it takes to get out of this division.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

So where is the right winger at this club?  MLJ and Colin? Edworthy was twice the player of Colin (he actually spends time in both halves of the park!!)

Doherty - A premiership Center half lol - well i guess he is better than teaming up a 5''10" center half with a 5,8" Center half (FlemKing & Charlton) another mystifying decision

Andy Hughes - lacking in ability. 

As for Etuhu would you sign him and how much for?!?

[YankeeCanary 0]

A1Canary, you say you can''t believe DD and that he seems to have lost all perspective. It''s quite obvious that it is people like you that have lost all perspective simply by the lack of logic in your post. The ambition that most hoped this club would show is to build a team with players of potential to grow and perform in the Premiership and be led by a manager that develops and motivates such players to be competitive at that level. If one simply compared Nigel Worthington with Paul Jewell in such a role is there any doubt who comes out superior. It is all but certain that Dean Ashton will go in January and for less than many of us would hope I will wager. That will be a club decision, not something Nigel Worthington will want. However, Worthington has significant responsibility for us arriving at this point. If we have to start again in building towards the aforementioned objective then that failure is what Nigel is accountable for, nothing more, nothing less. That is why we are going about the process of bringing in players that are, at best, suited to the level we are currently playing in. Many of those players were not even first on their team sheets at clubs in this division. And that is not because they are youngsters with all kinds of future potential. They have already reached their peak. Now what is it in that perspective that you fail to grasp? 

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

If that''s what you think a1 then fair enough.  But I just don''t buy it.   I agree that you can only buy what''s out there.  However, time and again Worthington has bought what is out there and they just haven''t been good enough.  In the summer just gone we bought 2 right backs, neither of whom are better than the 1 we let go!  We paid half a million for Andy Hughes which quite frankly, Reading must still be p***sing themsleves at.  We got Marney, a central midfielder, and played him on the right and we bought Jarrett and Thorne.  The former was shipped out on loan as soon as he got here and the latter is no better than Svensson.  All of these "frees" were not free.  We would''ve paid them a good wage and a hefty signing on fee I would imagine. 

We can only buy what is out there.  However, in the summer just gone players like Ifill, Shipperly, Koumas, Ward (Palace), Blake and McAnuff were all "available".  Now this isn''t 20/20 hindsight.  All these players are quality first division players who would have done fantastically for us and all in our price range.  Unfortunately, our rivals got in their first.  I''m worried as to whom we''ll get in January.  Very worried

[a1canary 0]

Yankee,

I''m talking about having the perspective to see the difference between

what you want to do and what you can do in the transfer market. These

are two entirely different things. It''s a valid intention to want to

buy players "of potential to grow and perform in the Premiership" and

if you actually think the club''s ambition was NOT to do this then

that''s another loss of perspective on your part. This is what every

other team in div 1 is trying to do and yes, having earned ourselves

the chance on merit, we failed. But in case you''ve forgotten, only 3

teams earn themselves a shot at it every year and of them, if any of

them are lucky, MAYBE one of them will complete the next stage of the

job and stay up for another year.

How many clubs of comparable size to us have succeeded in your noble

aim of building a team of potential to grow and perform in the

premiership from div 1? Well there''s Charlton, Bolton, Birmingham.

Portsmouth maybe but you could argue that they have failed if they come

down this year. Likewise Birmingham granted they''ve had a longer stay

but would say they are as established as Charlton and Bolton? I think

not. I won''t include Wigan yet, they could still do an ipswich, finish

5th and then get relegated the next year. And so do you want me to bore

you with the vastly longer list of those that have failed? Yes it

includes us, but we''re still a healthy club after coming down unlike

most before us. But by your logic, whoever fails to build their team

competitive for the premiership is out, that''s it, end of story,

eventhough the odds are stacked hugely against them from the start.

Now take a look at THE most established clubs in that list, who pulled

off exactly what you are advocating - Bolton and Charlton. They came

down two, three or even four times before they did establish

themselves. And tell me, what happened with their managers during all

that time?

That''s right, they stayed put. You want a team that will grow and

perform, why can''t the manger be allowed the chance like curbs and big

sam had to do the same?

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

yeah but norwich are not growing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  we are going backwards - fast - a player the manager does not even want to play and who will be gone in the summer is our best performer at the moment!!!!

Our 10 goal striker is about to leave!!

We are holding onto our best midfielder by a thread and he will be off soon enough if we do not look like challenging.

I hate to argue but after January we could already be where Ipswich have taken 3 years to get!!!!

Proper signings in the summer and we could have been leading this division - the team is a shoe of creativity from being a top side.  However we are also a 10 goal striker, morrocan midfielder and year older huckerby from being an average championship team

[YankeeCanary 0]

A1Canary, I understand what perpective you are speaking about but that''s not the issue. Almost all football clubs will state they have ambition. Almost all football clubs will see a gap between players they would like to acquire versus who they do actually acquire but, that too, is not the issue. Teams such as Norwich City will always find it a struggle to get to the Premiership and maintain such a status but, PLEASE NOTE, that too is not the issue. The issue is that given the challenge we have and, when the opportunity presents itself, has Nigel Worthington demonstrated that he is is equal to, never mind superior to, the peers he has in clubs who face similar challenges to us against similarly stated ambitions. In my mind, the answer is clearly no. He may well measure up to Mick McCarthy because Sunderland appear to be demonstrating similar characteristics that we did last season. ( Incidentally, I believe you are quite right....Sunderland will be back, but not with McCarthy I''ll wager ). To speak of Nigel in the same breath as Sam Allardyce is just not on. Big Sam, as you say, took Blackpool to the playoffs in his first season ( compared to what Nigel did at Blackpool ). He moved to Notts County in 1997and, in the first season, took them to automatic promotion. he moved to Bolton in 1999 and led them to the playoffs,  which they lost out on. That was remedied the following season when they were promoted to the Premiership. It is what he has done to LEAD in the Premiership that shows the difference in calibre from Nigel, building improvement from season to season in acquiring the right players to carry out the tactics he wishes them to employ. I believe Paul Jewell is already demonstrating the same kind of stuff as Sam has. Does it mean those clubs won''t be relegated at a point in time. Of course not. However, I think those clubs have a far greater opportunity to achieve all that they can BECAUSE of, not in spite of, the acumen of the manager''s they have. If we disagree on that so be it, but the records speak for themselves. Anyway, we are getting off topic. If Deano does go then I think DD''s concern about who we are bringing in is valid.

[Old Boy 0]

We are actually going forwards, slowly. We are capable of outplaying any side in this division, but the players aren''t producing the goods regularly enough (for whatever reason, but the fact that a good performance comes out of the blue suggests that it''s not a coaching issue - they know how to do it, but they don''t: more likely collective laziness together with injuries).

Players like Koumas may look good on paper, but have issues and aren''t what we need if we''re trying to build a TEAM. Thorne is better than Svensson in my opinion. Hughes is better than Holt. Gary Doherty has matured this season into one of the best centre halves in the division, despite all the flak he faced in the early days. I hope we get Davenport next month, and then we''ll be sorted. Drury is back in form, and his game is growing. Robinson needs to play consistently like he did in his first game, but if he does, together with Safri (who has said that he wants to stay at Norwich - again, please keep up, Rankin) we''ll have a very good central midfield. And Ashton (he hasn''t gone yet) paired with Thorne, Henderson, Huckerby or McVeigh (if he can be bothered) gives us the best strike-force in the division. So we have a better first eleven than we did last season. That''s not going backwards, is it?

Having made that point, we do have holes in the squad. Hendo can put in very good crosses from the right, but can''t go past players very well. McVeigh and Huckerby can put good crosses in, but are better employed elsewhere. And we need better cover in crucial positions. But where from? Let''s have some 20-20 foresight for a change - give us some names, all you know-it-alls, and we''ll keep an eye on how they get on in the future.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Gloomy post again Paul. I''ll have a word with my mate Nigel, he knows a bloke who will change the way you look at things.

[YankeeCanary 0]

DD ( or anyone else for that matter ), you may find it interesting to access the article ( from the identified shortcut ) that was done by an Irish reporter on Mick McCarthy, admittedly over two years ago. Long article, but note some of the similarities that have been directed to Nigel in the past.. Is this contributing to the Premiership performance similarity between Sunderland and our effort last season?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,912458,00.html#article_continue

[a1canary 0]

Yankee, ok, i take some of you points but please don''t put words in my mouth. Not once did i compare NW to Allardyce. Of course SA''s achievements dwarf NW''s. I merely said why not give NW the opportunity to achieve what the likes of Allardyce and Curbishley have through being kept on during the tough spells to carry on their tasks. History shows it''s the managers who are given time who succeed. Until now, NW''s progress has been pretty much up all the way since he was appointed at NCFC.  At the moment it''s still a blip.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Old Boy"]

Players like Koumas may look good on paper, but have issues and aren''t what we need if we''re trying to build a TEAM. Thorne is better than Svensson in my opinion. Hughes is better than Holt. Gary Doherty has matured this season into one of the best centre halves in the division, despite all the flak he faced in the early days. I hope we get Davenport next month, and then we''ll be sorted. Drury is back in form, and his game is growing. Robinson needs to play consistently like he did in his first game, but if he does, together with Safri (who has said that he wants to stay at Norwich - again, please keep up, Rankin) we''ll have a very good central midfield. And Ashton (he hasn''t gone yet) paired with Thorne, Henderson, Huckerby or McVeigh (if he can be bothered) gives us the best strike-force in the division. So we have a better first eleven than we did last season. That''s not going backwards, is it?

[/quote]

Old defense:   Green Eddy Malcky Flem Drury - solid well organised edworthy good in crossing, malky gets vital goals

New defense: Green Colin Doherty FLem/Shacks Drury - no attacking threat from the full backs, no goals

old midfield: no right Side, Francis Holt Hucks

new midfield Hendo (lol right ,midfield), Safri, Hughes, Hucks - hughes is the biggest headless chicken i have seeen at this club in 15 years of going

old strike force    Svenny, Mckenzie

new strikeforce   Ashton Mackenzie - an improvement (until ashton leaves in january)

 

As for your comment better first 11 than last season NO WAY - all the signings have been bad so we cant have.  And if we do have why are we 2 points above hull??

[Syteanric 1]

i read the McCarthy article... its certainly true that it could mirror Worthington too....

jas :)

[charlies dad 0]

When confronted by such gems of wisdom as ''Thorne is better than Svensson'' and ''Hughes is better than Holt''. It should become obvious to all and sundry that banging ones head against a brick wall doesnt work.  

[The Great Drinkell 50]

[quote user="Paul Rankin"]To be honest, You could probably recoup any money spent on koumas in an instant - by selling Jason Koumas..  the guy is a 3 million player if you have to prise him from a club, he is only cheap now because robson wants rid of him.[/quote]

 

 Surely if this guy is a £3m player and with the plight that WBA find themselves in. ie a relegation battle the question has to be why does Robson want rid.

 I am a great admirer of this lads talent, but it appears that home is where the heart is ie Wales