Move Ground to move forward.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

If we do not grasp the nettle sooner rather than later with redevelopment of The City Stand we will end up with a situation like with The South Stand and have it forced upon us by the authorities. How long had The South Stand been in the condition it was before we were boxed up a corner over it ? 30 years or just over so with The City Stand now over 30 years old it cannot be ignored.

Edited June 23, 2019 by TIL 1010

[Bill 1,788]

" There is far more to this debate than just increasing income. The main purpose of building a new stand isn't to give us the financial muscle to crack the top six or anything like that. Even if we increase capacity and break even it would be a positive, for the reasons I stated on the first page and for the reasons Kingsway has stated, particularly the post below: "

 

Anf therein loes the problem

Many have this rather bizarre idea than this can all be done so as to increase income !

There is nothing to suggest we could break even. As stated even the most basic of fag packet calculations show that it would make a loss - even with full capacity in the PL.

But no where have I heard of any explanation of how the debt would be funded  outside of the PL.... the very point the club has consistently put over.

.If some kindly soul gave us the money needed that would only amount to under £3m in increased ticket money. Whereas we will get an extra £1.9m in prize money for every place higher we finish. Yet clueless numpties are saying that we should use money from the playing budget to subsidise glory hunters. Check with the club to see how big the season ticket waiting list was up to Xmas of 2018.

If we spend on a player we can sell him to recoup some or more of his fee and the liability of his contract goes We cannot do that with a huge debt.. However even that almost brought us to our knees last summer. Yet have we have the numpties wanting us back there. Which unsurprisingly they wren't clamouring for last summer.

 

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

If we do not grasp the nettle sooner rather than later with redevelopment of The City Stand we will end up with a situation like with The South Stand and have it forced upon us by the authorities. How long had The South Stand been in the condition it was before we were boxed up a corner over it ? 30 years or just over so with The City Stand now over 30 years old it cannot be ignored.

You are being sillier than normal.

The South Stand was build 70 years under different requirements.

The arguments on here are not about that either.

They are based on us being able to increase capacity without it costing anything..

I have no objection to a rebuilt Main stand and I would suggest it should be build to the level of the other three stands so doubling it's capacity.

But that has to be undertaken on the basis of knowing the costs and possible risks - not based on some la la land delusion that building football stands doesn't cost any money.

[Barbe bleu 814]

Ok, looks like we are getting to the crux of the issue now.   

It's a question of priorities. Everyone has their own.  Bill clearly wants the money on the pitch.    This is probably the best way to short term success but comes at a long term cost to the next generation and means that lots of casual fans/  glory hunters are excluded in the here and now. 

Bill's is a perfectly understandable position and if I were a season ticket holder I might also ask what's in in for me. 

Others take a long term view which will only begin  to reap any reward in 5-10 years from now and which will likely cause us to hold off on heavy investment on the pitch for a little while. 

 

A third group will say expansion is the only way I can see top level football as tickets are like golddust.

 

All sensible positions. Now it is for the club to decide which tribe it favours.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Barbe bleu

[TIL 1010 4,722]

25 minutes ago, Bill said:

You are being sillier than normal.

The South Stand was build 70 years under different requirements.

The arguments on here are not about that either.

They are based on us being able to increase capacity without it costing anything..

I have no objection to a rebuilt Main stand and I would suggest it should be build to the level of the other three stands so doubling it's capacity.

But that has to be undertaken on the basis of knowing the costs and possible risks - not based on some la la land delusion that building football stands doesn't cost any money.

The seats were put in The South Stand in 1974 and was in danger of failing the safety certificate around 2000.

[Bill 1,788]

5 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

The seats were put in The South Stand in 1974 and was in danger of failing the safety certificate around 2000.

could that have been due to it being constructed under different regulations and requirements ?

 

ps do keep us all informed when the Main Stand faces that problem

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

" There is far more to this debate than just increasing income. The main purpose of building a new stand isn't to give us the financial muscle to crack the top six or anything like that. Even if we increase capacity and break even it would be a positive, for the reasons I stated on the first page and for the reasons Kingsway has stated, particularly the post below: "

 

Anf therein loes the problem

Many have this rather bizarre idea than this can all be done so as to increase income !

There is nothing to suggest we could break even. As stated even the most basic of fag packet calculations show that it would make a loss - even with full capacity in the PL.

But no where have I heard of any explanation of how the debt would be funded  outside of the PL.... the very point the club has consistently put over.

.If some kindly soul gave us the money needed that would only amount to under £3m in increased ticket money. Whereas we will get an extra £1.9m in prize money for every place higher we finish. Yet clueless numpties are saying that we should use money from the playing budget to subsidise glory hunters. Check with the club to see how big the season ticket waiting list was up to Xmas of 2018.

If we spend on a player we can sell him to recoup some or more of his fee and the liability of his contract goes We cannot do that with a huge debt.. However even that almost brought us to our knees last summer. Yet have we have the numpties wanting us back there. Which unsurprisingly they wren't clamouring for last summer.

 

I think it's a shortsighted view. OK, we can invest in the playing squad, gain £1.9m by finishing 15th instead of 16th or whatever, and we'll reinvest the money straight back in the playing squad and aim for the same thing next year.

Then, fast forward to 2025, and no matter how established we are, we'll still end up getting relegated eventually anyway. Stoke, West Brom and Swansea showed last year despite being established sides with ten, nine and seven consecutive years respectively that clubs of our size will always recycle themselves between the top two tiers. But oh well, at least we have that £1.9m in the bank still from five years earlier, thanks to the £15m striker we bought from the sale of Max Aarons, instead of putting the money towards a new stand. Oh wait! No we don't. We gave it to a new signing as a loyalty bonus, so now we have no £1.9m, we've been relegated, the City Stand is decaying, the season ticket holders are in their 70s and no teenager has been able to get regular tickets at any point in their childhood.

Meanwhile the other sides have been improving off the pitch as well as on, they have bigger and better grounds than us now, and we've just been twiddling our thumbs as Carrow Road got neglected, the season ticket holders got older and the next generation couldn't get tickets.

Also, is there anyone out there who is thinking 'Bloody hell, what a waste of money the Jarrold Stand was! We could've spent that money on new players and been a Premier League regular by now with several European campaigns.'

Anyone? I'm guessing not. We're all looking back and thinking what a fantastic long term investment it was. Imagine the state of the ground, and to a lesser extent the club, if we still had a 20,000 capacity ground that was out of date. Prospective new signings wouldn't be impressed, revenue streams would be down and our standing as a club would be lower.

You have to keep moving forward in order to not fall backwards. It's a shortsighted view to not invest in the ground now, as we're guaranteed £100m in TV money this year and we can easily gain £40-50m next summer by selling any two out of Aarons, Godfrey, Lewis or Buendia. A new stand would cost a fraction of the amount we'll bring in over the next 12 months, and even if it meant having a smaller playing budget, we'll be glad we did it in 20 years' time, when the population of the city has risen again, younger fans can get tickets to set the club up for future generations, the ground is comparable to other clubs our size who have all invested and our club has seen a general reputation boost (or maybe just not a decline) as a result of investing in more modern facilities.

Even if we make a slight loss now, it needs to be done for long term success.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[shefcanary 2,385]

There was a time we drew nearly 44,000 to a match involving Leicester (!) who even then weren't exactly world class.  In the 1960's, when the population of Norwich and Norfolk was about 2/3 rds what it is today!  So currently capacity is 60% of what was achievable in 1960's with a potential catchment population that's grown by 50%.  

This is where I see potential opportunity without being reckless.  We could be talking a potential max. draw of 60,000 extrapolating from those figures - sure there are other demands on people's leisure time but as Leicester, Southampton and others have shown with similar catchment areas, with a modicum of EPL stability, 30,000 attendances can be sustained, only half of say maximum potential.  If we had a modicum of ambition and a board only being risk moderate it is affordable.  A reasonable capital investment of £30 million, funded by loans (secured on future income) and a bond issue would require annual repayments of £4 - 5 million p.a. over 10 years.  Although this would only generate conservatively an extra ticket income of £2million p.a. based on 4,000 increase in average attendance, surely £3million can be generated through other streams.  Or if payback over 25 years the ticket income alone from the 4,000 would cover it.  

As others have said, this extra capacity is as important to secure fans into the future.  I've seen people quote 5,000 memberships for home matches have been snapped up with only 1,500 available.  I'm struggling to see why people suggest this potential audience be frozen out for the medium to long term because of a lack of ambition.

Perhaps I am talking **** and too Percy Positive, but faint heart etc.     

[Surfer 1,547]

9 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The op lost me in the first sentence "CR is not on an ideal site". It's in a super spot for access from the city and station and even has space around it for expansion if wanted, especially on the CR side of the ground. Three stands are pretty good already and the city stand is ripe for development if and when wanted. Even the hotel isn't so much of an issue as it used to be now there is a screen there.  

That was me LDC: I said "Carrow Rd is not on an ideal site for a ground, road access and parking are not up to expectations for some people, but it does have lots of things going for it - not the least being rail access"

It's not an ideal site because of limited road access but it is a good site, and a whole lot better than a new site out of Norwich.

So the issues - which could be impacting redevelopment options for the City Stand - are around crowd access and safety especially post game, plus lack of parking. Let's leave the latter alone for now, but for crowd safety I've seen enough reconstruction videos of accidents caused by crowds meeting constrictions I wonder if that is not an additional concern for building a stand extension with 4,000 additional people that would empty into Carrow Road immediately behind that stand.

In an ideal world there'd be another pedestrian bridge across the river connecting to Carrow Hill Rd to relieve some of the post game pressure on Carrow Rd caused by the biggest portion of the crowd leaving by the intersection of Carrow Rd / Wherry Rd / Koblenz Ave / Geoffrey Watling Way.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Surfer

[Felixfan 53]

4 hours ago, Bill said:

oh dear, more nonense

given that any increase in capacity would not over the building cost you nutters are yet to explain where the money would come from

and when did Carrow Road only have a 20,000 capacity ?

See my earlier post re possible funding sources.

[ricardo 7,345]

23 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

There was a time we drew nearly 44,000 to a match involving Leicester (!) who even then weren't exactly world class.  In the 1960's, when the population of Norwich and Norfolk was about 2/3 rds what it is today!  So currently capacity is 60% of what was achievable in 1960's with a potential catchment population that's grown by 50%.  

 

I'm sorry but the truth is somewhat different.

The FA CUP game v Leicester drew nearly 44k. It was a one off event.

The following week we entertained Chelsea and had a gate of 20,205.

The average gate for that season was 19,713.

The catchment area has certainly grown but I am aware of no analysis that claims we could average 32k or more in any kind of realistic future.

[ThorpeCanary 71]

 

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The catchment area has certainly grown but I am aware of no analysis that claims we could average 32k or more in any kind of realistic future.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-19703856

[ricardo 7,345]

2 minutes ago, ThorpeCanary said:

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-19703856

The only problem being the inability to guarentee Premier League status and that is unlikely to change.

The other problem which seems to have so far been avoided is that a bigger ground lessens the necessity to purchase a season ticket meaning an increase in casuals who become the first to give it a miss when success is on the wane. Average crowds throughout times of low or moderate success have often been well under 20k. Even allowing for a 60% larger catchment area does not require much bigger capacity than 30k.

You are never going to see 32k average crowds at Carrow Rd or any other purpose built stadium in any conceivable medium term future in my opinion.

[Indy 3,283]

6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only problem being the inability to guarentee Premier League status and that is unlikely to change.

The other problem which seems to have so far been avoided is that a bigger ground lessens the necessity to purchase a season ticket meaning an increase in casuals who become the first to give it a miss when success is on the wane. Average crowds throughout times of low or moderate success have often been well under 20k. Even allowing for a 60% larger catchment area does not require much bigger capacity than 30k.

You are never going to see 32k average crowds at Carrow Rd or any other purpose built stadium in any conceivable medium term future in my opinion.

Well that’s a very funny statement Ricardo, I remember pre 2000 just before the old south stand was replaced we were averaging around 17000 thousand, if my memory serves me right, if you were having this conversation then would you be saying I can’t see us averaging 26k over the next 18 years, so might as well just build a small new south stand and keep the capacity at 22000 and the cost down?

i don’t think you’re right, I believe you would easily see 30k plus if the capacity was there, the pricing was right to encourage youngsters. The current set up is moving forward in a very positive and have to say well managed way, on top of this there’s certainly a bigger catchment for this club so there is a great potential here.

[ricardo 7,345]

Just now, Indy said:

Well that’s a very funny statement Ricardo, I remember pre 2000 just before the old south stand was replaced we were averaging around 17000 thousand, if my memory serves me right, if you were having this conversation then would you be saying I can’t see us averaging 26k over the next 18 years, so might as well just build a small new south stand and keep the capacity at 22000 and the cost down?

i don’t think you’re right, I believe you would easily see 30k plus if the capacity was there, the pricing was right to encourage youngsters. The current set up is moving forward in a very positive and have to say well managed way, on top of this there’s certainly a bigger catchment for this club so there is a great potential here.

Gates have always waxed and waned, they have nothing to do with the capacity of the ground and everything to do with success and failure. In 72/73 we had a record average of 28,652 for our first season in the top division. The following season it had declined by over 5k and continued a steady decline until by 91/92 it was down to 13,856. In that twenty years the population probably increase by a large percentage but it had no noticeable effect on gates at Carrow Road.

Yes it would be nice to have a bit more capacity but anyone who thinks gates are on an ever ascending glide path are living in a fantasy land.

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Gates have always waxed and waned, they have nothing to do with the capacity of the ground and everything to do with success and failure. In 72/73 we had a record average of 28,652 for our first season in the top division. The following season it had declined by over 5k and continued a steady decline until by 91/92 it was down to 13,856. In that twenty years the population probably increase by a large percentage but it had no noticeable effect on gates at Carrow Road.

Yes it would be nice to have a bit more capacity but anyone who thinks gates are on an ever ascending glide path are living in a fantasy land.

No one is saying they’re on an ever ascending glide path but demand is there for the current catchment and football requirements for now and foreseeable future, there’s little doubt we need a bigger capacity!

 

My original question was really not aimed to this old chestnut of a debate and it’s noticeable the same older fans are the ones with a very narrow view point.

I was more interested in the youngsters who now have season tickets, who would like season tickets, what would they like to see in the future?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

26 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only problem being the inability to guarentee Premier League status and that is unlikely to change.

The other problem which seems to have so far been avoided is that a bigger ground lessens the necessity to purchase a season ticket meaning an increase in casuals who become the first to give it a miss when success is on the wane. Average crowds throughout times of low or moderate success have often been well under 20k. Even allowing for a 60% larger catchment area does not require much bigger capacity than 30k.

You are never going to see 32k average crowds at Carrow Rd or any other purpose built stadium in any conceivable medium term future in my opinion.

We'll easily average 32k when we're in the Premier League. In the Championship we might end up with 22-24k for games against Rotherham, Millwall or the latest Yeovil/Burton type even when we're playing poorly, but you'll get 32k sellouts for the bigger games I'm sure. This would probably give us at least a 28k average and enough scope to attract the younger generation, and to fill the ground longer term (and I'm talking at least 20 years) as the population creeps up and that younger generation have hopefully been bitten by the bug.

It's something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. I can't imagine this stadium will be fit for even a mid-table Championship club in 20 years (bearing in mind Father Time will have an effect on it) so the only way not investing is a good idea is if we 'do an Ipswich'. Surely now is a great time to invest while we have £100m in TV money and £100m worth of young talent in the squad? There will arguably never be a better time to invest in work that will definitely need to be done within the next 20-30 years anyway.

[ricardo 7,345]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

No one is saying they’re on an ever ascending glide path but demand is there for the current catchment and football requirements for now and foreseeable future, there’s little doubt we need a bigger capacity!

 

My original question was really not aimed to this old chestnut of a debate and it’s noticeable the same older fans are the ones with a very narrow view point.

I was more interested in the youngsters who now have season tickets, who would like season tickets, what would they like to see in the future?

I am simply trying to inject a dose of reality into some of the fantisising on this thread. Especiallyto  those who have only experienced the interesting times of the last 10-15 years. Perhaps they don't realise that they have lived through an exceptional period of the clubs history. There's a club not too far away that can tell you an entirely different story.

There are a lot of clubs that inhabit a stadium that is too big for them and maybe ours is a bit tight now but not by much in my opinion.

[Indy 3,283]

3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I am simply trying to inject a dose of reality into some of the fantisising on this thread. Especiallyto  those who have only experienced the interesting times of the last 10-15 years. Perhaps they don't realise that they have lived through an exceptional period of the clubs history. There's a club not too far away that can tell you an entirely different story.

There are a lot of clubs that inhabit a stadium that is too big for them and maybe ours is a bit tight now but not by much in my opinion.

I don’t think you’re totally right, there’s certainly call for controlled growth in a current strong market, football in the top two divisions will only grow for the foreseeable future, so the time is right as demand is there, but of course there’s always others opinions, we certainly mustn’t stay static in a strong market place.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Indy, I suspect it's not going to be as easy as you imagined getting your hands on casual tickets🙃

Twelve months there were fears that the stadium was too big. 

[Felixfan 53]

14 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I am simply trying to inject a dose of reality into some of the fantisising on this thread. Especiallyto  those who have only experienced the interesting times of the last 10-15 years. Perhaps they don't realise that they have lived through an exceptional period of the clubs history. There's a club not too far away that can tell you an entirely different story.

There are a lot of clubs that inhabit a stadium that is too big for them and maybe ours is a bit tight now but not by much in my opinion.

Surely it is better to plan for he future even if it means some seasons there is spare capacity. The club needs to move on or at least plan to.

[ricardo 7,345]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Indy, I suspect it's not going to be as easy as you imagined getting your hands on casual tickets🙃

Twelve months there were fears that the stadium was too big. 

Yes, I know more than a few who jacked it a couple of seasons back.

Oh well more room for the young'uns😀

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Indy, I suspect it's not going to be as easy as you imagined getting your hands on casual tickets🙃

Twelve months there were fears that the stadium was too big. 

Don’t worry about me young Nutty, I’m very content in watching from my armchair, with a pint after my morning round of golf. 👍

 

I don’t think anyone has ever said we need a billion pound Spurs type ground, but my question is more for the next generation, as we’ve debated this for years, I think we all know how certain posters think.

 

Hope you’re well young Eddy, I hope to get more involved if time will allow with next seasons PUPs on this forum.

[ricardo 7,345]

1 minute ago, Felixfan said:

Surely it is better to plan for he future even if it means some seasons there is spare capacity. The club needs to move on or at least plan to.

I have a feeling that they aren't doing it just to upset you or anyone else who finds it hard to get tickets when times are good.

So far it has been difficult to match the ambition with the finance. In time that could change but I'm not holding my breath.

[Indy 3,283]

Nutty, you must have grandchildren who in time will have expanded families, surely you would hope that if they follow your passion for this great club, then there would be capacity for them and theirs to watch the game? There’s an ever expanding growth in this area at the moment.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

The thing is, it's all well and good quoting statistics from 30 years ago, but times have moved on. Attendances in stadiums in general weren't at the level they are now, possibly due to social factors such as hooliganism that don't really exist any more. The average attendances, and overall interest, in English football have been growing steadily and I can't envisage anything on a sporting, social or other level that would lead to attendances plummeting. 

[ricardo 7,345]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Nutty, you must have grandchildren who in time will have expanded families, surely you would hope that if they follow your passion for this great club, then there would be capacity for them and theirs to watch the game? There’s an ever expanding growth in this area at the moment.

So there is at 1p5wich but they are hardly rushing the turnstyles.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Nutty, you must have grandchildren who in time will have expanded families, surely you would hope that if they follow your passion for this great club, then there would be capacity for them and theirs to watch the game? There’s an ever expanding growth in this area at the moment.

The children and grandchildren go now Indy. 

If youngsters aren't getting in there are ways, even with the capacity as it is now. If the demand is there then 500 casual tickets could be set aside for family memberships. If there were 1,000 of these members they'd get 10 games each.

I'm not against expanding the stadium either. I'm just against the debt.

Glad you're getting more involved with PUPs, we need you.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

If youngsters aren't getting in there are ways, even with the capacity as it is now. If the demand is there then 500 casual tickets could be set aside for family memberships. If there were 1,000 of these members they'd get 10 games each.

And what about the exiles? That's going to cause even more loyalty-type arguments similar to the membership scheme.

With a 5,000 increase you won't be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[SwindonCanary 455]

All I ask is how long is it since a casual supporter, could get two seats together for a match ?  My guess would be before the  2nd division days, because even then my mate could not get two tickets for a home match !