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Move Ground to move forward.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Bill said:

oh dear, in a sulk are we

realised that complaining about the cost of a sporting venue being a hindrance is exceedingly stupid even for you

still far better to fall back onto the old 'distraction ' gambit, a favourite of your kind which is always easier than having to try and justify this ludicrous guff

" Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million "

the latter being something we have tucked away somewhere (Watling's wallet maybe ?)

if not some friendly bank will lend it to us, after all it is not as if retail is going through a dramatic change is it ?

folk could park up in the city and leap onto to the monorail (Springfield) and head towards this new wonder of the East, that defies the failings of Castle Mall or Chapelfied, though I'm not sure where they would be located within the stadium or what rental income they would return to pay off the ' Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million ' loan

but then, like many others on here reality is not really part of your argument, is it ?

Are you still on this thread City 1st, I’m sure Brexit thread is missing you! Probably not......What’s this Argument you keep going on about? I’ve no argument, never have on this thread!

Who said anything about this idea being anything other than an thought for the perfect scenario, not one which as stated costing multiple millions would ever happen, the same for the idea of a multipurpose stadium designed to facilitate multiple event types......it’s not the real world you dim old boy, read the thread properly and stop trying to take snippets to build a dumb response to......

Now I can’t be arsed to keep debating an argument with a old duffer with a huge chip on his shoulder......Angry little elf aren’t we! 

Edited by Indy

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1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm not infering that season ticket holders are selfish at all, just that some on here don't seem to realise that there are many supporters out there who have completely different lifestyles, outlooks, commitments and priorities than them. The current state of affairs is fine for the extremely committed, the highly organized, those who can commit to a season ticket, those who don't mind sitting alone, or are not particularly choosy about which part of the ground you sit in. Many of those who do not fit into those categories have stopped trying to get tickets.

 

 

I think that is fair. Going from season ticket holder to non season ticket holder has been a bit of an eye opener.

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22 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

A deeply philosophical question about the purpose of a football club.

Why is the club spending a good few million gaining prestige and giving its supporters a cheaper, better day out and increasing its accessibility not in itself a good thing? 

If its funded from reserves or sales and not debt does the expansion need to make any money? 

 

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10 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I think you have been a supporter for long enough to know that's not how it works. 

I can't see anything except benefit for season ticket holders if the stadium capacity is increased. The only potential losers are our football club and supporters who only want to go in the PL.

I've been a supporter long enough to know it's exactly the way it works for thousands of supporters who don't live in the myopic bubble of many on here. You are aware that over half our support comes from outside the city right? How do you think groups of mates who can only make 6-8 games a season due to other commitments traveling in from Lynn, Lowestoft etc have faired over the last twelve years? Or large families in a similar position? Unless they are incredibly patient, organised and tenacious many of these people have given up. 

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Ultimately it's all about opinions, there's no right or wrong, merely a point of view depending on circumstances. However, the idea that anyone who doesn't attend regularly is a 'plastic' or glory boy is well wide of the mark. As mentioned earlier, the Club don't care,  all money coming into the Club is worth the same, it's the maximizing of potential that concerns me. 

How much money have we lost during our 4 seasons in the Premiership since 2010? Even in the Championship against the bigger Clubs.  Sure, we'd struggle to sell out against Burton and Rotherham on a wet Tuesday in February,  even then the shortfall is the away Club not taking up their allocation. 

Also mentioned earlier, is the desire to have extra capacity to allow more people, those not usually able to attend for financial reasons (kids for a quid) or to expand the support base, now, for the future. 

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9 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I've been a supporter long enough to know it's exactly the way it works for thousands of supporters who don't live in the myopic bubble of many on here. You are aware that over half our support comes from outside the city right? How do you think groups of mates who can only make 6-8 games a season due to other commitments traveling in from Lynn, Lowestoft etc have faired over the last twelve years? Or large families in a similar position? Unless they are incredibly patient, organised and tenacious many of these people have given up. 

Then you will also realise that it's not practical for our club to keep banks of seats empty just in case these people occasionally want to come.

If you follow our club home or away you will realise that many of our supporters are from wider Norfolk and beyond. Those that use club travel have to get to and from Norwich at all times of the day or night. Theirs is a tremendous effort.

I would say most of the posters on here are not from Norwich. In fact many of them not from Norfolk and in quite a few cases not from England. The myopic bubble is yours Mr Carrow.

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Depends if there are enough of those irregular fans to fill those seats doesn't it? And demand over the last twelve years has indicated extremely strongly that there is. I know it may never have entered your head before, but some of those people could become future season tickets holders, bring their family and friends etc. It's nothing to be scared of.

Thank you for the rest of your post lecturing me on something I'd already pointed out- "Over half our support comes from outside the city". Bit weird that.

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So we should keep banks of empty seats just in case then.

And I won't apologise for pointing out the myopic bubble you live in with regards to "many posters on here". Maybe you could point to these "many posters" you were referring to?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So we should keep banks of empty seats just in case then.

To be fair  we dont know that there will be banks of empty seats. Your assessment is that there will be, others will argue that there won't.  

Edited by Barbe bleu

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Webber mentioned the club's potential again in the TNC interview nutty. I trust that when he announces expansion plans you'll be the first to lecture him on the error of his ways- as the omnipotent nutty nigel already knows it will just be banks of empty seats, despite all evidence to the contrary.

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I'll be joining the 10,000 applying for the 1200 seats available on July 22nd. Only trouble being I will be looking for 3 seats together !

Wish me luck.

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With most discussions, there will be at least two opposite sides, with opinions ranging from the far side of one to the far side of the other.

I don’t know why people can’t just discuss things respectfully, rather than resorting to insults and snide remarks.

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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:
1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

So we should keep banks of empty seats just in case then.

To be fair  we dont know that there will be banks of empty seats. Your assessment is that there will be others who argue that there wont.  

If anything, any empty seats would be in parts of the ground where the view is less great, like in the upper corners, so the ground will still look pretty full. So having more seats available simply opens up possibilities for better viewing for existing fans as well as any new ones.  

It would be great imo to have the option of having an increased capacity, it would give many more people encouragement that they will be able to get tickets - and at £30 each, people will have every incentive to go to matches.  The ground does not have to be full to justify having the extra seats - it simply means it will be better for fans generally.

Anyhow, the chances are that if we stay in the PL for a while, we could fill a 32-35,000 stadium quite easily for many of the matches.  The only issue is where we get the money from to do it.  How much would an extension to the City Stand cost....£30m?  I would favour another bond scheme to raise some of the capital - and a good finish in the PL means lots of prize money - anything above 8th gets you £25 million +.   

It could be done if the will to develop the club is the main thing (and that has been stated as a clear policy) - you spend on infrastructure and not spend too much on players.

 

 

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In 2014/15 we had four attendances of less than 27k, not by much, but the games weren’t sold out. This is the thing for me, we would sell out when we play the top six but not the others in my opinion 

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

I'll be joining the 10,000 applying for the 1200 seats available on July 22nd. Only trouble being I will be looking for 3 seats together !

Wish me luck.

Never mind Swindon. We will soon be building a £30 million stand just for people who only want to attend 6-8 times a year.

There will also be a special section so those who will only come if they can be gaurenteed six seats together so they can sit with their mates.

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Anyhow, the chances are that if we stay in the PL for a while, we could fill a 32-35,000 stadium quite easily for many of the matches. 

 

 

It's easy to make statements based on wishful thinking but where is the evidence for this. I just don't see these extra 5 to 8 thousand clamouring for tickets on any sort of regular basis.

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If someone had suggested expanding the stadium to 27,000 in the nineties most would laughed. Norwich in the top 3 and pulling in 12,000 for a Wimbledon underlines the need now.

Definitely time to match up the main stand with south stand sooner rather than later . 

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8 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Trouble is now, when I have to do it time and time again, as at the moment I'm trying to get to all but 3 matches.

I admire your commitment Swindon.

I doubt I could ride my bike all the way from Wiltshire though.

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19 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Never mind Swindon. We will soon be building a £30 million stand just for people who only want to attend 6-8 times a year.

There will also be a special section so those who will only come if they can be gaurenteed six seats together so they can sit with their mates.

I think there's been enough said over the last 11 pages to appreciate there's more than just glory hunters to facilitate. 

Over the last 10 years our support has proved it needs a bigger stadium. If during the times when this is not the case we have empty seats making for lower prices or more accessible pricing for concessions I'm all for it. The club will need to be sensible and I can't see many reasons for an expansion right now but give it a couple of seasons of premier League football and it's something I'd fully expect this board to be looking at

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1 minute ago, ThorpeCanary said:

I think there's been enough said over the last 11 pages to appreciate there's more than just glory hunters to facilitate. 

Over the last 10 years our support has proved it needs a bigger stadium. If during the times when this is not the case we have empty seats making for lower prices or more accessible pricing for concessions I'm all for it.

I'm sure you are but in what economic reality does it make sense to spend money on expansion in order to offer cheaper pricing. If expansion cannot at least pay for itself then there is no incentive to take it on. NCFC are not part of Social Services, whatever they decide has to be financialy viable based upon projected income. The problem is the nature of that income can rise or fall substatially based upon on field performances that cannot be accurately forecast.

If this was an easy decision it would already have been taken.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Webber mentioned the club's potential again in the TNC interview nutty. I trust that when he announces expansion plans you'll be the first to lecture him on the error of his ways- as the omnipotent nutty nigel already knows it will just be banks of empty seats, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

2 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Webber mentioned the club's potential again in the TNC interview nutty. I trust that when he announces expansion plans you'll be the first to lecture him on the error of his ways- as the omnipotent nutty nigel already knows it will just be banks of empty seats, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I notice you didn't quote me so I'll ask again ....please Mr Carrow could you point me to the posters living in this myopic bubble?

I'd also prefer you didn't misrepresent me as I have said on here that I am in favour of stadium expansion. Putting posters in little boxes to suit your debating style is as unhelpful as it ever was.

The discussion, and good discussion in the main, has been about the different views of how and when it could be done.

My comment about having the empty seats for in case people want them is no different from your assertion there are thousands waiting for it to happen. The truth is we don't know.

Edited by nutty nigel

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'm sure you are but in what economic reality does it make sense to spend money on expansion in order to offer cheaper pricing. If expansion cannot at least pay for itself then there is no incentive to take it on. NCFC are not part of Social Services, whatever they decide has to be financialy viable based upon projected income. The problem is the nature of that income can rise or fall substatially based upon on field performances that cannot be accurately forecast.

If this was an easy decision it would already have been taken.

Because it's not absolute.

The stand would be a financial benefit in times when we are selling more tickets than we do right now while offering a chance to make prices more reasonable when the time comes giving the opportunity to people or families who currently won't go on the current pricing.

Essentially I believe the stand will more than pay for itself over a sensible timeline. The fact that tickets may be reduced at a point of time doesn't make this untrue.

The stand shouldn't be built at a time like now, where the chance to stay in the league is massive and narrowly missing out because you sunk a load of money Into bricks rather than the squad which now means you lose out on hundreds of millions would be stupid. But give it a couple of years with the squads wage bill  rising year on year the longer we stay up the club will surely accept it's time and the support is there 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:
2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Anyhow, the chances are that if we stay in the PL for a while, we could fill a 32-35,000 stadium quite easily for many of the matches.

It's easy to make statements based on wishful thinking but where is the evidence for this. I just don't see these extra 5 to 8 thousand clamouring for tickets on any sort of regular basis.

 

I'm of the attitude that if we do well, we will attract bigger crowds - and have the stadium to match that.  Imagine a scenario where we do really well - that our new methodology and way of playing takes the PL by storm and we are up there with the best for several seasons.......it could happen...and wouldn't it be great if we had the stadium to cope with that? 

You could equally look at it from the other perspective and say we could get relegated straight away and there is no need for expansion....but then from time to time there are going to be games that are special in any season, cup games or whatever.

i simply think that if the money can be found it ought to be done - a better stadium, better for existing fans and better for more people to get in when needed.  There has been a lot been made of how we should invest in the club rather than players....that PL money should be used to build the club infrastructure.....not spent on vast salaries and risk another crisis of finances.  Surely stadium expansion comes under the infrastructure improvements policy, that has seen Colney transformed? 

An extension of the City Stand seems the obvious solution and one that would cause minimal disturbance to existing seating.  I hope it happens - not just to get more fans in, but to make it a better stadium.

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1 hour ago, ThorpeCanary said:

Because it's not absolute.

The stand would be a financial benefit in times when we are selling more tickets than we do right now while offering a chance to make prices more reasonable when the time comes giving the opportunity to people or families who currently won't go on the current pricing.

Essentially I believe the stand will more than pay for itself over a sensible timeline. The fact that tickets may be reduced at a point of time doesn't make this untrue.

The stand shouldn't be built at a time like now, where the chance to stay in the league is massive and narrowly missing out because you sunk a load of money Into bricks rather than the squad which now means you lose out on hundreds of millions would be stupid. But give it a couple of years with the squads wage bill  rising year on year the longer we stay up the club will surely accept it's time and the support is there 

Oh well, I give up. I'm obviously wasting my time trying to explain the economic realities. If a shiny new stand was presently feasible we would already be building it.

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33 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

 

I'm of the attitude that if we do well, we will attract bigger crowds - and have the stadium to match that.  Imagine a scenario where we do really well - that our new methodology and way of playing takes the PL by storm and we are up there with the best for several seasons.......it could happen...and wouldn't it be great if we had the stadium to cope with that? 

You could equally look at it from the other perspective and say we could get relegated straight away and there is no need for expansion....but then from time to time there are going to be games that are special in any season, cup games or whatever.

i simply think that if the money can be found it ought to be done - a better stadium, better for existing fans and better for more people to get in when needed.  There has been a lot been made of how we should invest in the club rather than players....that PL money should be used to build the club infrastructure.....not spent on vast salaries and risk another crisis of finances.  Surely stadium expansion comes under the infrastructure improvements policy, that has seen Colney transformed? 

An extension of the City Stand seems the obvious solution and one that would cause minimal disturbance to existing seating.  I hope it happens - not just to get more fans in, but to make it a better stadium.

I don't disagree with anything in that hope other than to say that in the light of financial reality it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

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51 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Oh well, I give up. I'm obviously wasting my time trying to explain the economic realities. If a shiny new stand was presently feasible we would already be building it.

I cannot see why it wont be feasible this year or very soon.

I doubt our cost base exceeds the likely income from the coming season.  We could use the difference in lots of ways, one of which is expansion. Other options are available of course. Even if this us not possible over one season it might be over a couple, especially if sales are forced upon us.

The last time we were in this position we spent the difference not on a new stand but on klose, Naismith and Brady.  Time before that it was RVW and Hooper.  

Just because we spent the money elsewhere last time doesnt mean expansion wasn't feasible before,  only that it was not the preferred option. 

  One might argue that the 'success' of our previous choices and the new paradigm we ought be seeing emerge mean that expansion is not only feasible now but by far the best option on the table .

And I wish people would stop with the argument that expansion soon is only an economic question.  It's much more than that.   We dont ask how much profit we will make on this player or that manager - we ask  if they will make the club better or the football more enjoyable. Potential profit  is a smaller detail.  Why should a stand be any different ?  

If we can attract more fans but must cut admission prices leaving match day income unchanged I'd still be in favour of expansion. Not at any price, but probably at the price of hooep, rvw and naismith....

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I don't disagree with anything in that hope other than to say that in the light of financial reality it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

If it was happening anytime soon I doubt we would have sold all those season tickets since December. 

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