Move Ground to move forward.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

46 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

In order to address the two posts above at once, I'll put forward a suggestion. 

If we stay up this year, we sell the two of the four high value assets in the squad which I mentioned earlier. That should raise around £50m after a good Premier League season. That money will come into the club over a period of three to five years, and we then invest £20m of it on their replacements and £30m on the stand, with both of those two investments covered instantly without the need for any external bank loans, interest etc.

Best case scenario? We stay up again, we have the stand, and everyone's happy. Worst case scenario? We go down. But the stand is there (or at least under construction) and there's no debt because it's all been covered. We may not fill it every week in the second tier, but that's when we can subsidise tickets for kids and build for the future. And then when we get promoted back to the Premier League, the stand is there.

In the past decade, teams who are non-established in the Premier League or pushing to reach it like Cardiff, Brighton, Wolves and Bristol City have all invested, and over the next decade you can guarantee that several others will others invest too.

Where are you suggesting we build a new stadium?

[Mr Angry 1,545]

1 hour ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

And how many of those clubs have expanded their stadiums in recent times? Barely any; a few of them have lower capacities than us too.

Of those 13 other sides, 5 have moved to new grounds in recent times and Watford and Wolves have expanded their stadiums-that leaves Villa, Burnley, Palace, Newcastle, Sheff Utd and us. 

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

5 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

Of those 13 other sides, 5 have moved to new grounds in recent times and Watford and Wolves have expanded their stadiums-that leaves Villa, Burnley, Palace, Newcastle, Sheff Utd and us. 

To be fair, Wolves did expand, and that stand was virtually empty during a lot of their barren years. It was a financial millstone until they changed owners (and started filling it up when things on the pitch turned better)

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Oh I miss Tangie and his fag packet accounting. If we could sell two players and replace them with two others for 20m and a new stand it would be a no brainer...

Where do we sign🙃

[SwindonCanary 455]

23 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Shhhhh, the adults are talking 

just because I'm right !

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

21 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Where are you suggesting we build a new stadium?

Nowhere did I suggest that...

Or was that a joke that's gone over my head?

12 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Oh I miss Tangie and his fag packet accounting. If we could sell two players and replace them with two others for 20m and a new stand it would be a no brainer...

Where do we sign🙃

Yeah, I know, it's too simple to be feasible, otherwise it would have been suggested by now.

But as a genuine question, why would it not be feasible? There are clearly genuine reasons that I haven't thought about, mainly the fact we're risking relegation by taking money out of the playing budget, but I'm sure there are others which some people would be more than happy to tell me about...

Edited June 23, 2019 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Nowhere did I suggest that...

Yeah, I know, it's too simple to be feasible, otherwise it would have been suggested by now.

But as a genuine question, why would it not be feasible? There are clearly genuine reasons that I haven't thought about, mainly the fact we're risking relegation by taking money out of the playing budget, but I'm sure there are others which some people would be more than happy to tell me about...

Sorry, I thought it was you that started the thread. Apologies. I don’t think demand is massively outweighing supply at the moment.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Hoola Han Solo

[Indy 3,283]

14 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Oh I miss Tangie and his fag packet accounting. If we could sell two players and replace them with two others for 20m and a new stand it would be a no brainer...

Where do we sign🙃

What we wasted on Naismith’s & Jarvis on fees and wages would have paid for that new stand! 😂

[ricardo 7,345]

Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

8 minutes ago, Indy said:

What we wasted on Naismith’s & Jarvis on fees and wages would have paid for that new stand! 😂

I guess that works with an HB and 10 woodbines 🙃

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

9 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Sorry, I thought it was you that started the thread. Apologies. I don’t think demand is massively outweighing supply at the moment.

Apology accepted. 

As for your second point, no it isn't massively outweighing supply but it's been very much on the borderline for a long, long time: something there's more demand, and sometimes there more supply. And as I've said, it will have to be done at some point in the long-term future, so we may as well do it whilst we're strong financially.

[Indy 3,283]

To be fair I started the thread based on the article but wanted to know what the younger generation thinks, as stated we’ve had this debate sooo many times.

Just for kicks, I’ve been to a good few grounds old and new, Leicester at filbert street, Southampton at the Dell, Roker park Sunderland, Baseball ground and all a damn sight better grounds now then those old ****ty grounds, but I bet there were the same old boys saying the same thing back then as some old guard here.

Finances will alway be budgeted at the squad, improvements, bills etc. So updating the ground on capacity will always be low priority for our club without any major investment, even seven or eight seasons of top flight football would probably not be enough as spare money will always be needed to just compete at this level.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Well you're no spring chicken Indy. If the youngsters were to describe you there'd probably be a few fuddy-duddy references if not fossil ones.

Young or old shouldn't be a defining line on opinions. Anyway, when it comes to football tickets your middle-aged judgement isn't the best.....

[Felixfan 53]

10 minutes ago, Indy said:

To be fair I started the thread based on the article but wanted to know what the younger generation thinks, as stated we’ve had this debate sooo many times.

Just for kicks, I’ve been to a good few grounds old and new, Leicester at filbert street, Southampton at the Dell, Roker park Sunderland, Baseball ground and all a damn sight better grounds now then those old ****ty grounds, but I bet there were the same old boys saying the same thing back then as some old guard here.

Finances will alway be budgeted at the squad, improvements, bills etc. So updating the ground on capacity will always be low priority for our club without any major investment, even seven or eight seasons of top flight football would probably not be enough as spare money will always be needed to just compete at this level.

Well said.

. I doubt there are many younger fans on this site and the old guard are by nature risk averse.

[ricardo 7,345]

Have a look at who actually owns those stadiums.😉

[Badger 2,405]

21 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But as a genuine question, why would it not be feasible? There are clearly genuine reasons that I haven't thought about, mainly the fact we're risking relegation by taking money out of the playing budget, but I'm sure there are others which some people would be more than happy to tell me about...

I don't think that it is unfeasible per se, in fact I would go further and say that at some stage it will become necessary. It is really a question of timing.

A bigger stand, assuming that it was sold out would provide beneficial extra income. Assuming that there is the space to create facilities similar to the South Stand, there may also be extra income to be earned from office spaces and other commercial income. However, we need to recognise that the extra income generated would be very much less than the income obtained from the TV money of the Premier League. Therefore, doing what we can to maximise our time in the EPL has to be the priority. 

This objective can be achieved in two ways - not getting relegated (which we cannot ensure) and being in a strong financial position to maximise our chances of re-promotion in as short a period as possible.  We can ensure the latter but to do so, need to insure that we do not have significant debt if relegated. One of our main advantages in the Championship is that we are a relatively big club without onerous debt - our "football budget" in this context should ensure that we remain competitive. Large debt could be very burdensome in this circumstance.

Give it a couple of years in the EPL, which would guarantee us three rather than two years parachute payments as well as enable us to develop a very strong financial base and perhaps then this is the time to look at this - again I would reiterate that my preference would be that it was funded through player sales - the way things are going, it would only take one player!

[Bill 1,788]

15 minutes ago, Indy said:

Finances will alway be budgeted at the squad, improvements, bills etc. So updating the ground on capacity will always be low priority for our club without any major investment, even seven or eight seasons of top flight football would probably not be enough as spare money will always be needed to just compete at this level.

Well at least we seem to have agreed that it will cost money - as opposed to the earlier guff from some of the not too bright that e should increase the capacity because that would actually make us money !

We came back down to the Championship a couple of seasons back with a wage bill that could not be met, nor could we get the likes of Naismith, Oliveira off that wage bill either..

The concern in this instance is a loan to fund ths would not be a three year contract, it would more than likely be ten years minimum. Who can say where we will be then, or what football's finances will be either.

If the club can ring fence, say, five million a time over the next three seasons then fine, any development would then not be a long term debt. And that is what concerns the club. Being burdened with a loss that can be covered in the PL but would be devasting a few years in the Championship.

[Indy 3,283]

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Well you're no spring chicken Indy. If the youngsters were to describe you there'd probably be a few fuddy-duddy references if not fossil ones.

Young or old shouldn't be a defining line on opinions. Anyway, when it comes to football tickets your middle-aged judgement isn't the best.....

Exactly we’re old with 40, 50 years of baggage......just because I gave my season ticket up isn’t bad judgment matey, I gave my ticket up for a number of reasons the main one being those I went to footy with either moved away, dropped out or died!

Through I’ll health for my partner we decided that other activities were priority after nearly 40 years I don’t regret my choice.

hitting 50 this year means I’m old school so I’d love to know what the younger generation priorities are, nice big ground or old ground with history, do we need to move on to attract young players wanting to play infront of a 32k crowd in a brand new stadium? Just asking the question from a new perspective.....only the same old people with the same old attitudes come on this thread......might just be this forum is full of old fans! 

[Badger 2,405]

4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Have a look at who actually owns those stadiums.😉

Good point - not in all cases, but often those "generous" owners ensure that the ground is owned by a different company to the football club. 

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Good point - not in all cases, but often those "generous" owners ensure that the ground is owned by a different company to the football club. 

Is that good or bad? 

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, Bill said:

Being burdened with a loss that can be covered in the PL but would be devasting a few years in the Championship.

I agree - a big fear of mine would be that it could threaten Category One status for the academy. There is only so much that you can take from the first team budget before we start to lose some of the natural advantages we enjoy in the Championship.

[Bill 1,788]

Just now, Indy said:

Is that good or bad? 

check what is happening at Bury, look at Brighton and Blackpool etc

[Indy 3,283]

4 minutes ago, Bill said:

check what is happening at Bury, look at Brighton and Blackpool etc

What’s happening at Cardiff, Southampton, Derby etc.? I don’t know please tell.

[Badger 2,405]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Is that good or bad? 

Very definitely bad! Off the top of my head...

1. No big assets - no security. Financially very fragile.

2. Rental income to be paid and often other commercial opportunities - e.g. Bars/ Food etc goes to the ground owner, not the club.

3. Makes a future sale of the club incredibly complex. Would you buy a football club without a ground?

4. Look at poor Coventry! 

Of course, there are exceptions - if you are well in with the right politicians you could get a massive stadium at a peppercorn rent! 😉

[ricardo 7,345]

Pride Park and St Mary's are owned by the club's owners

NCFC own Carrow Rd

[Bill 1,788]

Just now, Badger said:

I agree - a big fear of mine would be that it could threaten Category One status for the academy. There is only so much that you can take from the first team budget before we start to lose some of the natural advantages we enjoy in the Championship.

And that is a measure of how far the debate has moved. To one where it is understood that extra capacity would not generate extra funds but would have to e subsidised.

Which as Ricardo has said, the current expectation is based on a recent run of success not on us being almost gauranteed that success.

Our attendance is also based on the club keeping the price lower so as to stimulate demand. We would have to further cut prices if supply increased.

Basically the club knows this, that's why there has been no serious talk about it. And predictably the same whines come up as soon as the demand increases by us being in the PL.

 

[ricardo 7,345]

Several clubs who used to own their grounds sold them and now pay rent.

Portman Rd is owned by Ipswich council

[Bill 1,788]

10 minutes ago, Indy said:

What’s happening at Cardiff, Southampton, Derby etc.? I don’t know please tell.

Derby

" Although the financing of the stadium's construction was carefully structured so that the club paid and owned the ground without encroaching on funds reserved for the development of the team, the club's eventual relegation from the top flight in 2002 saw it enter financial crisis^[10] and eventually it was temporarily entered into receivership by The Co-operative Bank, who instantly installed a new board composed of John Sleightholme, Jeremy Keith and Steve Harding, for the cost of £1 each. Financial circumstances worsened as the debt spiralled to £30 million plus and an unpopular^[11] refinancing scheme was put in place which saw the stadium sold to the "mysterious"^[12]Panama-based ABC Corporation and the club paying rent of £1 million a year to play there "

[nutty nigel 7,509]

56 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Nowhere did I suggest that...

Or was that a joke that's gone over my head?

Yeah, I know, it's too simple to be feasible, otherwise it would have been suggested by now.

But as a genuine question, why would it not be feasible? There are clearly genuine reasons that I haven't thought about, mainly the fact we're risking relegation by taking money out of the playing budget, but I'm sure there are others which some people would be more than happy to tell me about...

All I can tell you is what Alan Bowkett said in 2013....

However it seems the board are still no closer to being able to increase the stadium’s capacity of just over 27,000 seats.

Chairman Alan Bowkett said rebuilding the City Stand for a capacity of 35,000 would cost around £30m, which would be mortgaged over 20 years and cost around £2.5m per year in payments, which should be covered by around £3m from new ticket sales each season.

Mr Bowkett said: “You are forecasting for 20 years and you would have to achieve an average occupancy of 35,000 over the 20 years of about 94pc.

“Now the key thing for us is staying in the Premier League, what keeps us in the Premier League is investment in what I term the software, back office, football management, football players, and I cannot guarantee that we are going to be in the Premier League for the next 20 years, no one can.

“So that’s the big question we have to face ourselves with and I think having just taken a huge burden away from the football club, probably the board would prefer to invest in the software rather than the hardware at the moment and that’s what we are doing.”

Mr Bowkett said the other problem would be how to seat season ticket holders in the City Stand for a whole season, with the club having the highest ratio of season tickets to seats in the league.

He added that the potential winter break for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar could even help, continuing: “Then there’s the second question as to how would you do it and we cannot see taking the stand down and rebuilding it without having a full season of non-occupancy.

“So as I jokingly said to David (McNally), well maybe if we drop back down to League One again we could do it, but he said ‘we still got 23,000 people turning up then’, so that’s the physical difficulty.”

Chief executive David McNally added: “You’re more likely to be a consistent Premier League club with average gates of 35,000 then you are with crowds of 26,800 so it’s something that we would wish to do in the mid-term but we have the dilemmas of the practical solution of the accounting supporters, which seems really difficult, and of course the cash.”

 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

8 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Pride Park and St Mary's are owned by the club's owners

NCFC own Carrow Rd

That's a difference that many posters over the years haven't been able to grasp. If you go to the small club in the south you will see the training ground isn't owned by the football club either.