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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Over 23,000 for the third round of a faded, jaded competition we had no chance of winning, against a third tier team, after a busy festive period, where season ticket holders had to pay.

And that is a sign that we wont get regularly make use of an expansion? 

Maybe it would not get filled more than 50% of the time but why is that the benchmark?    Who says it would only work of we fill it? Is half full not something?

The eleven largest gates of all time at Carrow Road have been FA Cup matches and in our entire League history there have only been nine league gates above 35k

Edited by ricardo
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4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The eleven largest gates of all time at Carrow Road have been FA Cup matches and in our entire League history there have only been nine league gates above 35k

Why is this at all relevant for the future?

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28 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

That's fair enough Barbe. It's all opinions. Just out of intetest how many more tickets would you actually buy if the stadium was bigger?

I was at all those games. Portsmouth was sold through price. I could take all ten grandkids for a tenner. It was full of families and lovely to see. The Southampton game was totally different. A much more "attractive" game but would have cost me £75 to take the grandkids. I reckon we'd sell out a bigger stadium most weeks if tickets were a tenner and kids for a quid. 

I'm definitely of the school that we make the club as accessible as possible. Clearly this means expansion but could mean we have to have very attractive prices too. 

We've moved away from short term views on the pitch and the training ground. The next logical step is to build the supporter base.  Inevitably this will mean a hit in the short to medium term 

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1 hour ago, Felixfan said:

Why is this at all relevant for the future?

Because there is no basis historically to expect that a 35k stadium is ever likely to be needed in any foreseeable future.

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2 hours ago, ricardo said:

Because there is no basis historically to expect that a 35k stadium is ever likely to be needed in any foreseeable future.

With an increasing population, the fact that we have no competition for over a hundred miles and Premiership football on offer means that we are uniquely placed to take advantage of the situation that we find ourselves in. 

As for 'historically' a quick look down the road shows what happens when all you do is look backwards. 

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On 15/06/2019 at 11:42, nutty nigel said:

Well I don't see that tbh and it's a warped view of ST holders.

What I see are supporters who want increased capacity when the sun is out but the option of withdrawing support when it clouds over again. In the lifetime of any new stand there would be more cloud than sunshine. If we commit to a new stand would those who want it commit to filling it?

 

Nutty, it doesn't have to be filled to be worthwhile. The South stand's capacity was doubled from 4,000 to 8,000. Once that was paid for (and I know that was not easy but...) any usage above 4,000 from that moment until who know how many decades ahead represented, represents and will continue to represent pure profit. In terms of ticket sales and extra money from catering and commercial. You didn't and don't have to fill all those extra 4,000 extra to bring in extra money.

The same with the main stand. Double that to take capacity to around 31,000. You don't have to fill all those 4,000 extra seats to pay off the debt. Money can come from good husbandry, especially given the new approach. And once paid for, as with the South Stand, any usage above the 4,000 that was there is extra money the club otherwise would not receive.

There is a common misconception that if you are in the Premier League money from tickets sales and catering and commercial doesn't matter because of the TV money. Not so, and particularly not so for a club like Norwich City. And away from the PL, maximising non-TV money becomes even more important.

For expansion to make sense in the long run, and that is the only way these decisions can be assessed, there do do not have to be 4,000 or 5,000 extra NCFC fans (let along an extra 8,000) out there who will turn up to every game no matter which division we are in. There needs only to be one or two thousand extra who will turn up some of the time.

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As has been mentioned, the extra capacity would allow the Club to bring back kids for a quid or similar incentives. Which will secure our fanbase in the future, the fact that the Stadium is currently full means that it's hard to attract new support. 

I've heard that some people are taking their kids to 1p5wich just so they can watch a game, we don't want that to become a trend do we?

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You must have made that up Splendid! I have never heard of such a thing and can't imagine any city fan doing it. In any case it hasn't been that hard to get tickets until post Christmas so why weren't these people buying them?

The idea that no families are getting into CR is a myth. I see plenty and there's three generations of my family there every game with me being the only old codger..

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27 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Nutty, it doesn't have to be filled to be worthwhile. The South stand's capacity was doubled from 4,000 to 8,000. Once that was paid for (and I know that was not easy but...) any usage above 4,000 from that moment until who know how many decades ahead represented, represents and will continue to represent pure profit. In terms of ticket sales and extra money from catering and commercial. You didn't and don't have to fill all those extra 4,000 extra to bring in extra money.

The same with the main stand. Double that to take capacity to around 31,000. You don't have to fill all those 4,000 extra seats to pay off the debt. Money can come from good husbandry, especially given the new approach. And once paid for, as with the South Stand, any usage above the 4,000 that was there is extra money the club otherwise would not receive.

There is a common misconception that if you are in the Premier League money from tickets sales and catering and commercial doesn't matter because of the TV money. Not so, and particularly not so for a club like Norwich City. And away from the PL, maximising non-TV money becomes even more important.

For expansion to make sense in the long run, and that is the only way these decisions can be assessed, there do do not have to be 4,000 or 5,000 extra NCFC fans (let along an extra 8,000) out there who will turn up to every game no matter which division we are in. There needs only to be one or two thousand extra who will turn up some of the time.

That makes sense Purple but as Rickyyy said earlier, if it was viable it would surely have happened. The option must be to replace the City Stand but so far successive boards have been afraid to bite the bullet. I guess the reason is the vast difference in income between the Prem and Champs. Bowkett and McNally were forever saying how difficult it was to run a business in those conditions. They used to talk of doing it if we stayed up longer than three seasons but being established doesn't often happen and there are at least a dozen PL clubs in the race to 40 points.

I guess the other problem they face is fitting in the fans while the stand is being built. Would it even be possible to fit them in? Just as long as they don't put Tilly over with me.....

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15 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

You must have made that up Splendid! I have never heard of such a thing and can't imagine any city fan doing it. In any case it hasn't been that hard to get tickets until post Christmas so why weren't these people buying them?

The idea that no families are getting into CR is a myth. I see plenty and there's three generations of my family there every game with me being the only old codger..

Not making it up, where would be the benefit of that? I've read it, can't remember where and you're right to question it. What I will say is that just because you were indoctrinated into the Club as a youngster and your family followed doesn't mean that everyone has the same experience. 

When I was a kid most people supported their local Club, today you see them strolling around the Castle Mall wearing Barcelona and Real shirts, it's brand football and it doesn't take much for them to change Clubs. 

If Mum and Dad want to encourage their little darlings and they can't get into Carrow Road there's another option down the Road only to happy to take your money on the gate. 

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9 hours ago, splendidrush said:

With an increasing population, the fact that we have no competition for over a hundred miles and Premiership football on offer means that we are uniquely placed to take advantage of the situation that we find ourselves in. 

As for 'historically' a quick look down the road shows what happens when all you do is look backwards. 

I have heard the same argument made at AGM's stretching back into the dim and distant past. However for a full house match the prospective attendance now is no bigger than it was fifty years ago and I would argue that it is probably smaller. There are lots of factors involved in that and most of them can be linked to pricing in the modern game. Fifty years ago you could have a couple of pints and wander down to pay on the gate at a cost of barely more than you had paid in the pub. Yes, while in the Premier League they could cut prices but then what happens when they are relegated? It would be suicidal to commit funds to a long term project without the certainty of being able to meet the debt. The past is littered with example where this went wrong and one of them is just a little way down the A140.

As for being uniquely placed, well in case I am much mistaken Norwich has not moved further from the larger centre's of population in recent years, however I would agree that communications are certainly better. During successful periods we could probably fill a 30k ground for the big matches and an overall average of about 28k might be achievable. Kids for a quid is a nice idea but it was introduced because gates were floundering. I can't see the club venturing on a £30+ million project just to sell seats for a quid, its not going to happen. The other point about increased capacity is that a large number of fans would see it as a better opportunity for casual attendence and thus obviate the need to commit to a season ticket.

I repeat, I would love to see the main stand redeveloped and an increase to something over 31k and I am sure that the powers that be at CR would like it too. In view of the apparent logistical and financial realities I would have to agree that there is no pressing need for an early commitment to put this in place.

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Playing in front of a crowd that is approaching a full house week in week out whatever the division we are in is a factor in what makes Norwich such a special club. During less successful periods playing in front of a full house surely helps the team more than seeing empty seats. We have had no end of interviews last season saying how important fan support is.

We have also just witnessed what many of us would describe as one of our most exciting seasons ever but we did not totally sell out many games. Probably largely due to clubs below the top tier not taking up their full allocation, another factor, and seats that would need to be filled by more home support in an enlarged stadium. I am not aware from casual seat buying friends that they ever had any real difficulty last season.

Yes there are examples of club’s growing their fan base, Brighton and West Ham being the obvious ones, but this is on the back of a new stadium. Which takes us to the new stadium argument. I personally would not favour a move away from Carrow Rd for both sentimental and practical reasons. The proximity to the station makes travelling to home games viable for many of us season ticket holders based in the south, so another factor.

All that said I would love to see an increased capacity at Carrow Rd, probably by redeveloping the City Stand, but I caveat this by saying only if we can largely fill the extra capacity particularly when we are in the Championship. I get the financial arguments but would not want that to be at the expense of loss of atmosphere. Be careful what you wish for!

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10 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

That makes sense Purple but as Rickyyy said earlier, if it was viable it would surely have happened. The option must be to replace the City Stand but so far successive boards have been afraid to bite the bullet. I guess the reason is the vast difference in income between the Prem and Champs. Bowkett and McNally were forever saying how difficult it was to run a business in those conditions. They used to talk of doing it if we stayed up longer than three seasons but being established doesn't often happen and there are at least a dozen PL clubs in the race to 40 points.

I guess the other problem they face is fitting in the fans while the stand is being built. Would it even be possible to fit them in? Just as long as they don't put Tilly over with me.....

Nutty, IF anything has changed, or is changing, and I am not saying it has, it is the new strategy of not spending every last penny either to get to the Premier League or to stay there. The accounts out in October 2020 will show or not, but If some money is being saved this season, what for? Just sensible finance, not lumbering ourselves with expensive long-term contracts, or for some project?

And as, said, if we stay up into a second year, we have at least two years of PL TV money and three years of parachute payments, and in that case three years of parachute payments that don't need to be spent on those now abandoned massive contracts.

Some very crude number-crunching on the South Stand. Once that was paid for, in the 2012-13 season, I think, those 4,000 extra seats became pure profit, and have pretty much be sold out the whole six seasons. Assuming 600 pounds for a season ticket there, that has brought in 14.4m, without factoring in catering and commercial. Half-occupancy would have still have produced well over 1m a season. In the long run extra capacity does not have to be fully used all the time to make financial sense.

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11 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I guess the other problem they face is fitting in the fans while the stand is being built. Would it even be possible to fit them in? Just as long as they don't put Tilly over with me.....

It should be possible to build over the existing stand whilst it can still stay "live"

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16 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

It should be possible to build over the existing stand whilst it can still stay "live"

 I'm not sure this is true. 

With the South Stand you have to bear in mind the facility that the building offers. You have commercial tenants in there , meeting facilities, corporate boxes and kitchens , which I'm sure that NCFC would want to replicate in a new City Stand . The opportunity to build out into Carrow Road, increase the footprint, the changing rooms and so on would be too good to miss. That piece of road is now largely obsolete (although the bus lane hasn't helped access!) . A new stand wouldn't be just about seats. 

Simply building on top of the old stand isn't likely - in fact I thought a feasibility study had been done by UEA at some point, and decided that the old myth that it had originally been built with a second tier in mind wasn't correct? 

 

 

 

Edited by Graham Paddons Beard

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58 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

Some very crude number-crunching on the South Stand. Once that was paid for, in the 2012-13 season, I think, those 4,000 extra seats became pure profit, and have pretty much be sold out the whole six seasons. Assuming 600 pounds for a season ticket there, that has brought in 14.4m, without factoring in catering and commercial. Half-occupancy would have still have produced well over 1m a season. In the long run extra capacity does not have to be fully used all the time to make financial sense.

There may have been 4k extra seats but there weren't 4k extra bums. Many just moved from other areas of the ground.

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1 minute ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

 

 I'm not sure this is true. 

With the South Stand you have to bear in mind the facility that the building offers. You have commercial tenants in there , meeting facilities, corporate boxes and kitchens , which I'm sure that NCFC would want to replicate in a new City Stand . The opportunity to build out into Carrow Road, increase the footprint, the changing rooms and so on would be too good to miss. That piece of road is now largely obsolete (although the bus lane hasn't helped access!) . A new stand wouldn't be just about seats. 

Simply building on top of the old stand isn't likely - in fact I thought a feasibility study had been done by UEA at some point, and decided that the old myth that it had originally been built with a second tier in mind wasn't correct? 

 

 

 

not a second tier, but an extension higher and behind the original...like the top tiers of the Barclay and River Ends

Foundations, new services and existing service diversion can be done without too much disruption to patrons of the City Stand, the bit that needs some thought would be removal of existing roof and construction of a new one.

Get the timing right, and manipulate the fixture list at end of one season and start of next, and there is a four month window to undertake the work that needs to be done with no-one sat underneath...or potentially spread over 2 summers if it can´t be done in 4 months

 

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7 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

 I'm not sure this is true. 

With the South Stand you have to bear in mind the facility that the building offers. You have commercial tenants in there , meeting facilities, corporate boxes and kitchens , which I'm sure that NCFC would want to replicate in a new City Stand . The opportunity to build out into Carrow Road, increase the footprint, the changing rooms and so on would be too good to miss. That piece of road is now largely obsolete (although the bus lane hasn't helped access!) . A new stand wouldn't be just about seats. 

Simply building on top of the old stand isn't likely - in fact I thought a feasibility study had been done by UEA at some point, and decided that the old myth that it had originally been built with a second tier in mind wasn't correct?

This plays into the shear logistics of this, how would the club operate for the 18 months to 2 years that the stand wasn't fully operational, it could only mean some season tickets foregoing games.

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If we managed to stay on the Prem and did expand, then for every 1000 seats, 100 would have to be allocated for away support.

Do we charge away fans more than casual home fans?

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I have no idea what the accounts will say at the end of the year but lets say they show us £20-30 million in profit.  What should that mo ey be spent on

1)nothing, its important to have a buffer for the bad times (we can find ways to reduce corporation  tax).  This club has nearly gone bust in relatively recent years, have we learnt nothing?

2) the training ground.  We need first class facilities. It's pointless having  top quality academy products training in a bog when they graduate.

3) top players!  A club of our resources can only compete by putting every penny onto the pitch.  I don't see  Bournemouth suffering from not having 35,000 at a every game

4) a new stand.  We've reached a limit and demand is suppressed to the point that we risk the future of the club, just as others are growing.  Plus there are so many other benefits beyond extra match day income

5) support runs two ways.  Let's reduce prices and improve facilities at the stadium.  We may not be the biggest but we can give the best matchday experience.

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18 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

If we managed to stay on the Prem and did expand, then for every 1000 seats, 100 would have to be allocated for away support.

Do we charge away fans more than casual home fans?

Not quite, the ruling is 10% or 3000, whichever is fewer, though in the prem at least one block has to be pitchside. There are ways around this though if it is not practical/safe to offer those things and the prem agree with it.

As for tickets, not this season, it's £30 per bum for either (not including membership costs obviously😉)

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25 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:
34 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

With the South Stand you have to bear in mind the facility that the building offers. You have commercial tenants in there , meeting facilities, corporate boxes and kitchens , which I'm sure that NCFC would want to replicate in a new City Stand . The opportunity to build out into Carrow Road, increase the footprint, the changing rooms and so on would be too good to miss. That piece of road is now largely obsolete (although the bus lane hasn't helped access!) . A new stand wouldn't be just about seats. 

Simply building on top of the old stand isn't likely - in fact I thought a feasibility study had been done by UEA at some point, and decided that the old myth that it had originally been built with a second tier in mind wasn't correct?

not a second tier, but an extension higher and behind the original...like the top tiers of the Barclay and River Ends

Foundations, new services and existing service diversion can be done without too much disruption to patrons of the City Stand, the bit that needs some thought would be removal of existing roof and construction of a new one.

Get the timing right, and manipulate the fixture list at end of one season and start of next, and there is a four month window to undertake the work that needs to be done with no-one sat underneath...or potentially spread over 2 summers if it can´t be done in 4 months

This is the obvious thing - an extension behind the present city stand.  The access road could remain in place under pillars of the extension, as at several clubs (Old Trafford for instance).   The space is there, the back of the existing stand can be altered and adapted to the new extension and minimum dispruption to fans.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, ricardo said:

There may have been 4k extra seats but there weren't 4k extra bums. Many just moved from other areas of the ground.

The South stand rebuild roughly increased capacity from 23,000 to 27,000. In those six season since the debt had been paid off our average attendance figure was 26,400.

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26 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I have no idea what the accounts will say at the end of the year but lets say they show us £20-30 million in profit.  What should that mo ey be spent on

1)nothing, its important to have a buffer for the bad times (we can find ways to reduce corporation  tax).  This club has nearly gone bust in relatively recent years, have we learnt nothing?

2) the training ground.  We need first class facilities. It's pointless having  top quality academy products training in a bog when they graduate.

3) top players!  A club of our resources can only compete by putting every penny onto the pitch.  I don't see  Bournemouth suffering from not having 35,000 at a every game

4) a new stand.  We've reached a limit and demand is suppressed to the point that we risk the future of the club, just as others are growing.  Plus there are so many other benefits beyond extra match day income

5) support runs two ways.  Let's reduce prices and improve facilities at the stadium.  We may not be the biggest but we can give the best matchday experience.

I will be amazed if we show any profit at the end of the year. Unless we get relegated so don't have to pay bonuses. We're already spending millions now and we haven't got any of the money yet.

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9 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The South stand rebuild roughly increased capacity from 23,000 to 27,000. In those six season since the debt had been paid off our average attendance figure was 26,400.

Si a shortfall of around 600. Is there any analysis of what causes this?

For instance, are the untaken seats  mainly restricted view, or seats on their own.  Are they paid for by people who don't then  turn up, or are they simply unattractive at the price?

Are attendances  being dragged down by kick off times and days?

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How I remember this when discussed at the AGM Bowkett totally ruled out anything but a complete rebuild for the city stand. 

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I will be amazed if we show any profit at the end of the year. Unless we get relegated so don't have to pay bonuses. We're already spending millions now and we haven't got any of the money yet.

It was hypothetical.  I'd be interested to know what people would do of the money were there. 

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Hypothetically we'd love a stadium that holds at least £50,000. However if we're talking hypothetical this thread is redundant for serious discussion.

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2 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Si a shortfall of around 600. Is there any analysis of what causes this?

For instance, are the untaken seats  mainly restricted view, or seats on their own.  Are they paid for by people who don't then  turn up, or are they simply unattractive at the price?

Are attendances  being dragged down by kick off times and days?

The point, particularly given that only two of those seasons were in the Premier League, is that it is really not much of a shortfall. The vast majority of those extra 4,000 seats in the South Stand were not filled by fans moving from other parts of the ground. The more general point is that extra capacity does not have to be filled all the time to be financially worthwhile.

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17 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The point, particularly given that only two of those seasons were in the Premier League, is that it is really not much of a shortfall. The vast majority of those extra 4,000 seats in the South Stand were not filled by fans moving from other parts of the ground. The more general point is that extra capacity does not have to be filled all the time to be financially worthwhile.

Yes, I appreciate the point being made and that expansion has certainly paid off.  My question was over a new point: in as much as there is a shortfall what is behind this? 

If single seats behind pillars for tuesdays against rotherham  is what we  cant sell then the 'shortfall' is no argument against expansion at all.  If we cannot fill the best seats  for Leeds or Southampton (ie an 'average' game) it is a slightly different  proposition .

I dont think anyone will argue that we will struggle to fill 30-35 for the top games

Incidentally, I think matchday income is not even the whole economic argument and also  that other arguments are as valid as whether or not the stand pays for itself

 

 

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