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Posted (edited)

Premiership  fixture:

 Norwich City v.Sheffield Wednesday    H    0-0    13,530

Staggering and, of course,  ammunition for those against any stadium expansion. 

In fairness gates overall were much, much lower at that time and  even both derby games that season attracted gates @ c.17, 000. (and both sides were relegation fodder to boot.)

What has happened since? Has the much maligned  Sky TV with it's high out put of live games ie. exposure, caused this? Has the PL (Premiership) with it's highly paid superstars on show been good for the game in the end? After all the forecast at the time was that attendances at games would continue to decline because there was an increasing amount of alternative entertainment available for the average Joe and his other half.

The trend has not just been reversed it has been totally eliminated. Does the "never had it so good society" actually revel in all the hype?

Does this reflect the normal highs and lows nature of the way that trends and fortunes fluctuate?

Will the bubble burst?

Will we ever see gates of barely more than 13,000 watching top level football at Carrow Road ever again?

Who will end up dead? Eve or Villanelle?

It's the hype we love innit?

Edited by BroadstairsR

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I think its a lot of Londoners relocating to Norfolk who want some football action and have taken to supporting the local club.  Most "normal for Norfolk" still moaning about the cost of season tickets and fact the sausage rolls are never warm enough.

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Nonsense...did these supposed Londoners suddenly appear in their hordes at the end of the 90s/early 00s, when our attendances were steadily rising to hit (& expand) capacity?

Or was it rather a reflection of Broadstairs’ national trends, plus our special local blend? In Norwich, the post-Taylor Report (and then ‘kids for a quid’) generation was growing up with a new understanding of football spectating, and flocked to the Carra.

With those  youthful Prem-topping and Uefa cup experiences fuelling our dreams, just as City entered an era of hope and increasing attainment, so we outstayed the false dawn of Worthy’s promotion year . The new South Stand came just at the right time to accommodate the new waves of youth coming through the ranks .

That is my slightly egocentric interpretation anyway

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I've no idea how it came about but to my mind it's clear, get the new City stand built, take us up to 30/32,000 and take this opportunity to grow the Club. 

With the paupers down the road struggling to attract anything, we're primed to dominate the region there's so much potential between here and London. 

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22 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

I've no idea how it came about but to my mind it's clear, get the new City stand built, take us up to 30/32,000 and take this opportunity to grow the Club. 

With the paupers down the road struggling to attract anything, we're primed to dominate the region there's so much potential between here and London. 

Totally agree, Splendid - would love to see the City Stand brought into line with the rest of the ground, just a shame there’s not much scope because of Carrow Rd itself. 

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7 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Totally agree, Splendid - would love to see the City Stand brought into line with the rest of the ground, just a shame there’s not much scope because of Carrow Rd itself. 

There’s plenty of scope - the road behind the City Stand is not much more than a service road nowadays, you could build over it or do away with part of it. 

Ultimately though, unless and until we’ve been up for c5 years it’s not something we should be thinking about.

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16 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

There’s plenty of scope - the road behind the City Stand is not much more than a service road nowadays, you could build over it or do away with part of it. 

Ultimately though, unless and until we’ve been up for c5 years it’s not something we should be thinking about.

I agree we should build over it, turn it into a tunnel which is closed to traffic on match days. 

Disagree that we shouldn't be thinking about it. I believe that it should always be 'on the table' for discussion. 

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I remember saying in another thread recently that it's something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. The population is growing all the time, demand for tickets is increasing and other clubs of our size are investing in their grounds. We need to expand in order to not be left behind and to take advantage of the position we're in, so while we've got the Premier League money then we should think about capitalising.

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While I'm talking nonsense, I think it should mirror the Jarrold so we can put a roof on so we're not blinded by the sun in the Barclay. 

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There were many reasons crowds were low then. Robert Chase had a very negative effect on attendances which weren't as strong nationally as now and people who wanted to stand had been driven away.

The recovery was driven by  Kids For A Quid which created a whole new generation of supporters. Increasing population has obviously helped but there were 35,000 attendances in the mid 1970''s with a much lower population. 

The economics of expansion are challenging. Even if a financial institution could be found to lend the money, the club would have to sell 90% of the extra seats for 20 years to repay the loan. The other funding option is one or two very big player sales which would make relegation more likely. 

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The matter of ground expansion has been thrashed out many times on this forum and the general conclusion has been that, although made necessary by increased demand and the need to upgrade the Main Stand, it is not a viable proposition for the club at this moment in time.

If, and it's a somewhat big 'if,' we maintain Premier League status for a number of seasons then the need for  doing something about the problem will become more pressing by the year.

Neither do I quite wear the view that emphasises the long-term financial lack of viability of expansion the way dylan and his dog have  put it and feel that you have contradicted yourself in a way Mr. D. for by mentioning the 'kids for a quid' scheme as having long-term benefits that are being felt today but then ignoring the long-term benefits of increasing the fan base now (or sooner rather than later.) The many who will miss out next season could be youngsters unable to cement that particular long-term loyalty to the club that comes about from regular attendance.

Whatever, it always comes back to the need for a longish spell at the top, something we have been unable to achieve since the days of Robert Chase.

It would be nice to get 5, 000 more in. It would be nice to improve that L.1. looking Main Stand (although I would miss views of the cathedral on my television screen.)  It would nice to cement our East Anglian superiority (without bankrupting us.) It would be nice to create a bigger fan-base for the future, but it would not make sense to embark upon niceties just now.

In respect of the general picture the continuing appeal of football in the country seems seems never ending, ditto at Carrow Road.  

Is it cyclical? Will it end?

Doesn't look like it for the foreseeable.

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Does seem a bit of a catch-22.

Likely that if we are relegated, but many of our "starlets" perform, City may be decimated in the change room, while the bank struggles to hold the piles of cash being brought in - ripe situation financially that allows for an expansion.

But, of course, we will be relegated, meaning that we would need to plan for life in the championship. This would make such moves to expand the stadium seem imprudent. So we save it and make our next charge up to the premier league.

If we can establish ourselves in the prem, at what point do we decide this? Three seasons, four, five? I think we need to be looking at expansion much earlier than that, otherwise it seems a case of you can expand the stadium tomorrow; a day that never arrives. 

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55 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

The matter of ground expansion has been thrashed out many times on this forum and the general conclusion has been that, although made necessary by increased demand and the need to upgrade the Main Stand, it is not a viable proposition for the club at this moment in time.

If, and it's a somewhat big 'if,' we maintain Premier League status for a number of seasons then the need for  doing something about the problem will become more pressing by the year.

Neither do I quite wear the view that emphasises the long-term financial lack of viability of expansion the way dylan and his dog have  put it and feel that you have contradicted yourself in a way Mr. D. for by mentioning the 'kids for a quid' scheme as having long-term benefits that are being felt today but then ignoring the long-term benefits of increasing the fan base now (or sooner rather than later.) The many who will miss out next season could be youngsters unable to cement that particular long-term loyalty to the club that comes about from regular attendance.

Whatever, it always comes back to the need for a longish spell at the top, something we have been unable to achieve since the days of Robert Chase.

It would be nice to get 5, 000 more in. It would be nice to improve that L.1. looking Main Stand (although I would miss views of the cathedral on my television screen.)  It would nice to cement our East Anglian superiority (without bankrupting us.) It would be nice to create a bigger fan-base for the future, but it would not make sense to embark upon niceties just now.

In respect of the general picture the continuing appeal of football in the country seems seems never ending, ditto at Carrow Road.  

Is it cyclical? Will it end?

Doesn't look like it for the foreseeable.

I wasn't actually drawing any conclusions about expansion but merely stating the facts. I agree that we need to do it for the sake of the next generation but I can't see how we can make it happen unless I win Euromillions. If I do I'll gladly hand it over.

I am strongly against huge borrowing. Just look what happened down the road. 

The one thing that would help a little is safe standing but in the current political climate that's unlikely to happen for years. 

We are fortunate at the moment to have people running the club who can be trusted to look to the future. They know they can sell 40,000 tickets for half the games in the Premier League but how long will we be there? It looked like Stoke had become an established Premier League club but all of a sudden they are now a very ordinary Championship club. 

 

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It would be a huge long term financial risk, which, in all likelihood, would only pay for itself while we maintain Premiership status. With attendance revenue becoming a smaller and smaller part of overall income and the possibility of relegation always on the horizon for a club of our size it just isn't worth the gamble for me.

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Even if a financial institution could be found to lend the money, the club would have to sell 90% of the extra seats for 20 years to repay the loan.

This would depend upon 

1. The cost of the ground development and 

2. The number of seats and other facilities created.

The source of finance would also depend upon the cost - anybody venture a guess at what it might be to expand the City stand?

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There had been talk before of it costing around £30m I seem to remember. It does need doing, that stand it is a bit toytown.

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This may be apocryphal but more than one person has said to me that we 'own' Carrow Road (ie) it isn't the preserve of the Highways Dept but a private road that belongs to the football club?

Can anyone confirm this?

A matching stand would be great-not only a statement of intent and ambition but a commitment to the current ground and location.

But do wonder how the cost of a new stand compares with the cost of a new stadium altogether?

I read that the final cost of Sunderland's Stadium of Light, upon the expansion of the North Stand there was £24 million. Now that's back in 2000 -a comparable price to around  £28-£30 million now?

This isn't even back of cigarette packet economics but might there be a school of thought somewhere that IF we move (and please, let this not be an invitation for that chap and his Royal Norfolk Showground theory) then the clubs might yet think about moving on completely, especially as they'd get a good wedge for the current land to use as a deposit on the new land and build.

Tottenham's new stadium is going to give people a false impression of how much a new ground is going to cost. They are very much an exception and not really something that should be factored in.

I'd prefer to stay where we are 100 times out of 100. But does the current infrastructure deal with 30,000 plus as well as it does 25,000 plus, is there a tipping point where Carrow Road and its confines struggles to cope with bigger crowds?

 

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22 minutes ago, Old Shuck said:

But do wonder how the cost of a new stand compares with the cost of a new stadium altogether?

I read that the final cost of Sunderland's Stadium of Light, upon the expansion of the North Stand there was £24 million. Now that's back in 2000 -a comparable price to around  £28-£30 million now?

I don't think so... Cardiff and Brighton spent north of £50m on their new grounds I believe and they're both only around 30,000. Building a second tier on the City Stand to take our capacity to 32-33,000 would definitely be the best option.

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Building over the top of an existing stand is far more expensive than building on bare land. And there is the problem of the road behind it. I've no idea who owns it but double yellow lines were painted not long ago suggesting it doesn't belong to the club. 

I seem to remember the figure of £35m being quoted at a shareholders meeting for around 5,000 extra seats. They would bring in about £3m a year. It's possible we could do it in a year's time and rename it the Buendia Stand. Those of a certain vintage will remember Kevin Reeves paying for the River End. 

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If the sale of a young star enabled us to buy a new stand with 5000 new seats and extra facilities from which to obtain non-match-day revenue, it might be a sensible investment - certainly preferable to taking on long-term debt imo.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/06/2019 at 23:04, Branston Pickle said:

 the road behind the City Stand is not much more than a service road nowadays, you could build over it or do away with part of it. 

Ultimately though, unless and until we’ve been up for c5 years it’s not something we should be thinking about.

The road is a public highway not owned by NCFC and is maintained by Norfolk County Council so we cannot ' do away with part of it '.

Edited by TIL 1010

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Yes we can - roads can be redirected etc etc but in any case you are misunderstanding what I meant; can’t be bothered to go into it though so c’est la vie.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

The road is a public highway not owned by NCFC and is maintained by Norfolk County Council so we cannot ' do away with part of it '.

Could if it was purchased from them, obviously they would need to be agreeable, I don´t know if there are any restrictions on them selling?....I´m not saying that´s a great idea at this stage

I think if that were ever to come to pass, I guess the club would want to keep the City Stand "live" during construction, which would be a challenge, but not impossible

Edited by How I Wrote Elastic Man
typo

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