Mouras

[Samwam27 527]

Gotta feel sorry for mouras. Hat trick hero and the reason spurs are in the final and only gets to be on the bench

 

[Fromage Frais 10]

33 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

Gotta feel sorry for mouras. Hat trick hero and the reason spurs are in the final and only gets to be on the bench

 

I do also.

When I watch Kane in an actual game ie for City when on loan, in the world cup against the first half decent team and tonight....he has not looked world class to me.

I am sure he is wonderful but Spurs looked toothless tonight.

[AJ 1,218]

Absolutely mad decision by Poch to bench him, I’d be raging if I was Lucas! And after all that Kane also did nothing productive when he was on the pitch anyway!

[Mr Angry 1,554]

14 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

I do also.

When I watch Kane in an actual game ie for City when on loan, in the world cup against the first half decent team and tonight....he has not looked world class to me.

I am sure he is wonderful but Spurs looked toothless tonight.

Judging him on 3 games 6 seasons ago and his last match, and ignoring the last 5 seasons? 😳😳😳

[lake district canary 4,531]

Potty decision. All the other players see that decsion and will take a mental note - look what happens if we do well...we don't get the rewards.  How to unmotivate a player/lose players' respect in one easy lesson.

 

[kirku 1,332]

14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

How to unmotivate a player/lose players' respect in one easy lesson.

 

Poch is one of the most highly regarded managers in the league and yet you think you know how to better man manage his players than he does?

Guess Klopp is also a terrible motivator, given he did exactly the same thing with Firmino and Origi..

Good one

[lake district canary 4,531]

4 minutes ago, kirku said:

21 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

How to unmotivate a player/lose players' respect in one easy lesson.

 

Poch is one of the most highly regarded managers in the league and yet you think you know how to better man manage his players than he does?

 

Hmmm.....let me think about that one.......yes.    It's common sense man management.  I'm of course going on the success we had this season using the principal that if someone comes in and does well they keep their place. 

Of course if a team is used to squad rotation, then the players will be more expecting of being dropped, but to score a hat trick in a semi-final and then be dropped is in any one's books a bit of a knock back.  I notice Moura came on after 66 minutes,  so he had a fair go, but still a bit unfair in my book.

 

 

[Mr Angry 1,554]

38 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

How to unmotivate a player/lose players' respect in one easy lesson.

 

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a manager who has led his team to a Champions League final, having been within 20 minutes of going out of the competition in 5 separate games, knows how to motivate his team.

[kirku 1,332]

5 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a manager who has led his team to a Champions League final, having been within 20 minutes of going out of the competition in 5 separate games, knows how to motivate his team.

Nonsense.

A guy on a message board knows much better and all he has to do is look at a teamsheet to instantly understand the incredibly complex nature of group psychology.

[kirku 1,332]

25 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

 

Hmmm.....let me think about that one.......yes.    It's common sense man management.  

Well this is pretty hilarious.

You've just doubled down on claiming to be a better man manager than Pochettino.

You're either a troll or one of the most deluded people with access to the internet. There is no third option.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Errr........Spurs lost.   Look, it's not rocket science and you don't have to look very far for other people reckoning playing Kane was a bad idea. Not played since April 9th, Spurs did ok without him when he was injured and Moura proved himself in the semi-final.

From the Telegraph -(before the match, not in hindsight)

With the rare luxury of a fully fit Tottenham squad, Mauricio Pochettino faces a selection dilemma up front fortoday's Champions League final.   Harry Kane is back from an ankle injury having not played since the first leg of the quarter-final against Manchester City on April 9, and has declared himself fit and available.  It is pretty widely agreed that Kane should go straight back into the starting lineup, given the galvanising effect his presence would have as well as his unquestionable impact on the pitch, but there are strong arguments against his inclusion that are worth considering.

Spurs made it this far without their talisman. All of their best performances in the knockout stages - the 3-0 win over Borussia Dortmund, the 4-3 defeat at City that saw them through the quarter-final, the extraordinary comeback at Ajax - came without Kane. Others stepped up in his absence. Son Heung-min has produced some of his best performances when Kane has been missing, while Lucas Moura, the hero in Amsterdam and at Barcelona in the group stage, would be hugely unfortunate to be dropped - as seems likely - if Kane returns to the team.

There is also an advantage to playing two pacey forwards in tandem. Son and Lucas ran riot at the Etihad, breaking at speed into the space vacated by attack-minded opposition full-backs. There should be plenty of that to exploit on Saturday, with Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson both encouraged to get forwards by Jurgen Klopp. Perhaps playing more a direct style, running into the channels behind full-backs, would be a better approach than Kane playing with his back to goal with the colossal Virgil van Dijk no doubt in close quarters.

Finally, having only returned to full training a week ago, it is fair to presume that Kane may struggle to last the full 90 minutes in Madrid, where it is forecast to be 29 degrees when the game kicks off at 9pm local time. Pochettino would certainly want Kane available if the match were to go to penalties but choosing him in the starting lineup could rule that possibility out before the match has even kicked off.

Edited June 2, 2019 by lake district canary

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

 

Hmmm.....let me think about that one.......yes.    It's common sense man management.  I'm of course going on the success we had this season using the principal that if someone comes in and does well they keep their place. 

Of course if a team is used to squad rotation, then the players will be more expecting of being dropped, but to score a hat trick in a semi-final and then be dropped is in any one's books a bit of a knock back.  I notice Moura came on after 66 minutes,  so he had a fair go, but still a bit unfair in my book.

 

 

Pochettino has just led his team to a Champions League final, in which they’ve had to deal with being behind and scraping through in multiple rounds, because of desire and hunger instilled into them by their manager - who I’d guess is an excellent motivator. He’s done all this with the same squad for nearly two years - Spurs haven’t signed anyone since January 2018.

Moura was dropped in favour of one of the best strikers on the planet. However harsh it was, most would have made the call.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Hoola Han Solo

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a manager who has led his team to a Champions League final, having been within 20 minutes of going out of the competition in 5 separate games, knows how to motivate his team.

Exactly. A boring old fart from Cumbria knows much better than a world-class manager who’s been in football for 30 years. Levy is now on the phone to LDC offering him the job.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Spurs lost because Liverpool are a better team. That they won without getting out of 2nd gear shows the difference in quality between the two teams at the moment.

The team selection was questionable however Spurs have looked far better when playing with a central striker (the comeback against Ajax came about once the formation was changed and Llorente came on) so not surprising at all that Kane started. The only question was who he would come in for and unfortunately for Moura, the system Spurs play better suited keeping Son, Alli and Eriksen in the team.

 

[Mr Angry 1,554]

I’m not debating whether it was a bad idea or not-other than to say that if they’d won, you’d have to agree that is was a good idea.

I’m saying that to question Pochettino’s motivational skills is ridiculous.

[lake district canary 4,531]

We've seen it before, a manager brings back a star player even though he's been out for months, because he is a star player, not because he is ready. No way could Kane have been match fit for the Champion's League Final and it showed. Poor decision on every level, motivational wise and fitness wise.

Pochettino may be great at motivating his players, I don't know, but this was a poor decision and if you look around there were plenty of people berforehand saying Kane should not start the match.  Motivationally, I am just going on what Moura might have thought.  "OK you're the boss, I'll maybe get some minutes later in the match".....but what a vote of confidence it would have been to have given him a starting place......it has worked for Farke this season.   

Or maybe rewarding players for good work is not the right way to do it.....

 

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

15 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Errr........Spurs lost.   Look, it's not rocket science and you don't have to look very far for other people reckoning playing Kane was a bad idea. Not played since April 9th, Spurs did ok without him when he was injured and Moura proved himself in the semi-final.

From the Telegraph -(before the match, not in hindsight)

With the rare luxury of a fully fit Tottenham squad, Mauricio Pochettino faces a selection dilemma up front fortoday's Champions League final.   Harry Kane is back from an ankle injury having not played since the first leg of the quarter-final against Manchester City on April 9, and has declared himself fit and available.  It is pretty widely agreed that Kane should go straight back into the starting lineup, given the galvanising effect his presence would have as well as his unquestionable impact on the pitch, but there are strong arguments against his inclusion that are worth considering.

Spurs made it this far without their talisman. All of their best performances in the knockout stages - the 3-0 win over Borussia Dortmund, the 4-3 defeat at City that saw them through the quarter-final, the extraordinary comeback at Ajax - came without Kane. Others stepped up in his absence. Son Heung-min has produced some of his best performances when Kane has been missing, while Lucas Moura, the hero in Amsterdam and at Barcelona in the group stage, would be hugely unfortunate to be dropped - as seems likely - if Kane returns to the team.

There is also an advantage to playing two pacey forwards in tandem. Son and Lucas ran riot at the Etihad, breaking at speed into the space vacated by attack-minded opposition full-backs. There should be plenty of that to exploit on Saturday, with Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson both encouraged to get forwards by Jurgen Klopp. Perhaps playing more a direct style, running into the channels behind full-backs, would be a better approach than Kane playing with his back to goal with the colossal Virgil van Dijk no doubt in close quarters.

Finally, having only returned to full training a week ago, it is fair to presume that Kane may struggle to last the full 90 minutes in Madrid, where it is forecast to be 29 degrees when the game kicks off at 9pm local time. Pochettino would certainly want Kane available if the match were to go to penalties but choosing him in the starting lineup could rule that possibility out before the match has even kicked off.

You’re right, it’s not rocket science. Look at the results (and performances) once Kane got injured. Didn’t win in the PL playing with a false nine (3 losses) yet won all (bar the final games 2-2) with a central striker on the pitch (Llorente). There was a very good performance against Dortmund in the CL but took the introduction of Llorente and Moura moved to his more suited position to spark the comeback against Ajax.

So no, not rocket science at all that Kane came back in, sensible decision unless he was going to start Llorente and that really would’ve been controversial.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

We've seen it before, a manager brings back a star player even though he's been out for months, because he is a star player, not because he is ready. No way could Kane have been match fit for the Champion's League Final and it showed. Poor decision on every level, motivational wise and fitness wise.

Pochettino may be great at motivating his players, I don't know, but this was a poor decision and if you look around there were plenty of people berforehand saying Kane should not start the match.  Motivationally, I am just going on what Moura might have thought.  "OK you're the boss, I'll maybe get some minutes later in the match".....but what a vote of confidence it would have been to have given him a starting place......it has worked for Farke this season.   

Or maybe rewarding players for good work is not the right way to do it.....

 

Pukki came straight back into the team after injury...

[Herman 9,754]

14 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Spurs lost because Liverpool are a better team. That they won without getting out of 2nd gear shows the difference in quality between the two teams at the moment.

The team selection was questionable however Spurs have looked far better when playing with a central striker (the comeback against Ajax came about once the formation was changed and Llorente came on) so not surprising at all that Kane started. The only question was who he would come in for and unfortunately for Moura, the system Spurs play better suited keeping Son, Alli and Eriksen in the team.

 

I feel that neither side got out of second gear, whether through nerves, tiredness or some other reason. Liverpool are a bit better overall, but not by a massive difference. Spurs only had one player in Son who was trying something different,but his final ball was usually a waste. 

[Aggy 754]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

I feel that neither side got out of second gear, whether through nerves, tiredness or some other reason. Liverpool are a bit better overall, but not by a massive difference. Spurs only had one player in Son who was trying something different,but his final ball was usually a waste. 

I think lack of match sharpness after three weeks off mixed with the heat over there has a lot to say for it.

Also think the penalty/goal had a big impact too; Liverpool’s midfield was extremely unadventurous - because they could be. Win the ball, get it out to the full backs and put crosses in to the middle whilst the midfield stays solid and protects the defence. That’s how to kill a game when you’re 1-0 up and you’re not fully match sharp/too hot to play your usual way. If it had been 0-0 after twenty minutes I dare say it would have lead to a much more open and exciting game.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Aggy

[AJ 1,218]

The better team won. Spurs had the lions share of the ball but did nothing with it. Liverpool took two chances and did enough to win the game. Might have been very different if Liverpool hadn’t scored so early,  but they were able to sit back on that lead and Spurs did nothing until the last ten minutes to get back into the game.

Edited June 2, 2019 by AJ

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

I feel that neither side got out of second gear, whether through nerves, tiredness or some other reason. Liverpool are a bit better overall, but not by a massive difference. Spurs only had one player in Son who was trying something different,but his final ball was usually a waste. 

Liverpool are more than just a bit better. They weren’t last night but they didn’t need to be. As the PL table shows, they’re 26 points better and that’s huge.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

I thought the best two centre forwards on the pitch were on that streaker.

[lake district canary 4,531]

It was a gamble to play Kane, a pure and simple gamble.   Pochettino says it was done totally because of "analytics and information", so where does motivation come in?    It boils down tp the motivation of saying "hooray we've got our leader back" (overated imo) - over the motivation of showing trust in the players that got them to the final.  But then, Pochettino says it was done becausde of "analytics", but to play a player who hasn't played for 8 weeks at the expense of a player who scored a hat trick in the previous cup match to get them to the final was just a bit desperate (imo).

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by lake district canary

[Herman 9,754]

Fair point Zac. The stats don't lie. 😀

Quality wise I don't think the gap between the two is as massive as the points difference shows. Form and consistency on the other hand..... 

[Aggy 754]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

It was a gamble to play Kane, a pure and simple gamble.   Pochettino says it was done totally because of "analytics and information", so where does motivation come in?    It boils down tp the motivation of saying "hooray we've got our leader back" (overated imo) - over the motivation of showing trust in the players that got them to the final.  But then, Pochettino says it was done becausde of "analytics", but to play a player who hasn't played for 8 weeks at the expense of a player who scored a hat trick in the previous cup match to get them to the final was just a bit desperate (imo).

 

Because Kane needs half a decent chance and he’ll score. He didn’t get half a decent chance. Nobody else did either really, so nothing to do with Kane vs Moura or Llorente, everything to do with Spurs not being good enough in the build up. 65 per cent possession but only 8 shots on target, 7 of which were after the 80th minute. They didn’t make Becker make a save until past the 70th minute.

Kane was on the pitch for the full game. In 80 minutes with Kane they mustered 1 shot on target, in the last 10 minutes with Kane still on the pitch they managed 7.

Kane doesn’t sound like the problem...

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

Well what a shocking borefest that turned out to be.

After the bonkers results the two teams achieved in previous rounds I was hoping for a swashbuckling match but should have known better as many finals don't live up to all the pre-match hype.

Real pity as it could have showcased English football at it's best.

[Mr Angry 1,554]

In the context of the most important game in their history, playing with their top scorer in the last 5 seasons rather than a right winger playing as a makeshift centre forward was absolutely the correct decision.

[Well b back 3,200]

On 02/06/2019 at 13:09, lake district canary said:

 

Hmmm.....let me think about that one.......yes.    It's common sense man management.  I'm of course going on the success we had this season using the principal that if someone comes in and does well they keep their place. 

Of course if a team is used to squad rotation, then the players will be more expecting of being dropped, but to score a hat trick in a semi-final and then be dropped is in any one's books a bit of a knock back.  I notice Moura came on after 66 minutes,  so he had a fair go, but still a bit unfair in my book.

 

 

So let’s look at this as if it was NCFC. Pukki was injured and Rhodes was brought in against Blackburn. Rhodes scored a hat trick against Blackburn, however we needed a win against Villa who needed a win to get into the playoffs. Would you be happy to play Rhodes or would you want Pukki back ?. Kane is one of the most lethal strikers in world football and every Spurs supporter I know was praying for Kane to be fit. I suspect every Spurs player ( other than Mouras ) were given a boost when they realised Kane would be fit.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I suspect Farke would play the player in form, not the one who has been out injured. Kane was out for nearly eight weeks - could not have been as sharp as he needed to be and as much as you know spurs fans that wanted him in, there were plenty of comments around from spurs fans saying he shouldn't play.  Kane at his best is a top striker, but when he is not on it, he is one of the least effective there is - he had a barren spell a while ago where he looked like he would never score again.  

Maybe he boosted the players, maybe not, but I suspect that more damage was done in that selection  choice than just affecting the champions league final.  It was a gamble that didn't work - and bringing in star players who are not 100% match fit has so many times in the past been seen as a bad idea.  Play the fittest players and play the ones that have been doing the business.  Hat trick in the previous round? Play him!  Maybe Pocchettino doesn't like Moura (there have been murmurings) but he has probably damaged that relationship beyond help - and maybe others will see that and think, oh, so this manager does not stick with players who do well.